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1:44 AM
@Aaron - thanks, that's an interesting question (and answer!)
 
 
1 hour later…
2:49 AM
yoyoyo homotopy
 
3:18 AM
@IanMateus, I really like your MSE profile.
 
3:39 AM
@Jon why?
 
I mean, it seemed to me that it is in an ironic vein. Or are you just actually a typical teenager?
 
Not so typical, but... kinda
@Jon what are you studying (specifically and in simple terms?) I am illiterate in homotopy theory.
 
well, at the moment i'm actually studying what i guess one would call deformation theory
there are these things from number theory called formal groups, and i'm more or less studying deformations of them
and formal groups end up being useful in algebraic topology
but i'm not really studying formal groups, i'm studying approximations to formal groups, so like, this thing called a formal lie variety can take an isomorphism from the so-called formal affine line, and this kind of defines a curve on this formal lie variety dude, and then i'm kind of studying like, approximations to that curve
 
How does this arise from number theory? Wikipedia gives no clue (I didn't find, at least.)
 
sort of the taylor series of that curve
 
3:48 AM
@Eric I would guess it would be in some version of an ando, blumberg, and gepner paper... but I think you wouldn't be asking if it were. What do you mean by V3? the new articles from a couple years ago?
 
i mean chapter V, section 3
 
so i guess en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_group is a good place to start
where they talk about formal group laws
which are basically taylor series
sort of
 
i'm not aware of this calculation being in an ABG** paper, i thought those were largely theoretical
accordingly, i didn't check
 
but i don't really know how they arise in number theory. apparently the things i'm talking about are used to prove the main theorem in local class field theory
 
@JonBeardsley this always happens with periodic theories. There are a couple of ways to see this, one of them is via a sort of atiyah hirzebruch ss.
 
3:49 AM
which i know nothing about
 
oh this other other paper
 
@Eric cool.
 
@SeanTilson hm okay. no it's just that somebody was earlier telling me that it's not the case that, e.g. HZ, is acyclic for all E(n)
 
@IanMateus great question. We should compile answers to this in general.
 
yeah i don't see it in the other other paper
 
3:51 AM
@JonBeardsley Sorry, I guess I was thinking of HF_p implicitly, which is not fair.
 
aha
yeah
okay
yeah, so, well, in that case it sort of also is connected to the fact that torsion theories are "dissonant"
 
@Eric:is it the case that $H\mathbb{Z}\wedge E(n)\simeq \ast$?
 
i don't think so
presuming we mean $H\mathbb{Z}_{(p)}$
because $E(n)$ doesn't have trivial integral homology does it???
 
@JonBeardsley I like how you didn't assume any homotopy theory and instead started talking about algebraic geometry.
 
@JonBeardsley yeah exactly, i immediately thought we were working p-adically
HZ_p ^ E(n) is null
HZ will have rational things in it
ugh maybe even HZ_p will have rational things in it
 
3:54 AM
@Eric yeah, I would not expect that to be contractible.
 
well what i meant was that L_K(n) HZ is null for n > 0, so all that's left is L_Q, which i forgot about completely
 
so we can compute this using some bockstein spectral sequences to get at $H\mathbb{Z}_{(p)}\wedge BP<n>$ and then...
 
i think that HF_p is dissonant
 
I can't believe I always ask this, but which $E$-theory is bousfield equivalent to morava $K$-theory?
 
the suspension spectra paper says that i think
(@jon)
 
3:57 AM
yeah
ithink ravenel's paper says it
i don't understand the question sean
@sean
$\langle E_n\rangle=\langle E(n)\rangle =\langle \vee K(m\leq n)\rangle$
 
@JonBeardsley thanks, it is two of the three that are equivalent and I always screw it up.
 
huh? all of the three are equivalent
 
completed E-theory is bousfield equivalent to morava K-theory
 
I get seduced by the picture of the moduli stack of fgls.
ok.
 
uncompleted E-theory is the same as johnson-wilson is the same as several K-theories
 
4:00 AM
by the way, Ravenel's 84 paper implies taht $H\mathbb{F}_p$ is $E(n)$ acyclic for all $n\geq 0$
that is, including $H\mathbb{Q}$
@mateus sorry, where did i lose you?
erm, @ian
 
@JonBeardsley: there are 3 theories running around (more, but whatev) and 2 of them are bousfield equivalent. I thought one of them was a $K$, but it isn't
 
i see
 
@JonBeardsley yeah, this follows from an atiyah hirzebruch ss if you already know the homology of the truncated brown peterson guys.
 
that's interesting that completed E-theory is Bousfield equiv. to Morava K-theory, fits the geometric picture really well
@SeanTilson oh okay cool
 
@Eric:you mean completed morava $E$-theory right?
 
4:02 AM
i do
 
@Jon not at all, I'm just trying to digest some Wikipedia articles
 
(do you think jack will be upset when he sees I forget to capitalize his last name?)
 
no
he will probably appreciate it
 
@Eric were you really playing the first unreal tournament?
 
so I wonder if we can think of $L_{K(n)}$ as like completing at a point on $\mathcal{M}_{fg}$
 
4:03 AM
j j morava
e e cummings
 
we should start calling him Jack Johnson.
LOL
 
@SeanTilson i was really playing deus ex, i don't think i'm going to get to unreal (not tournament) before getting tired of games again
 
also, @JonBeardsley, yeah, I think we definitely should!
 
hah. there is someone on facebook named jack johnson moravana
i tried to friend him
 
4:04 AM
@Eric I played the first deus ex for a minute, wasn't huge into it.
 
are you guys into arkanoid? that's the bomb
 
Nuclear dawn was the last game I played. It was really good.
 
@JonBeardsley I don't quite understand... We can use it to approximate elliptic curves/integrals and then, if the bounds are sufficiently sharp, get lattice points with such-and-such properties? Perhaps this is a possible application in number theory?
 
i like it
it's goofy
in fact i'll go back to it now, rather than starting in on work again at midnight
 
@Eric but that is the best time to start work! lol
also, jack morava is listed as a homotopy theorist and not a mathematician on wikipedia.
 
4:08 AM
i sent charles an email about gl_1(KO) in case tyler didn't show up and answer all my questions
 
how awesome is that.
 
hopefully get a reply tomorrow
 
@IanMateus They're used to investigate/construct maximal abelian field extensions
 
please keep us posted. Although, I suspect charles won't answer tonight, did you see the photo on facebook?
 
no, i didn't, is there a photo
 
4:09 AM
@PeterNelson what are? fgls?
@Eric just look at his facebook wall and read the comments.
 
oh wow
 
lol
@SeanTilson among other things
 
sorry @Ian i can't really say
 
yeah ok, video games
 
I love the quote, "I regret nothing!"
 
4:19 AM
for a ring (spectrum, or not) R, is the category of R-modules, or maybe the module of Kahler differentials of R, somehow an "Abelianization" of R?
 
Kahler differentials are
 
aha
fantastic
 
See Quillen's cohomology of rings
 
right.
 
i mean, you need a base ring
abelian groups objects in rings/k are "the same" as k-modules
 
4:39 AM
@JonBeardsley Wikipedia page in homotopy shows a continuous transformation from one path to another. "Clearly" (intuitively) there are many ways to do this and many "intermediate steps". Are you taking a well-behaved curve and trying to deform it into a pathological one (with interesting properties?) And how do you construct these transformations explicitly?
 
what is with this comment mathoverflow.net/questions/46399/…
how does anyone compute the (pi_* S)-module structure on these things
homotopy theory is full of mysteries
in particular, so is jacob
 
@eric: the multiplication-by-eta map is not so bad to compute from $\pi_0$ to $\pi_1$. many people refer to this under the term of Picard groupoids.
essentially, if you have a symmetric monoidal category with $\pi_0$ a group, then there's a map from $\pi_0$ to $\pi_1$
given an element $c$ in the category, there's a canonical identification $Aut(I) \to Aut(c)$ and so you get an element $\tau \in Aut(c \otimes c) \cong Aut(I)$, where $I$ is the unit
for the spectrum associated to this category, $Aut(I)$ is $\pi_1$, and this map $\pi_0 \to \pi_1$ sending $c$ to this twist is multiplication by eta.
 
4:56 AM
@JonBeardsley or that srikanth article, or ... many things.
@IanMateus so this is where homotopy theory starts, but it has come a long way since then. Maybe this chat should be called stable homotopy theory...
 
@TylerLawson i'm ok up until "is eta"
 
meaning, you want confirmation that this is indeed eta?
 
maybe i'm just unclear on the connection to the comment. where does R[1] belong in your story, and where does the twist map belong in his
 
5:12 AM
ah! right. so Pic(R) is this space parametrizing invertible R-modules; if you pass to the homotopy category you toss away everything except $\pi_0$ and $\pi_1$ of Pic(R)
 
ok
 
$R[1]$ is an invertible R-module, representing an element of $\pi_0(Pic(R))$
 
also ok
 
and so to get the action of $\eta$, we take the twist map on $R[1] \wedge_R R[1]$, which we call $R[2]$
 
oh!
great, i see
 
5:14 AM
by naturality, we can pull this back from $S^1 \wedge S^1 = S^2$
where we finally connect back to planet earth. (sorry, realize you got it already. talking for my own benefit)
 
no, go on, who knows who else is listening
 
ok, so the twist map on $S^1 \wedge S^1$ is a degree $-1$ map
and the set $\pi_1(Pic(S))$ is the set of homotopy classes of self-equivalences of the sphere (stably)
which has precisely two path-components, $\pm 1$
and on all spheres of positive dimension, degree -1 self-equivalences precisely detect this nontrivial element.
ok. I think that's all I can say without devolving into a rant about the $R[1]$ notation
 
i sent charles a late afternoon email today that maybe you would have something to say about: cl.ly/image/1T0l240R1Q0t
probably the first thing to say is that i think i made a typo when i wrote KO[4, infty) instead of KO[2, infty)
 
@TylerLawson is it obvious that there should be no higher homotopy? like maybe pic is gotten by some sort of nerve construction?
 
boy. I don't know a coherent answer to that which doesn't involve calculations with Charles' logarithm
@SeanTilson there is higher homotopy - you just toss it away when you pass to the homotopy category (sorry, I forgot to say that you're taking the category of invertible objects and weak equivalences, not just maps)
even for KU this issue is a little sticky. using log calculations (which are not so bad) I think you can write down the fiber of the map $KU \to L_{E(1)} KU$, which has only finitely many homotopy groups; this is also an equivariant description
 
5:26 AM
@TylerLawson so taking the homotopy category naturally just ignores these higher groups. They are coherence data which we have already thrown away.
 
@SeanTilson yeah. the category becomes a groupoid then, and the higher homotopy groups track the spaces of self-equivalences
 
it seems like there is use of some identification between $\pi_0 Pic(R)$ with $\pi_1 R$, is that the case?
 
i am ok with log calculations, i would like to become more familiar with them
maybe they're not fun to type out in chat though
 
the fiber of the log (2-locally) has homotopy groups Z/2, Z/2, Z, Z in degrees -1..3, and so it almost gets you the splitting you need from the bottom of the postnikov tower back to the spectrum
you just need to take the connective cover, and then show that the Z in degree ... argh, in degree ONE splits off as a wedge summand. (sorry, it's -1..2)
@SeanTilson It identifies $\pi_1 Pic(R)$ with $\pi_0(R)^\times$ and $\pi_{n+1} Pic(R)$ with $\pi_n(R)$ for $n > 0$
 
excellent, and that is morally obvious or something using some black magic construction.
 
5:30 AM
this is basically some assertion like: the space of $R$-module maps $R \to R$ is $\Omega^\infty R$, and the space of self-equivalence just consists of those path components corresponding to units of $R$
 
I guess I meant that there is probably some $\infty$-categorical way of doing this, like in the ABGHR paper.
anyway, thanks.
 
the $\infty$ categorical way is just some way of saying the same thing - this mostly goes back to work on orientation theory (e.g. may-quinn-ray, I think)
it happens to be a very convenient way that avoids a lot of technical details
@Eric so far as KU, there is an analogous result for $GL_1(KU)$ - this is what gets leveraged by the "twisted K-theory" people - essentially one splits off a $Z/2$ semidirect product with a $K(Z,2)$ from $GL_1(KU)$
so far as for the E_n, that's an interesting question
Westerland-Sati split off this "top" homotopy group of $gl_1 E_n$
or top map from an eilenberg-mac lane space
 
oh, gosh, is that what they do
 
yeah; morally the adjunction is
Map(Sigma^n HA, gl_1(E)) = Map_{infinite loop} (K(A,n), GL_1(E)) = Map_{E_infty ring}(Sigma^infty K(a,n)_+, E)
they're thinking about the right-hand side
but it's in theory a question about $gl_1$
Ando-Hopkins-Rezk have this "discrepancy spectrum" which is the fiber of the map from $gl_1 E$ to its $E(n)$-localization
which has only finitely map homotopy groups, which are all torsion
so there's some candidate for "finite stuff" kicking around
however, except for some specific K-theory or tmf-related examples, I don't know of many calculations
charles would be the person to ask
 
advertisement for lil kids tryin to make sense of ABGHR: math.northwestern.edu/~bwill/thom
 
5:44 AM
$gl_1$ is also full of mysteries, as they say.
 
these things seem like they would be very hard to compute.
 
(my post was meant to imply that we were little kids, not that the notes are for little kids... sorry if that was accidentally insulting)
how's gl_n?
 
There's only GL_n and BGL_n, unfortunately, because the multiplication's not commutative enough
 
that makes them implicitly unstable, and harder to compute
 
5:47 AM
can we get some stable approximation/tower goin on for them?
 
you mean, say, letting n get big?
maybe using block sums to relate different n and m?
 
oooh, I was thinking more of an analog of EHP via some sort of Goodwillie goodness. But your idea sounds both more reasonable and more delicious
"analog of ehp" = derivatives of the id
 
@TylerLawson thanks, this was helpful
 
well, I mostly said that because I could say "congratulations, you've invented K-theory"
 
I'll take it
 
5:50 AM
so far as analyzing GL_n via Goodwillie-type techniques, that's an interesting idea.
I honestly don't know what the derivatives of BGL_n are.
 
for example: how excisive does GL_n feel?
right.
no idea. now I wanna know.
GL_1 is easier since it factors through spectra, so derivatives are a bit easier. Any ideas in this case?
 
@Eric - is there a reference for the fact that completed Morava E-theory is Bousfield equivalent to Morava K-theory? That's cool
 
@Eric mostly trying to help myself by getting someone to figure out these mysteries anyway
@DylanWilson so far as excisiveness, you should be able to get pretty explicit estimates because the homotopy groups of $GL_n$ are explicit in terms of those of $R$
 
(Presumably this is Charles' logarithm: math.uiuc.edu/~rezk/units-paper.pdf? I'm so out of the loop)
 
unfortunately, these are functors on rings, and homotopy groups aren't linear in the ring; the correction term is quadratic, though, so calculus should be absolutely applicable
@Drew Yep.
 
5:54 AM
this sounds like buckets of fun!
 
@Drew it turns out not to be a super exciting statement, but it is in section 7 or 8 or whatever the smallness-and-dualizability-phenomena section of hovey & strickland's morava K-theories and localization
 
Cool. Unfortunately the list of interesting things grows exponentially faster than my ability to learn and 'understand' it
Oh cool. I've only read/glanced at the paper like 10,000 times. Must have missed it!
 
oh it's you, i thought your icon was blueish for some reason
 
Mine? Mine seems to just change colour all the time. I've no idea why
 
it's not phrased quite like that; it's something like "when K(n)_* X is even then E_n^\vee X is too, and also vice versa, and also also E_n^\vee X / I_n = K(n)_* X"
but in particular K(n)_* X = 0 counts as even, so
 
5:58 AM
@DylanWilson too bad you aren't on my side of the state.
 
it's not even super silly to prove it that way, their proof is more or less what you'd end up saying anyhow
 
Yeah right. K(n)_*X = 0 is pro-free, I guess that's the trick
 
@SeanTilson or in your state at all any more :( I just got back to Evanston
 
@DylanWilson why didn't you come visit?
you were "so" close.
 
gonna go dream about derivatives. keep spreading the love people!
(@SeanTilson to busy bein on a boat with family!)
**too
 
6:01 AM
@TylerLawson: where do they talk about how to compute GL_n?
 
@SeanTilson Waldhausen was the first to define GL_1, although I think that some ABG** variant talks about BGL_n as a space of self-equivalences of modules equivalent to R^n
err, Waldhausen defined GL_n.
 
those stars are clever.
I thought maybe there was some problem with GL_n, I can't rememberr why
 
not sure
 
yeah, so rank n-modules don't have a symmetric monoidal structure.
 
yeah. they're acted on by rank-1 modules
that's about as good as one might hope
 
6:08 AM
I thought that was important... but it certainly seems like you should be able to construct GL_n the way you suggest, or BGL_n rather.
right.
I mean, they fit together to form something, like an operad.
that is irrelevant probably.
OK!!! excellent, and that is part of the reason why there is no spectrum bgl_n, because we can't take advantage of two different products that distribute over eachother!
ok, I feel better now.
ie the eckman-hilton dance that andrew stacey has an animation of.
 
6:26 AM
i can't believe i hadn't taken the time to read this sati-westerland paper
 
 
4 hours later…
10:48 AM
so what is the image of the functor $Map(S[x],-):Spectra\to Spectra$? is it the identity?
or rather, what's it's value on ring spectra
 
my question was closed :(
 
 
2 hours later…
1:20 PM
Just to confirm I'm not going crazy, can someone confirm for me that $KSp \simeq \Sigma^4 KO$
 
2:01 PM
Confirmed... $\Omega^4 BO \cong BSp$
 
2:25 PM
Thanks Dylan!
 
@JonBeardsley By S[x] you mean what? the free E_{\infty}-ring on S?
 
2:46 PM
@JonBeardsley in general there's only a space of maps between ring spectra, not a spectrum of them. If S[x] means the free ring on S, then this functor is $\Omega^\infty$, but if it means the monoid algebra $\Sigma^\infty_+ \mathbb{N}$, then it's something much more mysterious.
 
3:08 PM
@TylerLawson I would think it would mean the second. I think what jon is after is some sort of underlying "additive group" of a spectrum. I guess we would need a diagonal on S[x], which we do have since it is a suspension spectrum.
 
3:26 PM
But the monoid algebra structure is inherently multiplicative -- $E_\infty$-maps from $\Sigma^\infty_+ \mathbb{Z}_{\geq 0}$ into an $E_\infty$-ring $R$ are the same as maps of $E_\infty$-spaces $\mathbb{Z}_{\geq 0} \to \Omega^\infty R$, where $\Omega^\infty R$ is given the multiplicative infinite loop structure, so algebraically this (with the usual diagonal) corresponds to the multiplicative monoid rather than the additive monoid. Is there a way around this?
 
hmmmmm
i'm after something that should be the spectral additive group. however, i've been thinking more about this, and i'm thinking this might be stupid to do
sort of for the reason that spectra are already linear.
i'm not sure though. I just don't really know enough about all of this. and yeah, @TylerLawson I guess I mean the group ring of $\mathbb{N}$, i'm just.... can I think of this as $\mathbb{S}[x]$ by identifying $n$ with $x^n$ or something?
it's also fascinating to me, though perhaps not to others, that $\mathbb{S}[x]$, as $\mathbb{P}(\mathbb{S})$ (this is another notation for what you mean by free ring?), somehow gives you back $\Omega^\infty$. Is that obvious?
 
\mathbb{P}(-) is the free E_{\infty} ring on -, yes
 
 
2 hours later…
5:14 PM
@JonBeardsley it seems to be via adjunctions, I don't know that it is the same as $\mathbb{P}(S^0)$.
 
5:30 PM
aha, okay
@seantilson i think this harper hess paper is a really big effing deal. like. i really really like this framework. it's like quillen's cohomology of commutative rings on steroids
 
@JonBeardsley you mean like quillen (co)homology?
 
yes
it's really a beautiful beautiful picture
and i'm excited about it
they said in that paper that they're going to write some more about that framework and goodwillie derivatives
so, i'm anticipating that
it ALSO explains Schwede's DB spectra, and sort of why $\pi_\ast(DB)=TAQ(HB)$
but Schwede's picture is really nice, in the sense that does things in terms of gamma rings, which is sort of... more algebro-geometric
or like... sehafy
*sheafy
moreover, i suspect that in the context of $\infty$-categories, one could talk about the completion tower of a category, combining harper and hess' stuff as well as lurie's stuff on deformation theory
 
@JonBeardsley there is also the work of John Francis in the direction of cotangent complexes in DAG. Unfortunately, I know nothing of this stuff.
 
5:58 PM
hmmmmm yeah. i've seen some of that.
it's funny, I think Lazard's old stuff is super applicable here, but just needs to be generalized, he basically talks about tangent vectors of curves on formal varieties, which is not super interesting because over smooth things this is just (somehow) the additive group, basically (abelianization-ish stuff??), and goodwillie calculus as deformation theory is basically the derived version of this
i said basically 3 times in that comment
 
 
4 hours later…
9:40 PM
john francis's thesis has to do with E_n-algebraic geometry, including cotangent complexes in that setting
@JonBeardsley: "basically" is the new "just"
 
10:41 PM
lol, i'm not familiar with "just"
by the way, i read that harper hess paper
more or less
@aaronmazel-gee
if you wanna chat about it. it's a pretty quick read, considering that most of the proofs are just references
well i didn't read all of it, but all of the interesting stuff
 
11:18 PM
hey if anyone knows a place in the algebra literature where cube-zero extensions of rings are investigated, please e-mail me and let me know!
 

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