The Whiteboard

12:11 AM

if you don't have a calculator in front of you, how did you send that message?

user55340

12:55 AM

@GlenH7 I suspect the all time reviews include historical ones, and people who have left and had their accounts deleted no longer show up on the all time list.

user20683

@MichaelT Given how much rep I've gotten just by knowing what Linear Programming is, I probably aught to actually learn how to do it.

psr

@WorldEngineer It's pretty straightforward. </hilarious>

user20683

@psr figured as much

user20683

Linear Algebra is probably my best subject mathwise

Jimmy Hoffa

1:39 AM

I don't know linear programming at all, according to wikipedia it's a bunch of non-sense

user20683

@JimmyHoffa Wiki math articles tend be obtuse at best

Jimmy Hoffa

I've been able to follow quite a bit of them quite well

but that's the kind of math I always hated

user20683

@JimmyHoffa the super formal hoighty toighty kind?

Jimmy Hoffa

hard fixed stuff that just happens to work without any theoretical logic explaining just "Use this equation and it works!"

user80950

How do you know when your answer is good? When someone copies a chunk of it an resubmits it as their own :( programmers.stackexchange.com/a/203915/69037

Jimmy Hoffa

1:43 AM

always hated geometry and the bits of linear algebra I learned for that reason

@LegoStormtroopr Did you flag their answer? Put a link to your answer in the flag, they'll get a stern message and their answer deleted

psr

@JimmyHoffa Wikipedia explains it pretty well. It's very practical, things like an optimal product mix under a very complex model are (if it's a linear model) linear programming.

user20683

you can do non-linear programming as well with Diff Eqs and what not

psr

Not on my watch

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr Yeah, if I actually read it closely I'd probably get more from it. I get the general idea: Create a numerical analysis of your domain that fits it into one of a variety of structures, then use various well-known mathematical techniques on those structures to get varietys of information from them. The trick being creating an appropriate analysis of your domain that will make the solution you want reachable through some of the well-known details you can get from the structures

That about right?

or way off?

user20683

@LegoStormtroopr dealt with

user20683

1:51 AM

no more shall be said

Jimmy Hoffa

Sometimes I wish I knew math, I'd actually be able to read that stuff naturally, as it stands I've spent years treating math like a programming language I don't entirely know; analyzing it for meaning the same way I would try to divine the meaning and purpose from a block of LUA

user20683

@JimmyHoffa could always go get a degree in that

user20683

study it formally

user20683

then use it + Haskell to rule us all

user20683

make stupidly ridiculous amounts of money

psr

1:56 AM

@JimmyHoffa Er, hard to say. Math to English is hard. My explanation would be "linear constraints form straight lines, so lots of them form a polygon. It turns out the optimal solution, if there is one, is always on the border of the polygon. When there are thousands of such lines, you need a computer to find the optimal point

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer I would actually probably really enjoy it, but too much responsibility, it's too late for me. Perhaps many years from now or something, no one knows what the future holds

psr

@JimmyHoffa Constraints are often stupid things like how much stuff costs, how much capacity your factory has, the fact that producing X widgets mean you can produce Z-.2X Thridgets, etc. The thing you maximize is very often money.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr I get that, but "linear programming" is taking your model and fitting it into some structure that you can apply mathematical constraints against, no?

and moreover, given you want this min or this max or this whatever, you would construct the structure differently to apply the constraint and get the result you want, yes?

user20683

@JimmyHoffa could always coursera a class at a time

user20683

you'd probably do well just taking an "intro to higher math" class

Jimmy Hoffa

2:00 AM

@WorldEngineer Meh, I spoke with some guys in math.se at one point, they made a good point: I can just study math the same way I studied programming

if I really want to pick that stuff up

psr

@JimmyHoffa The structure isn't that exciting - a bunch of equations that graph as straight lines. And you (probably) wouldn't be manipulating your model to come up with the answer you want, you would usually try to put accurate real world limitations in to see how you can make the most money.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr Right, the structure isn't exciting but the job in linear programming is figuring out how to get your model into the structure no? After you have it in the structure, applying constraints is a well studied space of regurgitating known approaches, yes?

psr

@JimmyHoffa I've found match uniquely tough to study on my own. The damnable notation makes it hard to find readable material. But given the whole internet thing I guess only a tiny fraction needs to be widely readable, if you can find that fraction.

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr that was my thought as well, that's what I was asking in math.se chat room about, they said it's no different and shrug I'm entirely self-taught anyway, it kinda makes sense, but iduno

On the bright side there's no necessity for it

psr

@JimmyHoffa Yes. Though it could be really obvious. And you made it sound like you were working backwards toward the answer you wanted. Which might happen for political reasons, but isn't the point of it.

Jimmy Hoffa

2:03 AM

just a bit of interest

user20683

There's actually a couple of really good books on the subject

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer check it out, I know about linear programming now

winner!

You know, I bet if I played in mercury for a while I would get it a lot more easily

logic programming is all about sets, relationships, and applying constraints to cull them guiding towards the solution you want

user20683

@JimmyHoffa

user20683

amazon.com/Journey-into-Mathematics-Introduction-Proofs/dp/…

user20683

This book is excellent

Jimmy Hoffa

2:11 AM

@WorldEngineer I love that it starts with proofs and then moves to proven things

that's what annoyed me about those fixed proven things, you never get explanations of how they were derived or the theory and concepts behind them because proofs come so far after all that other stuff

user20683

yeah

user20683

History of Mathematics and Computing both need to be taught more

user80950

2:43 AM

@WorldEngineer Thanks :)

Jimmy Hoffa

Jon purdy's actually finally publicized a language he's written and is genuinely working on spreading, cool. Concatenative impure language which is pretty neat

kittenlang.org/intro

user55340

Heh... I poked over at CS.SE's meta and saw someone comment about a question/rant/discussion... so I looked.

user55340

0

Q: How do CPUs on PC motherboard architectures communicate with hardware outside of its circuit?

Realize I didn't mention x86 or any more details to make this non-specific to any platform, but to just get a general idea of how this is done(this is also a long question with a lot of details). I know most PC motherboards for desktop (if not all) computers have two sections; north and south br...

computer-architecture

user55340

It was originally from cstheory.SE by someone named "Computer Master Wannabe" - any bets?

user20683

@MichaelT /facepalm

Jimmy Hoffa

2:49 AM

hahaha

user55340

So... yea... apparently my suggestion of migrating those posts to there is moot... they've already got him.

user55340

Fortunately, Gilles didn't suggest migrating it here...

user55340

@Kaveh This question straddles the border between computer architecture design (Computer Science), programming (Stack Overflow) and PC components (Super User). I suggest migrating it to Computer Science, where we can explain the theory, and then CMW can ask about concrete x86 implementations elsewhere if he wishes. — Gilles Jun 7 at 20:14

user20683

@MichaelT I'm a little puzzled by his technique, he trolls but it's like he really does want to learn stuff, he just fundamentally misunderstands how modern computers are built and programmed.

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer and he fundamentally misunderstands how to get information from people if he does want to learn stuff like it seems he does

user20683

2:54 AM

@JimmyHoffa that too

user55340

A spinoff of C2 is a wiki called meatballwiki which has a fair bit on virtual communities. meatballwiki.org/wiki/WhatIsaTroll

user55340

> Trolling is a game about identity deception, albeit one that is played without the consent of most of the players. The troll attempts to pass as a legitimate participant, sharing the group's common interests and concerns; the newsgroups members, if they are cognizant of trolls and other identity deceptions, attempt to both distinguish real from trolling postings and, upon judging a poster a troll, make the offending poster leave the group.

user55340

> Their success at the former depends on how well they — and the troll — understand identity cues; their success at the latter depends on whether the troll's enjoyment is sufficiently diminished or outweighed by the costs imposed by the group.

user20683

The cost at this point is basically equivalent to "Shoot on Sight".

user20683

@MichaelT Poignant guide annoyed me enough to try and find something else to cram Ruby into my skull

user20683

2:59 AM

my problem learning languages now is more "yes, I know how to print stuff, just lay out the methods and let me get on with it"

user20683

yes, I know what if and else do

user20683

yes, I know what a while loop does

user55340

The "problem" with ruby is that the neat stuff is the meta programming.

user20683

Which lisp and family are better at no?

user55340

Things like "create a method that accepts all method calls that aren't defined and do something"

user55340

3:02 AM

Or "go poke at a database, and make yourself (the class) into a copy of that table / schema. Create methods for the joins"

user55340

@WorldEngineer Lisps are quite good at it - the dynamic creation / evaluation blurring the line between data and code...

user55340

But consider also the "ease" of runtime modification of the class that ruby gives while remaining OO.

user20683

true

user55340

Btw, given you have a mac, you might find MacRuby interesting. Objective C and Ruby use similar method call approaches.

user20683

oddly enough it feels kind of like Javascript

user55340

3:05 AM

MacRuby

MacRuby is an implementation of the Ruby language that runs on the Objective-C runtime and CoreFoundation framework under development by Apple Inc. which "is supposed to replace RubyCocoa". It targets Ruby 1.9 and uses the high performance Low Level Virtual Machine compiler infrastructure starting with version 0.5. It supports both ahead-of-time and just-in-time compilation. MacRuby supports Interface Builder and ships with a core library called HotCocoa to simplify Cocoa programming. MacRuby has also been used as an embedded scripting language for Objective-C applications. In May 2012,...

user20683

I did some Obj-C programming for my Embedded Systems class

user20683

I found that understanding that object model made me grasp object oriented programming in a way that I'd not understood before

user55340

viewsourcecode.org/why/hacking/seeingMetaclassesClearly.html

user55340

Its the meta programing (and that it facilitates DSL creation) that is Ruby's strength. I don't find it all that useful... so... thats why I like perl. Much more pragmatic for getting stuff done.

user20683

fair enough

user20683

3:09 AM

I'm not interested in Ruby outside possible employment

user20683

perhaps I should just keep honing Python

user55340

@WorldEngineer Do consider the "easily make mac applications with ruby" as one possible benefit. Stop writing text processing and make a gui app.

user20683

@MichaelT true enough

user20683

my biggest issue there is the age of my platform

user20683

my mac is ancient

user20683

3:17 AM

2nd gen Intel

psr

@WorldEngineer He's interesting in that he seems to believe that he would be a "computer master" if he could only eliminate all "abstractions". Since the understanding he seeks is necessarily itself an abstraction the only way for him to truly eliminate all abstraction would be to become a computer. I like to believe his wish has already been granted, and the troll on S.E. is what was left behind.

user20683

@psr He needs to go learn some physics and become an electrical engineer

psr

Too late - he's an electron.

user55340

@psr Fortunately, there might only be one of him then.

user55340

One-electron universe

The one-electron universe hypothesis, commonly associated with Richard Feynman when he mentioned it in his Nobel lecture, postulates that there exists only a single electron in the universe, propagating through space and time in such a way as to appear in many places simultaneously. History Feynman's thesis advisor, John Wheeler, proposed the hypothesis in a telephone call to Feynman in the spring of 1940. He excitedly claimed to have developed a neat explanation of the quantum mechanical indistinguishability of electrons: References External links * Jagdish Mehra, The Beat of a Diff...

psr

3:27 AM

I've heard that. As far as I know it still could be true.

user55340

Or maybe... we need to find him a positron (girlfriend) and let them explode in a burst of energy.

user55340

well, not we we, but we the human race.

user20683

@MichaelT that might equal a child

user20683

that would be some kind of horrifying thing

user20683

but yeah, with regard to my own issues, I figure do something as a command line tool, something as a gui app and something as a website

user55340

3:28 AM

Yep, and hopefully he wouldn't be worrying about cpu's and wouldn't have to worry about the child posting for a decade or so... and in the meantime, he'd show up on Parenting.SE with odd questions.

user20683

@MichaelT How do I change a diaper without any abstractions?

user55340

Or... somehow, we get him interested in history and have him show up on History.SE?

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer @MichaelT has a great point there, what's your experience writing actual GUI applications? web-pages? Either?

user20683

@JimmyHoffa did a web site for HCI

Jimmy Hoffa

all HTML? any ASP/PHP type HTML-ServerCode combo?

user20683

3:32 AM

@JimmyHoffa afraid not

user20683

machine in question wasn't able to run it

Jimmy Hoffa

If you've never done a physical GUI app or server/client combo style, go learn some of either

it's stuff you'll run into in 90% of jobs

user55340

Btw, bunch of link answer for Ruby meta programming..

user55340

0

A: Ruby metaprogramming online tutorial

http://rubylearning.com/blog/2010/11/23/dont-know-metaprogramming-in-ruby/ http://ruby-metaprogramming.rubylearning.com/ http://yehudakatz.com/2009/11/15/metaprogramming-in-ruby-its-all-about-the-self/ http://rubyrogues.com/metaprogramming-in-ruby/ http://pragprog.com/screencasts/v-dtrubyom/the-...

Jimmy Hoffa

almost no programs these days lack some kind of UI client (that's not command line), even if you don't write that part you'll have to on occasion be able to debug and understand some portion of it

Though for employment purposes perhaps studying ruby is your best bet.

You really just want a job go learn PHP

user20683

3:34 AM

yick

Jimmy Hoffa

you already know JS, spend 3 weeks studying PHP and you'll have a job

just saying

user20683

true

user20683

the question is will it be a good job?

user55340

Side bit - the problem with getting rep for formatting crap answers on SO... when they get deleted your rep goes away.

Jimmy Hoffa

It'll pay and be experience, but it won't put you on the path you probably want. Depends on how good you are at playing the game when you get into a job to structure your career on the path you want.

Many find it very hard to get their jobs to work towards their career goals for them and the company's benefit at the same time, many find it easy, PHP entry is a great path to Node.JS which isn't a bad place to be, from there you can move to RoR or any of various places

PHP to RoR is likely a touch trickier than to Node.JS from the cultures of the communities as I understand them

user20683

3:37 AM

yeah

user20683

hence someplace like Thoughtworks where I start with Rails and move from there

Jimmy Hoffa

Yeah, if you have a chance at thoughtworks that would be good

user20683

setting up my Careers.SO profile as we speak

user20683

finishing it anyway

user20683

won't have the projects and what not just yet but that'll come soon enough

user20683

3:40 AM

I think data visualization is my ultimate career goal. Take this blob of info and make it useful and comprehensible to humans.

user20683

I've always loved maps and graphs and things

Jimmy Hoffa

there's a lot more data analysis in that than you realize, and you'll be far more likely to end up a DBA more than anything else with that goal

Unless you want to really aim for research type roles

The alternative being a BI analyst which is a shit job

user55340

(I'm a java programmer and have taken a side track into solaris and oracle admin...)

Jimmy Hoffa

those guys are marketing/sales/management's errand boys, you never work with technical people and all of your instructions/projects are coming from people with zero technical skill

@MichaelT admin or arch?

user55340

Admin... create, backup, restore. At the moment fighting ORA-27102.

Jimmy Hoffa

3:43 AM

I got nothing about DBA, I've always been very good with DBs and would fill in to help the DBA team at a previous job whenever they got full

oh, yeah I've done that part too, that part kinda stinks

but I'd still take it over BI analyst EVERY DAY

user20683

yeah

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer sadly the closest to what you describe that's at all common in industry is BI analysts, and you can make good money doing it (again management and folks who are totally non-technical, they just want to throw a bunch of money at someone to do the analysis they need done to do their jobs) but it's miserable work

user20683

someone has to develop software to sell to those poor saps

user20683

but who knows

Jimmy Hoffa

Sell? They don't buy software, they buy saps to act as their foot stools man

being a DBA (arch) who also ensures data is modeled and warehoused off in structures where you can generate analysis/business usable reports on the side would be far more pleasant work

But hey, to each their own

user20683

3:48 AM

yeah

Jimmy Hoffa

@YannisRizos shit this late on a Friday you aren't about to merge us all with random unregistered users so you can play a game of guessing who's who without the names to give it away?

Yannis Rizos

@JimmyHoffa Sat, 6:45am here.

user20683

@JimmyHoffa it's morning where he is

Jimmy Hoffa

Oh, so he missed the bathroom and stumbled into his computer

user55340

@YannisRizos by chance did you see that post on CS.SE that I linked here?

user55340

3:49 AM

(if you want a chuckle at the expense of the mods there...)

Yannis Rizos

0

Q: How do CPUs on PC motherboard architectures communicate with hardware outside of its circuit?

Realize I didn't mention x86 or any more details to make this non-specific to any platform, but to just get a general idea of how this is done(this is also a long question with a lot of details). I know most PC motherboards for desktop (if not all) computers have two sections; north and south br...

computer-architecture

@MichaelT This one?

user55340

Yep.

user20683

@JimmyHoffa I do have considerable interest in things like computer vision and similar topics in sound and so forth

user55340

It was migrated from CSTheory.SE by someone named "Computer Master Wannbe" or something of that form.

user55340

(well, the original author's name... a mod migrated it)

user20683

3:51 AM

Gilles

Yannis Rizos

I recognize the username. Usually, that's not good.

user55340

Nah... he picks a different annoying one each time he posts here...

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer I get that, but A) you won't find those jobs in ruby (C++/FP are where anything of complex algorithmic form is found in industry) and B) Jobs working with such things are more commonly under the research realm not the general industry work. Great on ya if you can get a job as a researcher or some such, but I don't expect such a thing as a fresh grad unless the degree's at least a masters

user20683

@JimmyHoffa nor do I

user20683

I expect to build crud apps for the next few years

user20683

3:54 AM

I've little illusion about that

Jimmy Hoffa

If that's an end-goal, embedded's a good start towards it, otherwise any .NET/Java crud that deals with particularly large data (you won't see a lot of that in Ruby, it can't really handle such)

Yannis Rizos

@MichaelT Found where I know him from: cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/17934/…

user55340

Yea, that's his other post.

user20683

@JimmyHoffa you do see python in embedded to a degree

Jimmy Hoffa

embedded and large data are the two scenarios you have to work under resource constraints that force you do optimize and use algorithmic approaches at times, those are the things that are going to come in to play when dealing with computer vision/sound stuff you speak of

Ruby/PHP are more used for dumb CRUD without algorithms or genuine data processing

Yannis Rizos

3:57 AM

@MichaelT And someone is giving the mods a hard time for closing it when it was migrated to CS: meta.cs.stackexchange.com/questions/665/… sigh

re your comment on the q-- saw your comment, but it didnt specifically say you closed the question. now see the stackexchange indicator. actually imho it is moderators who dont seem to know that much about what drives search engine traffic to the site, or care, yet it is the lifeblood of stackexchange business model. every undeleted question is a separate page that is indexed by search engines and leads to more hits. as for users closing/deleting questions, maybe they dont feel the strong need to, and maybe thats something to think about! agree with throwing away some! who is "we"? moderators? — vzn Jun 14 at 21:47

Jimmy Hoffa

@YannisRizos Someone? Another clone of Leslar is giving them a hard time for closing a clone of Leslar's Q?

user55340

@JimmyHoffa The "neat" part of ruby was already solved with that ActiveRecord and Ruby... which makes Crud so trivial there.

Yannis Rizos

@JimmyHoffa 3.5K rep on CSTheory, 1.5K on CS. I don't think it's a troll...

Jimmy Hoffa

Oh

It just really read like Leslar

I didn't look that closely

also @MichaelT posted it, and he always seems to spot Leslar

user20683

could be a crank

Yannis Rizos

3:58 AM

The "let's keep every piece of crap around just in case we get a couple of extra hits" argument has a Leslar quality, indeed.

user55340

You've got the x86, "simple" from the bare machine "have to directly access the hardware and its components, circuitry" and get rid of the abstraction.

user55340

I'm not sure about vzn, but I'm fairly sure about Computer Master Wannabe.

Jimmy Hoffa

Oh I was referring to ComputerMasterWannabe being Leslar

vzn is a recognized moniker though, I know he's been around cs

user20683

@MichaelT incidently there's this thing on Python Metaprogramming

Jimmy Hoffa

Funny, Land of Lisp is proof the SmugLispWeenie is alive and kicking (and still writing) I love the "But we told you how to solve all of this in the 80s and you didn't listen!" just like you said, smug weenies...

user20683

4:02 AM

stephendiehl.com/posts/postmodern.html

user55340

c2.com/cgi/wiki?SocialProblemsOfLisp (chase the top links too)

user20683

@MichaelT I read that one ages ago

user55340

It is often suggested that one of the SocialProblemsOfLisp is that LispUsersAreArrogant.
*No, they're just perceived as arrogant by lesser beings.*
("Lesser beings" being those who bathe regularly.)

Jimmy Hoffa

This smells like leslar too, but it's just a few steps too high level to be him:

0

Q: How does GDI/+ work and can it be replaced with my own code?

On wikipedia it says that GDI is an API and core operating system component responsible for representing graphical objects and transmitting them to output devices. I'm not finding much on what GDI+ actually does so I'm wondering, is GDI+ replaceable with gui frameworks like wxWidgets and GTK+ or...

windows gui

user20683

@JimmyHoffa not him

user20683

4:09 AM

he's too coherent for one

user55340

Not at all... 3 other questions with accepted answers that are upvoted and reasonable, and member for 4 months. Leslar is less than a week before he gets the itch to ask his questions.

Yannis Rizos

6

Q: Should "Programming with Kids" have a canonical post?

Questions like this one have me wondering if introducing kids to programming isn't a good candidate for doing a "one post to rule them all" that gathers all of the good ideas we've accumulated on the subject and curates them in one place rather than it coming up again and again and different reco...

discussion questions canonization

user55340

And reasonable high level language questions on SO... (C# and F#)

Jimmy Hoffa

Yeah his other questions lead to him clearly not being leslar, just saying the question sounds similar "There's a component here, how does it interact with the hardware and why does it work the way it does with the hardware?"

Yannis Rizos

@WorldEngineer Everyone loves canonical posts. No one ever actually bothered to write one. /just saying...

user20683

4:10 AM

@YannisRizos I can cull all of the posts and write one but I've no experience programming with children

user20683

@YannisRizos Jimmy Hoffa has a kid...and it is policy to test all new features on him...

user55340

@WorldEngineer By children, you should say 'youth'. I've meet too many business users who do a very good job of emulating children.

user20683

@MichaelT I only use children to refer to biological states

user20683

I have other...more severe names for the other ones

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer My kids too much like me, the 'Programming with kids' canonical post would start with "Give an appropriate dose of benedryl to induce sleep, then with the child slumbering on your lap, open emacs ..."

user55340

4:12 AM

At one point (~2 years ago) I flat out told one of the business managers that he was acting like a child with his list of "I want this for the next release".

Yannis Rizos

@JimmyHoffa Thank you for volunteering to write our canonical "Programming with Kids" post.

2

3

Q: What can I do if I am angry with everything in Stack Overflow

This is a proposed FAQ question for those tearing their hair out on Stack Exchange sites. Recently I asked a question and gave a bounty but nobody gave a good answer. I asked for help on Meta Stack Overflow, but with Streisand effect those answers only got upvotes! I decided to delete the qu...

discussion faq-proposed

user55340

> If you are thirsty, drink something.

user20683

@MichaelT I read an article a while back about how many people confuse thirst for hunger

Jimmy Hoffa

> Dip him in the river who loves water.

@WorldEngineer I heard that study years ago, it's true, keep a large (like 20 oz) cup on hand with water all the time, taking a drink every few minutes as if it were a soda, you'll be far less hungry, but you might feel like a boat

user20683

yeah

user20683

4:19 AM

proper mineral intake is essential as well

user55340

@JimmyHoffa My brother commented upon joining the navy (he needed some direction in his life at the time) "Sometimes you need to jump into the ocean to find out you don't like getting wet."

user55340

Well, actually, that was when he got out..

Yannis Rizos

@JimmyHoffa You'll love this: Monads in PHP

Jimmy Hoffa

Heh, funny. Reminds me of what my wife said of her pops; 3 tours in vietnam she said growing up he would never go camping, every time they went to a hotel he would plop on the bed and proclaim "This is my kind of camping"

I get the idea he was done with the outdoors heh

user20683

I can't say I blame him

user20683

4:22 AM

my uncle did a tour or two in nam

user20683

head of an engineering platoon

Jimmy Hoffa

Yeah, he had some rough times for sure, airborne ranger, he's in some books

user20683

yikes

Jimmy Hoffa

Wish I'd had a chance to meet him

@YannisRizos Right from the start some of the terminology is...funky...

It looks like he got the maybe monad totally wrong heh

user20683

@JimmyHoffa Someone got something totally wrong in PHP? No Way!

Jimmy Hoffa

4:28 AM

Heh

Neat though, he's got the concept and it showcases the fluency you get from monads which is nice

The cool thing about monads is one statement get's to read and execute multiple statements without actually being multiple statements, which is key in haskell because you only get one statement per function

@YannisRizos you know javascript pretty well, no? Living in PHP I presume you do enough web dev to

user20683

@JimmyHoffa hence the box of boxes of blueberries you can trade for a box of blueberries

Jimmy Hoffa

Yeah, Cale is an extremely smart guy and explains things very well.

@YannisRizos in that maybe monad example, what's your understanding of the resulting value if any of the parents is null?

a PHP function can return something or not have a return at all? What is returned if there's no return at all, undefined like in JavaScrpt?

Yannis Rizos

@JimmyHoffa null.

user55340

(think perl undef)

Jimmy Hoffa

@YannisRizos Alright, then his maybe monad is right, I misread his explanation I guess

@YannisRizos That's cool though, he should rename the blog "Monads for the unwashed masses" ;P Hah I'm not a SmugHaskellWeenie at all

Seem useful @YannisRizos? You should start using them since you have higher order functions now (those are recent, no?)

Yannis Rizos

4:45 AM

@JimmyHoffa Yeah, I think what he's trying to do there is a soft intro for PHPers.

Jimmy Hoffa

It's cool. Remember this in the future: Whenever you're in a parser or state machine at all, monadic composition can sincerely clean up your if/else nesting so whenever you're working on something like that it should trigger the idea. You could easily tweak your brainfart interpreter to use monadic composition

Yannis Rizos

Hm... But I love if/else ;)

the tokenizer there could use an update...

user20683

MacRuby Installed and running a clean window

user20683

@JimmyHoffa I'm in business for that one at least

user20683

now to figure out something vaguely interesting to do with it

user20683

4:50 AM

but that will be tomorrow

Yannis Rizos

@JimmyHoffa Have you checked Anthony's monad implementations, or just the blog post?

github.com/ircmaxell/monad-php/tree/master/lib/MonadPHP

Jimmy Hoffa

for instance, you have:
`if ($this->parser->getFlag("string_output") === true) $fetchMode = Output::FETCH_STRING;`
which with a maybe monad style (false == null/nothing) could be:
$this->parser->getFlag("string_output")->bind($setFetchMode)

Just the blog post

and then you could bind that whole value to whatever came before it etc

Yannis Rizos

@JimmyHoffa Refactoring this unholy loop would probably be a bit more fun.

Jimmy Hoffa

@YannisRizos He's missing one important piece of the puzzle though; alternative (or MonadPlus) alternative is a implementation where given two values, it has some condition to choose which one to return for instance in maybe given a value and null to alternative it would return the value. This is how you compose your else conditions

If you know JavaScript well you could port my Error monad to PHP, it has Then (for bind) and Otherwise which backtracks for when the bind has returned a value that's useless

Otherwise uses an alternative implementation which is somewhat wrong but it's my monad I get to define it's semantics how I want heh

(getToken("[")->bind($processThatCharThingy)->otherwise($whateverOtherScenarioIsCalled))->until($tokensAllGone)

fill in the functions and there's your loop

Yannis Rizos

@JimmyHoffa the machinad repo?

Jimmy Hoffa

5:02 AM

Yeah

I wrote parser combinators you can see the example there how I'm composing arbitrary parsing stuff

parsad-example or something

you don't need to write parser combinators with it for your purposes though, yours are pretty simple (granted so were the parser combinators I wrote)

You can return a function in PHP, yes?

Yannis Rizos

Yes

Jimmy Hoffa

2:21 PM

googling PHP monad yielded this http://monadinnovation.com/php.ini I think they're doing it wrong

Bob

4:33 PM

►

Transcript for