TRPG General Chat

2:01 PM

Also, the first article in that same series was also terrible writing fail. The story of D&D's "past" look like two paragraphs of Gygax and then wall-to-wall D&D3.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@alexp thats one hell of a 4e quote

Alex P

I think it's a mix of provincialism (only really knowing tabletop gaming from what you and your group play, or from what your boss tells you about it) and the plague of access-based journalism that's destroying old media as well.

When all of your articles are just based on the fact that Dancey is willing to talk your ear off, of course they're gonna look like Dancey's blog.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@alexp you mean when they actually published articles in "issues"

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith As opposed to articles with issues?

Alex P

When they were like a monthly without videos, yeah.

Joshua Aslan Smith

2:04 PM

well about a year or so ago they just stopped putting out issues and had a general whatever to articles and really focus on videos and blogs now

Alex P

I don't hate Zero Punctuation or anything, but I feel like they just couldn't deal with the culture change it brought.

Joshua Aslan Smith

I really liked ZP at the time, but I completely agree that ZP was the horseman of the apocalypse for the Escapist

basically they looked at the site traffic ZP got and they were like WE NEED MOAR

so you have all kinds of dumb videos as their bread and butter (jimquisition for example)

Alex P

What's weird is that they had Alan Varney (who is an actual RPG writer) to cover RPGs for them.

And they started just relying on their random news guys instead.

BESW

Maybe Snowflame outsourced.

Joshua Aslan Smith

also to necro an earlier comment about dragonage, my beef with the series is it gets really generically dark fantasy a lot of the time

the blight, arguably the most original (but not really original) aspect of dragon age takes second fiddle to fantasy racism and palace intrigue

Alex P

2:07 PM

i think what killed it is that there was like a year-long gap between the first book and the second.

And the first book didn't even let you play Wardens.

So there's like no chance of actually hitting the video game's popularity bubble.

Joshua Aslan Smith

right, wardens being not super original, but still one of the best parts of the dragonage world

Alex P

And then Dragon Age 2 failed to really make a big impression on the video-game community.

Joshua Aslan Smith

Tabletop (wil wheaton) even did a DA short adventure on Tabletop and it still looked really boring

Alex P

Well, Wardens are your only window into the world in the games. So it's worse than doing Star Wars without Jedi by like an order of magnitude.

If I picked up DA RPG the month it came out, what would I do with it?

How would my excitement about the video game translate into RPG play?

Joshua Aslan Smith

tell a D&D story with DAs very not interesting or fun mechanics

BESW

2:10 PM

Okay, so I went from the Boston Molasses Flood to permissible liturgical uses of must.

Alex P

To me, the setting entirely rests on Wardens and Mages. They're the PC roles that touch the bigger-picture world-building stuff.

wax eagle

@BESW thats...an odd jump

Joshua Aslan Smith

yes, also are wardens like a class in DA rpg? thats weird because in the game its more of a profession and you choose a class from there

Alex P

@JoshuaAslanSmith They're not a class. They're a thing you get later somehow, I forget. But I think you have to be a certain level,which is why they put them in book two.

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith the game's class structure is odd...the "classes" function more like prestige classes/PP/ED type choices

BESW

2:12 PM

@waxeagle It's pretty interesting, though.

wax eagle

@AlexP drinking demon blood is not for the faint of heart

Alex P

@waxeagle It's true. Canonically it does just kill most people.

Magician

@AlexP Please tell me the PCs who want to become wardens don't have to make a check to see if they survive.

Alex P

Basically I think they shot themselves in the foot by doing a BECMI structure with months and months between releases in, like, 2010 or whenever they were doing it. They could get away with 2-month staggered releases. But "More to come at an indeterminate time..." was kind of a death sentence for the line.

@Magician I don't think they do. It's not that kind of game.

BESW

@Magician Ooh, ooh! Maybe it's just a check to avoid falling into an incurable coma, or going mad and becoming an NPC?

Alex P

2:14 PM

IIRC it's fairly rules-light in a halfway-OD&D-way but not, like arbitrarily lethal or highly random or anything.

Magician

It is a special kind of game where you can die during character creation.

Alex P

@Magician Enh, that actually worked okay for old Traveller, as far as I know.

BESW

@Magician [designs a game where you must die during CharGen]

Magician

@AlexP That's the one I'm referring to, yes. And it's special, even if it works.

Alex P

Also, I think it worked fine for Burning Wheel's "Brutal Life" chart (you can't die, but you can get seriously messed up).

Magician

2:16 PM

@BESW Rather, the game starts with your death. Then through flashbacks you discover how that happened.

Stop giving me ideas :P

Joshua Aslan Smith

@alexp they should have made it a save or die check

BESW

@Magician I'm pretty sure the chat talked about doing a backwards-from-the-end narrative several months ago.

Alex P

@BESW Well, that's easy. A game about ghosts.

BESW

Ah, right.

May 17 at 15:17, by BESW

The basic conundrum: "How can I continue playing a PC indefinitely while still getting him a Happily Ever After?"

@Zachiel was the catalyst for that conversation.

Zachiel

Did you summon me?

BESW

2:20 PM

[points up] Remember that conversation?

Zachiel

I just realized I need to write and print accompainment letters before giving out CVs.

@BESW I think I quoted it yesterday

Alex P

@BESW Clearly the solution is to play Baron von Munchaussen.

Even if you died of old age in a story, you can just be like, "Then I got better."

And the meta-story is that you're just sitting around drinking and BSing with your buddies forever.

Joshua Aslan Smith

io9.com/…

Zachiel

@BESW Wraith?

Joshua Aslan Smith

Check that link, supposedly a top 10 list of D&D monsters

Zachiel

2:25 PM

@Magician Snowball?

Magician

@Zachiel Hmm?

Zachiel

@Magician RPG, starts with what happens at the end and goes back in time scene by scene to find out why.

Magician

@Zachiel Interesting, haven't heard of it.

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith Built with solutions to anything the party throws at it, designed to screw non-casters, has the sole purpose of making every encounter with a described object take ten minutes to resolve, designed to screw with non-casters, has the sole purpose of making every encounter with an empty space take ten minutes to resolve...

Magician

@BESW Oy, gelatinous cubes have their place in a dungeon. It is at the top of a spiral staircase.

BESW

2:29 PM

Some kind of horrible in-joke gone viral, an excuse to keep railroading the plot even if the party manages to kill the villain ahead of time, an (I hope) unintentionally racist and sexist society whose interesting elements were undermined by being unable to play them without ignoring everything interesting about them, a walking save-or-die machine, and a monster designed to kill any party not prepared enough to trivialize it.

@Magician I put them in 10x10 pits 40 feet deep with a metal treasure chest at the bottom.

Not saying I haven't used most of these myself, but... a lot of them are really just walking GM agendas.

Magician

To this day, the most hilarious D&D session I've ever run. Gelatinous cubes are kind of slow. Gelatinous cubes sliding down the stairs at an every increasing pace eventually overtake running adventurers... Who can then shout encouragements to their faster colleagues as they're taken for the ride.

BESW

They're iconic because they're designed to trivialize your agency, which makes them memorable.

@Magician That does sound amusing. Hrmmm.

An 8-foot-wide spiral staircase with a wide, slow twist and one-foot-wide, flat-on-top continuous handrails on either side.

You have to navigate the steps; the cube gets a slide.

(Anyone who gets the bright idea to just duck is rewarded with a smug sense of satisfaction, followed by a baby 5'x5' cube bumping down the stairs after its parent.)

wax eagle

one of the 4e gel cubes spawn minions

Zachiel

@BESW ? - Mind flayers? - a drow/kender mashup - bodak - tarrasque?

BESW

@waxeagle And many 3.5 oozes duplicate when subjected to slashing damage.

Zachiel

2:38 PM

@BESW I once ducked a rolling stone trap.

BESW

@Zachiel In order: owlbear, lich, drow, mind flayer, tarrasque.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw I think 4e handled cubes pretty well

BESW

@Zachiel From this article linked earlier.

Magician

@BESW That's just mean :D. Don't forget to start a fight with unrelated monsters on the stairs first.

And have someone waiting below, obviously.

BESW

Naturally.

Alex P

2:39 PM

So, I went to the Escapist to find those quotes for you guys. SO MANY ADS.

Zachiel

@BESW Ah I see, mind flayers aren't as bad as bodaks to be honest

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle yes one or two types of cubes basically split when they reach bloodied into two monsters each with half of the remaining hp total

Zachiel

Mainly because you find bodaks way to early

BESW

@Zachiel Aye, but I'm just responding to the list provided.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw and I appreciate it

Alex P

2:40 PM

I mean, I read Salon, which is a horrific adstravaganza as well. But I can forgive that more because it's kinda in "Journalism is dying because there is no way to make money off of it" land.

Metool

Good morning.

Joshua Aslan Smith

I honestly think only cubes, mind flayers, and beholders stand out

Alex P

@JoshuaAslanSmith "Stand out" as iconic or "stand out" as deadly/annoying?

Joshua Aslan Smith

iconic?

Magician

You can't have D&D without beholders and illithids.

Joshua Aslan Smith

2:42 PM

you do have a good point about he emphasis of the article

like lich is on that list

freakin lich, least d&d original monster ever

Alex P

@JoshuaAslanSmith I don't know about that. We talked about the inspirations the other day and they're pretty bare.

Also, less original than "I just copied this from some sci-fi book I liked?" (E.g. Displacer Beast.)

BESW

@AlexP If you mean the Justinian thing, that was too narrow a focus to generalize to the lich concept.

Alex P

@BESW True.

BESW

We were only looking at religious/mythic justification for considering immortality evil, nothing about phylacteries or the like.

Aaron

@JoshuaAslanSmith I would disagree it is a very good idea. It is just overdone.'

Alex P

2:45 PM

@BESW The phylactery aspect was a part of it. Dissociating the soul from the body, remember?

Joshua Aslan Smith

@aaron what are you specifically referring to?

Aaron

If you hover over my statement it was a reply to your Lich statement.

Joshua Aslan Smith

THIS IS MADNESS

Zachiel

@AlexP Beholders... deadly? I've never seen one consistently pose a threat to a party. It usually dies before it's its turn

And its CDs are ridicolously low

Not to talk about its HPs and AC

And +7 to hit... +7... sigh. Large size.

Alex P

That's one D&D edition.

The famous stuff didn't get famous just because of 3e.

2

BESW

2:51 PM

In nearly every case, 3e overused the famous stuff because it was already famous.

wax eagle

@AlexP that might actually be one of the more important statements in this discussion

art, marketing, novels and gameplay all play a role in determining this kind of iconic nature

Joshua Aslan Smith

just went to look up 4e beholders

Alex P

I mean, half of this stuff is basically just grandfathered into the 3rd Edition MM. When do you actually see a mimic or jelly or rust monster in a 3e adventure?

Joshua Aslan Smith

theres a lvl 8 brute, beholder zombie

BESW

Many of them are iconic because the very first time they appeared had something else special going for it.

wax eagle

2:53 PM

@JoshuaAslanSmith that thing sucks

it's literally a reskinned hulking zombie

Joshua Aslan Smith

I can imagine, a beholder as anything other than artillery makes no snese

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith Controller makes more sense than artillery.

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith he shows up in an interesting encounter, and then is boring as heck

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw maybe, but like 80 percent are artillery even if they have controller powers

Alex P

Joshua Aslan Smith

2:55 PM

simply because beholders are meant to be deadly and controllers in 4e as a monster role are about debuffing/locking you down for other onsters to kill you

BESW

@AlexP That guy on the left had to go and ruin the family portrait. Again.

Alex P

wax eagle

(he's the primary baddy in one of the coolest set pieces in a temple made of dreamstone...)

Joshua Aslan Smith

except they are all different and so would be trying to murder one another within moments

BESW

@AlexP That guy with the feet, on the right? Makes me laugh every time.

Alex P

2:56 PM

These are from back when D&D hit the Peak Beholder.

In 2nd Edition, IIRC.

Undead beholder? Check.

Beholder who hits you with his giant tongue? Check.

Miniature beholder and even smaller miniature beholder? Check.

BESW

@AlexP I've seen all the art in that second set in 3.5. Doesn't mean it wasn't recycled, but it looks very much like the standard 3.5 art style to me.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw heres a good example of a beholder being artillery, but having control powers

wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/database.aspx

Alex P

Beholder wizard (the one without the central eye)? Check.

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith lol, that just links to the database...gotta link the page specifically

Alex P

Crustacean beholder.

@BESW Yeah, you're right, that second one is 3e.

BESW

2:58 PM

And I don't have a DDI subscription anymore, anyway.

Joshua Aslan Smith

ah sorry

Alex P

It is not part of Peak Beholder Times.

Here's the right picture:

Joshua Aslan Smith

and yeah I dont know how to link to an entry in D&DI

Alex P

Yo, dawg, I heard you liked beholders so much I put one in your TREE.

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith right click, open in new tab

(or if you're in firefox, there are frame options, open frame in new tab works well)

BESW

3:00 PM

@AlexP Peak Beholder is a cozy town, population 1,200, perched just below the summit of Mount Beholder. They have a single newspaper, the Peak Beholder Times.

4

wax eagle

@BESW we are so adventuring there next week.

Alex P

@BESW That newspaper is way, waaaay too attached to the phrase "eyewitness report."

BESW

@AlexP The local news station is saving up for a totally unnecessary news chopper, because the owner feels they need an eye in the sky.

@waxeagle I expect reports of the havoc wreaked.

Magician

Ah, beholders. I once had a beholder city run by a human slave of the dead Eye Tyrant. The audience chamber of the "ruler" had an aura of fear and confusion, and a giant curved mirror. Any beholders seeking to speak to the Tyrant would be terrified yet comforted by the thought that it looked just like them, only meaner. It lasted for decades...

Zachiel

@BESW Eye would like to get a copy

Magician

3:04 PM

The party infiltrated said city inside a dead beholder, emulating all its eye rays via magic and stealth, with the fighter moving its mouth as it talked. As you do.

wax eagle

@BESW It's going to take longer than a week to figure out how the city works mechanically and to populate it properly. Not sure if 4e is the proper game for it...so tempted to play if for laughs and set the next RFS game there...

BESW

@Magician ...I'm getting images of the beholder version of Crackle's cousin.

....

Maybe Ross won't figure out that's a pony reference.

Magician

I had to look it up. So now I'm not sure which one of us should be sorry.

BESW

@waxeagle I'd probably go for a Hidden Almanac vibe.

(Post describing Hidden Almanac genesis.)

@jadarnel27 Yawp.

wax eagle

omg that looks amazing, and it just started so I don't have to go back through an eternal backlog!

BESW

3:15 PM

Ursula Vernon is astonishingly prolific.

She's currently running a popular Scholastic illustrated-novella series, getting her Hugo-winning graphic novel published in omnibus format, self-publishing a novella her agent can't spin, working on at least two other novels, doing a weekly cheap microwave food podcast, and writing a monthly gardening article, and Hidden Almanac just sort of... happened... a few days ago.

Joshua Aslan Smith

lol

I would love to infilitrate a beholder city

they should all wear fedoras and panama hats

BESW

With holes cut for the stalks?

wax eagle

@BESW someone did a KS for minis for her series didn't they?

Magician

@BESW Naturally. And sunglasses. Lots of sunglasses.

BESW

@waxeagle If so, I didn't see.

Joshua Aslan Smith

3:19 PM

Giant main eye monocles

BESW

I did managed to catch the omnibus kickstarter.

wax eagle

@BESW kickstarter.com/projects/1234535943/digger-omnibus not minis...

I was thinking of a different on that had forest critter minis

BESW

Yeah, that's the one I got on.

Zachiel

@BESW that would explain them being unable to point all their rays in a specific direction that's not upwards.

wax eagle

I think you probably linked it in here which is why the name is familiar

BESW

3:21 PM

I got Brian hooked on Digger quite some time ago.

And I mention Ursula pretty regularly; her works have been an inspiration for my settings and characters in many ways.

jadarnel27

I'm not confident that I know how to properly respond to "yawp", @BESW. So I'll just say...hello!

Zachiel

@jadarnel27 (In @Metool's voice) Bark.

Joshua Aslan Smith

lol

hmmm should we continue our roll for shoes @waxeagle @aaron ?

jadarnel27

@Zachiel I...uh, will note that for future reference.

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith I don't think I can today

jadarnel27

3:24 PM

=)

BESW

@jadarnel27 I too am not a bit tamed—I too am untranslatable; / I sound my barbaric yawp over the roofs of the world.

2

Joshua Aslan Smith

hokay

BESW

Or, if you prefer, "yopp."

When they got to the top,
The lad cleared his throat and he shouted out "YOPP!"
And that Yopp... That one small, extra Yopp put it over!

Joshua Aslan Smith

Walt Whit wrote some great poems

jadarnel27

Excellent stuff.

Beholders made me sadface a lot when I played the old Baldur's Gate II PC game.

Joshua Aslan Smith

3:25 PM

thats why we named a bridge after him though I think he would be saddened by the physical areas the bridge connects

wax eagle

@BESW also "I am a yop, I like hop from finger top to finger top, I hop from left to right and then hop hop I hop right back again."

Zachiel

@jadarnel27 Oh it's not a reply to "yapw". It's just a different word to throw you into confusion XD

wax eagle

why do I like to hop hop hop? I do not know go ask your pop.

BESW

I have Whitman on the mind because I just read White's scathing inditement of his influence on "hordes of uninspired scribblers."

jadarnel27

@Zachiel Congratulations on your success, then!

Zachiel

3:27 PM

@jadarnel27 The one guarding the treasure in the kuo-toan city was great

Joshua Aslan Smith

heh

wax eagle

and apparently I've got Seuss on the brain today.

which is never really a bad thing

Zachiel

And I think it was Wark. Sorry @Metool

Metool

@Zachiel Kerf.

jadarnel27

@Zachiel Oh wow, I don't remember it in that kind of detail! I just remember my people were always hitting each other instead of the bad guys when I fought beholders.

Zachiel

3:29 PM

I want to think that's the metool's word for "no problem".

@jadarnel27 Oh I think I disabled that. And still couldn't kill Kangaxx

BESW

9. Do not affect a breezy manner.
The volume of writing is enormous, these days, and much of it has a sort of windiness about it, almost as though the author were in a state of euphoria. "Spontaneous me," sang Whitman, and, in his innocence, let loose the hordes of uninspired scribblers who would one day confuse spontaneity with genius.

- Strunk & White's Elements of Style.

@PearsonArtPhoto Hey.

jadarnel27

You could disable confusion, @Zachiel? I don't remember that. That would have been super helpful.

Zachiel

@jadarnel27 I think you can heavily reduce the duration

BESW

@waxeagle My dad liked reading Horton Hears a Who to me, because it opens with my birthday.

I generally prefer Frog and Toad, or Pooh, but Seuss has a firm and beloved spot in my library.

wax eagle

@BESW we just got some frog and toad books on Sunday. looking forward to checking them out

Pooh we've had though we're not to reading chapter books much yet

BESW

3:42 PM

Frog and Toad contain some of the quietest, most profound discussions of being and togetherness that I've ever seen outside of a holy text.

Although "discussion" isn't the right word. Meditation, maybe.

jadarnel27

Do you two work with kids (or have young children)? Or do you just like children's books a lot?

I feel like that question sounds judgmental, though it's not intended to be.

BESW

I come from a family of teachers, I have a history of loving to read from an early age and was lucky enough to be exposed to books that are still worth reading now, and I'm working with a community-building program that has a big emphasis on working with kids and youth.

wax eagle

@jadarnel27 I've got a pair of young kids. Reading to kids is basically a second job :)

and my wife's mom was a grade school librarian so books have a very special place in our home

BESW

I spend more time facilitating training, because I'm not able to make the commitment to work with the kids for as long as they need, but I do assist and run shorter events sometimes, especially with the junior youth (11 to 14). Frog and Toad and Abel's Island are common go-tos for me.

I'm a storyteller and an artist, and I play to my strengths.

@waxeagle We got rid of half our books when we moved a few years ago, and I could still easily cover a living room wall with solid shelves of books.

wax eagle

@BESW yeah we need to pare down, but I'm attached...even to my textbooks

we need to acquire some new bookshelves though, too many of our books are still in boxes from our move over a year ago

Alex P

3:54 PM

@waxeagle I kept about 1/3 of my textbooks from school. Thinking I could use them later.

BESW

Our only used bookstore on island shut down a few years ago, and now it's almost impossible to shift books once we have them.

Alex P

Right now I have a small child dumping things from my bookshelf continually.

Goodbye, random fantasy stuff I read in high school! You will be quite beat-up by the time he is four.

wax eagle

@AlexP srsly.

kids are sadly rather abusive to books. We just had to replace our copy of Moo, Baa, La la la.

(which btw is the best toddler book evar)

BESW

Must be after my time.

wax eagle

though it has competition from the rest of Mrs. Boynton's library

Alex P

3:56 PM

My son has one we call his "chewing book." It's horrible as an actual book. So we kinda just let him chew it.

BESW

I had Pat the Bunny, which from then to this day confuses me.

Alex P

We got him a bunch of Russian children's books so he would know my native language. But, well, Russian children's books seem to be GARBAGE.

wax eagle

@AlexP these books play a valuable role in proper gum development

a certain amount of cellulose is necessary. #badscience

@BESW amazon.com/Moo-Baa-La/dp/067144901X/…

Alex P

Like, I don't know why. There were a bunch of people back in the day doing the Dr. Seuss kinda thing -- you know, kinda zany, witty, full of imagery -- but all of the children's books we've got shipped to us seem to be more on the "produced by a chatbot" side.

Weird snippets of random nursery rhymes.

@waxeagle The cover is adorable. :D

wax eagle

@AlexP if you haven't picked up any of her books I recommend them all

BESW

3:59 PM

(Is it a directive? That's rather aggressive, isn't it, ordering me to fondle the livestock. Is it descriptive of the story's narrative? The book's textile gimmick is apparent, sure you can do better with a title than that. Is it the name of the bunny? The text of the book never mentions the bunny's name.)

wax eagle

lol

Alex P

The bunny isn't livestock, it's a pet.

BESW

...I have always been an overanalyzer.

Alex P

Also, the highlight of that book is CLEARLY Daddy's Scratchy Face.

BESW

@AlexP Yes. This is truth.

As a slightly older child, I shunned any TV show or other IP that seemed to exist primarily to shill a product--except Captain Planet, which I knew was foetid pap but felt I should support for its message. That lasted a couple months.

Alex P

4:03 PM

As a child, I really liked cartoon villains. Even the really stupid ones, I think.

BESW

(I was seven, maybe eight, at the time.)

Alex P

I think it's a bit of the Hugo Boss effect, to be honest.

Any cartoon villain with a cool haircut or an awesome uniform.

(Err, is it a uniform if only you wear it? I guess "costume" is the correct word.)

BESW

Villains are proactive, with goals and the agency to pursue them.

More than can be said for most heroes, who basically wait around for the villain to do something they can react to.

Even Fate falls into that trap with its GM advice.

Trajan

@BESW For the heroes to be proactive, it would basically needs the world to be full of vilains

BESW

@Trajan Nuh-uh.

For the heroes to be proactive they need non-villain-oriented goals.

7

Alex P

4:07 PM

I feel like a lot of the 90s cartoon thinking is breaking out of "heroes" in order to have more proactive characters. I don't mean the "anti-hero" thing. But, like, characters who aren't really about being moral saviors but just do stuff. Because it's fun and they are crazy.

BESW

@AlexP Aye. Terribly poorly done, but... aye.

Alex P

@BESW Or the villain has to literally be stasis.

BESW

Like, Trogdor's werecat Ajani. His goals are to integrate into temple life, find a comfortable place in the political scene, and become as good a priest of Bastet as he can.

Alex P

This is one of the ways Star Wars succeeds, I think. It's not a lone bad guy shaking down the UN for a million dollars. It's the Empire, all of it. There's still a status-quo vibe in the sense of "restore what was lost," but the protagonists aren't literally just trying to prevent change.

Also all of the actual ideas pretty much come from grand strategist leader figures off-screen.

You get the stolen plans to Yavin and there are people there to tell you "Now you have to shoot the exhaust port."

BESW

He is opposed in these goals by prejudice from the priestesses (embodied in the antagonism of his duty assignment officer), the political and religious unrest (embodied by Babylon and the Horus priests), and his own inexperience and lowly origins as a subsistence hunter.

jadarnel27

4:11 PM

@BESW and @waxeagle - thanks for your replies =) I also love books and reading, so I was just curious. Though I discovered my love for those things much later (in middle school), so I don't have as much connection to children's books.

Alex P

You save Han and by the time you're done, Mon Mothma and Admiral Akbar have a totally sweet plan for how you are going to save the day. Et cetera.

BESW

@AlexP I have used this model to great success in multiple campaigns.

@jadarnel27 It's never too late to go back to the classics.

Alex P

@BESW I think it's important to have goals that don't all have a moral dimension. Makes the protagonist a credible person.

Plus, we totally care about people even when they're doing things just for themselves.

BESW

You can probably skip the Boxcar Children, Ramona, the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew; they're good, but only Beverly Cleary's stuff has any staying power. But Frog and Toad, Pooh, the Prydain Chronicles, Dinotopia...

Alex P

If they are also straight-up heroes, it makes the self-sacrificing part of their nature more apparent and interesting. Because they have a regular life and all these things they want for themselves, but sometimes they give them up for others.

BESW

4:15 PM

There are many "children's" books that have a lot to offer to adults, which adult fare is too embarrassed to talk about so openly for fear of seeming naive or trite.

@AlexP One thing that makes Captain America compelling in the right hands.

KitFox

Want to hang out and talk about writing? Interested in National Novel Writing Month? Come to the Weekly Writer's Chat in The Overlook Hotel! Chat starts in about 30 minutes (1700 UTC). See you then!

@AlexP Like Jane Foster in The Avengers and Thor, the comics not the movies.

They screwed her character up in the movies.

wax eagle

@KitFox what timing! perfect transition :)

KitFox

bows Now I've got to hit the other chats. See you there?

wax eagle

@KitFox sadly not today. gotta go hang with my kiddo, it's his turn to be the birthday boy at school today

KitFox

Oooh! Fun! I hope you get cake.

wax eagle

4:29 PM

@KitFox should be enough, apparently birthday signals got crossed so we're double booked today

KitFox

Eek!

Zachiel

4:43 PM

@waxeagle birthday streams?

wax eagle

@Zachiel aye

BESW

There are no presents; only ZUUL.

Zachiel

Oh, lovely English Language SE comment. "I would call 'a group of people who move a lot' excavators."

Aaron

I is back.

Joshua Aslan Smith

4:58 PM

I too have returned

Metool

Good day, fine people of RPG General Chat.

Alex P

hello

jadarnel27

My DM asked us (the players) If we would all switch our character classes to classes from PHB1, to make gameplay simpler for all of us. Or, more like he asked if we were interested in / willing to do that.

Joshua Aslan Smith

hmmm dragon mag for this month just dropped and within they propose a optional rule add-on for PCs called Traits which really reminds me of Fate's fate point reward system for following aspects

jadarnel27

Is it true that the classes in PHB1 are simpler / easier to use?

Joshua Aslan Smith

5:09 PM

@jadarnel27 why does the source of your class matter? Also is the dm saying to basically only use PHB1

@jadarnel27 I would argue any of the essentials classes "Heroes of [insert here]" (with exceptions) are actually the easier to play and to run for.

wax eagle

@jadarnel27 4e? or 3.x?

jadarnel27

Sorry - we're playing 4e.

wax eagle

agreed with Josh, Heroes of Adjective Noun are definitely the "easy to play" variants

jadarnel27

@Josh I'm not sure why the source is important to him, he just mentioned this at the end of the last session. I haven't had a chance to talk to him more about it.

You mentioned those books last time - I need to look into those.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@jadarnel27 I'd be very wary as often such a thing does not mean just picking a class that debuted in those books (but having access to materials from other books and sources) but actually saying you can only use PHB1 materials (usually without erratta!)

I find its usually helpful to try to talk to the DM about what his issues are with the party/players rather than what he is trying to do. Often the source of the request can be addressed through other means. For example he may feel PCs are too powerful or that turns (in combat) take too long and those can be addressed without having to force class changes.

wax eagle

5:13 PM

@jadarnel27 PHB1 is kinda terrible tbh.

the limitation is driven by bad experiences with contentsplosion from earlier editions

Joshua Aslan Smith

yep and while there was a little bit of feat power creep, I think it was for the best and anyone playing know just knows which feats to avoid anyway

jadarnel27

@Josh I will make sure and talk to him from that type of perspective. Hopefully we can straighten things out via good communication (we are twins, after all - we should be able to work it out).

Alex P

@waxeagle Didin't it have shiny fixed fighters and warlords and stuff, though?

Metool

@jadarnel27 Ooh, twins.

Joshua Aslan Smith

Yeah, almost every instance of that sort of request seemed to stem from power balance issues on the DM side

wax eagle

5:15 PM

@AlexP it did, but the rules were half baked

jadarnel27

I think it's more than other thing you mentioned (that our turns are taking too long), @Josh.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@alexp it had the new, better 4e fighter and warlord, only every single class from PHB1 has benefited from supplemental materials especially martial power, divine power, heroes of, etc.

wax eagle

ok time for me to dash

Joshua Aslan Smith

@jadarnel27 I've experienced that too, are players having buyer's dilemma? I.E. they take forever to decide what they do on a turn or just aren't paying attention?

jadarnel27

We're all just brand new to playing. I think he's impatient for us to get faster at it, and thus is trying to "solve the problem."

Joshua Aslan Smith

5:18 PM

4e can move fast if everyone pays attention to everyone else's turn (and are actively thinking about what they will do as the situation evolves). But unfortunately just 1 player can throw a wrench in the gears and take forever, and then everyone else tunes out and so each turn is:

1. whats happened, 2. asking everyone else what they should do 3. taking turn. Repeat.

ah gotcha

jadarnel27

I think what you just described is a big part of our problem.

We're not paying enough attention to what's happening in battle.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@jadarnel27 here is what I was mentioning earlier

wizards.com/dnd/essentials.aspx

Zachiel

U'd suggest you to avoid specific claqsses with out-of turn mechanics at first. Sadly, I don't know if any defender qualifies.

jadarnel27

And not planning ahead regarding what we should do in response.

Joshua Aslan Smith

for players any book that has "Hereos of" is part of the essentials line.

@zachiel yeah but there are easier to run defenders than say a battlemind or paladin

jadarnel27

5:21 PM

Haha, Battlemind is what I'm playing =P

Joshua Aslan Smith

for example the Knight class (its a subclass of fighter) from heroes of the fallen lands doesn't mark but has an aura 1 provided by a stance that if anyone shifts away or attacks anyone other than you while in it you get to punish

jadarnel27

Although I'm not one of the ones slowing down combat (I don't think).

I have some experience with tabletop RPGs.

So it's not quite as brand new to me.

Joshua Aslan Smith

In my experience its usually people playing controllers or arcane strikers that slow things down, sometimes granting attacks to someone not paying attention (warlord) can also really slow it down

jadarnel27

We've got someone who's playing a Deva Shaman, and they don't understand their powers or when to use them.

That's part of the problem.

And we've got a Ranger that's never paying attention.

Now that we're talking about this, I feel like those are the big issues at hand.

Zachiel

The shaman should get a lesson on powers, as for the ranger... well, that's a problem with the player, who's already playing a PHB1 class

Maybe giving an easier class to the shaman, like one that needs less positioning with the spirit and all, could partly solve the problem. Is he struggling at understanding when he's allowed to do things or when he should do things?

jadarnel27

5:38 PM

She is brand new to RPGs, and I think her main thing is understanding when she's allowed to do things.

I haven't really looked at the class / powers all that much, but it certainly seems complicated.

Joshua Aslan Smith

shaman isn't terribly complicated but a lot of it hinges off what keywords the powers have and what features/feats they took

is the player who picked shaman doing it for healing or just to have another body in combat ( also what is your PC party size)?

I too have had a first time player I was gming for pick shaman and then struggle with it

I actually feel the Druid subclass (Sentinel) works better at being a primal leader with a pet then the shaman does

but I still would suggest your shaman player pick a non-pet class if they are brand new. @jadarnel27

jadarnel27

Sorry, I'm at work and I keep switching back and forth. @Joshua She is our "leader" role person. We currently have 4 PCs. And that's a good point about the pet. That just adds another layer of complexity for her to deal with.

We have a Battlemind , Seeker, Shaman, and Ranger.

We also have a fifth person that might be joining us soon.

Zachiel

How's the seeker doing?

mmmh ranged-y party

jadarnel27

Seeker is doing okay. She was slow the first couple sessions, but has sped up considerably in the most recent session.

I think she struggles with the tactics (attacking the right people at the right time, being in the right spots, etc). But that's more communication than anything else.

So I think that will improve over time.

Joshua Aslan Smith

5:53 PM

Zachiel was I think asking because seeker is kind of not a strong class

@jadarnel27 there are other leader options for the shaman that are easier to play thats for sure, what books do you have or do you have D&D insider?

jadarnel27

Ohhh, right. @Zachiel mentioned that the other day, I think, and recommended the Hunter as an alternate.

We have PHB 1, 2, and 3, and one of the Essentials books (I can't remember which one).

Joshua Aslan Smith

gotcha

Aaron

Hey @Zachiel Any news on the game?

jadarnel27

I don't have DDI, but I was thinking of paying up to share with the group.

Zachiel

need to go, see you later

Joshua Aslan Smith

5:55 PM

bye

@jadarnel27 D&DI is extremely helpful and one sub can basically cover a whole table

if you get D&DI or that one essentials book happens to be heroes of the forgotten lands I'd suggest Cleric (warpriest) to your shaman friend

it is a divine vs primal class, but the mechanics are much simpler and the class is based around hitting things and then getting to do cool things for your buddies because you h it something

jadarnel27

I'm getting married in November (to the Seeker), so I'm trying to save money where I can (which is why I haven't paid up before now).

Joshua Aslan Smith

@jadarnel27 completely legit reason, I had under 20 dollars in the bank when I got married (was very underemployed but about to start a new full time job)

jadarnel27

That sounds like an awesome option, @Joshua.

Joshua Aslan Smith

I almost didnt have cufflinks for my french sleeved dress shirt, but luckily a groomsman had an unused jos a banks gift card

jadarnel27

Haha, that is fantastic =)

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