@Beofett No slight was meant against you -- I was being informal with @torbengb in asking him to handle the situation because I wasn't going to be able to deal with it properly amid my current chaos. Please don't read so much into every little thing I say!
Hello @Hairy! I'd like to ask you to comment less please. You are entitled to your opinion, and I agree with some of your points. But please express them in your own answers; please don't use comments to try to "convince" other authors of your perspective.
I am trying to validate an answer. Comments, I am led to believe, IS the right place for this. I'd also like to be able to post on this site, without abuse
It appears ad hominem attacks seem frequent here. At not one stage was I abusive towards Lennart, yet he seems to feel this is ok for him to attack myself, and the country I was educated in, over a very subjective point of his.
Yes, you have a right to not be abused. Your best reaction is to not respond to it. Instead please flag any such instance and the mods will deal with it.
@Hairy I am making an effort to stop the personal attacks. You're helping me if you flag without response. I'm dealing with several persons, and I am aware of each of their actions.
@Hairy yes, you can use comments to point out serious flaws in answers. But if the author isn't moved by one comment, he won't be moved with more comments. Just let it go.
Oh yes I know. But see it as an opportunity to show your personal strength; don't get riled up, don't stoop below your level. Demonstrate good behavio(u)r.
Just to make it clear: I have of course in no way attacked the United Kingdom. I have criticized the attitude of telling four year olds that they are doing things wrong when spelling words the same way as they spell them on Sesame street. There really is no problem with saying that "color" is correct but "colour" is better, which was my suggestion instead of trying to explain to a 4yo with little grasp of Geography (as was specified in the question) why Kermit the frog can't spell.
If this indeed is what they are doing in UK schools (and Hairy claims it is) then UK schools are doing it wrong. This is not an "attack" on the UK in any way anymore than you are attacking four year olds as a group when saying that one kid is spelling a word wrong.
Hello @LennartRegebro! As I've just told another user, you're entitled to your opinion, and also entitled to not be abused. If you do feel attacked, please refrain from responding, and flag instead so that the mods can deal with it.
It's a very interesting question, and several responses that are just as interesting. I don't agree with all of them either.
And I think that it's a very delicate balance between teaching whatever is considered "correct" in the given country; and respecting that 4yo's just don't "grok" global differences yet.
In English classes in Denmark, the official stance is to teach UK English so if I spell in the US style, I will get corrected by the teacher. I think it's better that there is a policy, whatever it might be. Makes it easier to do things right.
In england, spelling colour color is wrong, incorrect,
If I was writing an article, in english, to an english audience, whilst they, of course, would understand color, they would assume I was american, were I to spell it that way
@Hairy: Yeah, you have. Read the question again: "What's the best way to explain to my four-year-old son why "color" is the wrong way for him to spell "colour", but that it's not wrong in the book he's reading? (Also "mom", "favorite", etc)."
@Hairy @LennartRegebro, are you discussing the idea that it's wrong to correct minor spelling mistakes with a 4yo (as opposed to a 12yo who should know better), or are you arguing about variants of English per se?
"So it's a mistake to use the terms "right" and "wrong" in this case. In fact, it's a mistake in any case as one spelling isn't right or wrong. "
THAT, is what I commented on, not "What's the best way to explain to my four-year-old son why "color" is the wrong way for him to spell "colour", but that it's not wrong in the book he's reading? (Also "mom", "favorite", etc)."
My answer is to the question. It is relevant to the question. The question has not developed. This is about a 4yo who is exposed to both US and NZ english. That what it is about. You misunderstood, therefore you were wrong.
My understanding is that some regions (any given country) is allowed to say "this spelling is officially correct" so teachers are allowed to correct other spellings even if they are valid elsewhere.
@Hairy: There is no difference. My answer is to the question. It is relevant to the question. The question has not developed. This is about a 4yo who is exposed to both US and NZ English. If your critizism is about anything else, it is irrelevant.
@Hairy: There is no difference. My answer is to the question. It is relevant to the question. The question has not developed. This is about a 4yo who is exposed to both US and NZ English. If your criticism is about anything else, it is irrelevant.
That answer will continue to be correct until you read it.
No, it isn't. The answer clearly, CLEARLY, states "So it's a mistake to use the terms "right" and "wrong" in this case. In fact, it's a mistake in any case as one spelling isn't right or wrong. "
and I disagreed, as it is clearly wrong, in English, to spell colour, color
hi guys, just to change tack a bit, i never came across Kermit as a kid and my kids (5 and 7) wouldn't know who he is either. I've heard of Sesame Street but have never seen it.
To recap: The discussion now is about the following sentence: "In fact, it's a mistake in any case as one spelling isn't right or wrong." @Hairy: Notice how that sentence does not say "In the UK schooling system" anywhere.
Lennart, Beofett said you shouldn't say it was wrong. I disagree, and still do, as it is wrong, and a child would be marked down for it here. All answers have to respect the fact this isn't an American site, so whilst it might not be wrong in America, or marked thus, but it would be here, and is wrong.
Would it be marked down if you are 4? I don't know, but you say it would. I have to trust you there, but then I also say that the UK educational system is being highly unpedagogical in it's attitude to 4 year olds.
And this is where we will stand until you start listening.
Beofatt specifically pointed out that There's nothing wrong with an American who spells "color" as "colour". At worst, it might seem a trifle eccentric. It certainly isn't "wrong". So he didn't say anything about the UK educational system either.
He also said . Any teacher who would mark such a thing "wrong" is more concerned with teaching a lesson about following instructions rather than proper spelling with which I also wholeheartedly agree.
You are of course free to mark his answer as unhelpful, but your comments and criticism are wholly misguided and based on your attitude that there is a Right Way and a Wrong Way and an emotional attachment to this. And therefore you aren't listening.
@Hairy c'mon @Hairy, i'm in the UK and we're not that hung up on am. spellings. they're not correct but it's not a big deal and there are bigger fish to fry when it comes to helping our kids read and write
@Hairy: Stop trying to pretend you understand my opinions or drives or motvation. Yo aren't even reading my answers properly. How can you think you know what I have issues with better than I do?
That's just a straw man you make up to not have to listen to what I say. Stop it.
@Hairy: It doesn't in except in teh UK or in the US or except anything. That is the whole point. It isn't wrong to spell it colour or colour. Kermit is not wrong when he spells it color. Neither are your teacher wrong when he/she spells it colour. Neither spelling is wrong.
Now you have completely stopped even reading what I say, and you are now just repeating "It's wrong in the UK" as a dogma to reassert to yourself that you are correct.
@Hairy: That your kid was marked down for it doesn't mean that this was the best way of handling it. The UK schooling system, as every schooling system, has flaws and can be improved. Nothing is perfect.
@Hairy: Good for you and also irrelevant for the discussion.
I admit I have a bit of a hard time believing that a 4yo would get marked down for that, but then again I have a hard time believing British kids used to run around in shorts all year around, but that seems to have been the case. :-)
Hawbs, I am relaly not arguing it is a smal pont, but it was germane to the argument
I corrct my childs spelling if it is needed and I adhere to the rules the school follows, to ensure she understands which is the right way to spell, and the wrong way, as there is a right and wrong
That is, effectively, what the whole argument was about
@Hairy: I know you took exception to it, because it's wrong in the UK. But I didn't write "in the UK". On a global scale, it is not wrong. It's two different spellings. If they get marked down or not is irrelevant.
The sentence "Color is not incorrect, except in the UK" is incorrect, as it would be incorrect in Australia and New Zealand as well (and Canada? Not sure).
This is the longest and most fruitless discussion about color vs. colour I have ever seen on any site of the network — including English Language and Usage.
@Hairy: With no specification of geography, "everywhere" is the obvious default. You have such a UK centric point of view that you are unable to see above this and outside your borders.
Lennart, England is the home of the English language. We protect it, as much as the French protect their language. we spell colour, just like that; to spell colour otherwise, would be wrong
No, lennart, check back on your replies; you started this by saying I was wrong.
@Hairy: And there you go. English people are right, everyone else is wrong and ungrateful people who didn't want to be a part of the empire, or something. ;-) You are right that this is not a US site. It's not an English site either. It's global, and that's the standpoint we have to have, and that's the viewpoint in my answers.
@Hairy they both are, for their respective region. You should accept that you're right for your region, while others are allowed to be right for their region. When no region is stated, nobody can be right - or wrong.
I'm getting abuse flags about the word "nazi" emanating from this room. People stop calling each other Nazis. Other people, stop getting offended by people calling people Nazis.
@Hairy Many people seem to think that American English has "deviated" from British English, while in reality, both of them have been deviating from their common ancestor, only in different ways. And many things are better preserved in contemporary AE than in contemporary BE.
@hawbsl "home" of UK english = true. home of "global english" = huh? English doesn't exist in one global form, but in many regional forms.... as has been amply proven above.
Why do people in different areas speak differently? Where do accents come from, how do they change and/or survive over time and why do we have them?
Reading recommendations on this topic would be welcome.
Some languages have a "regulatory body" issuing recommendations and guidelines regarding the use of that language.
For example in the case of Spanish it's the Real Academia Española whose status is recognised in all Spanish-speaking countries. The Academy, among other things, publishes a diction...
Do you think American English will keep on deviating from British English or they will one day become the same again due to globalization and worldwide mass media?
"English doesn't exist in one global form, but in many regional forms.... as has been amply proven above." Indeed, there is English, and there are otehr variances
Furthermore, I believe, the use of color, is only in American english, as elsewhere, it is spelt colour, including Canada
UK English is way too vague, as it would include Irish, Scots and Welsh who all have their own variance of english. English enlish doesn't exist as a term in general use
I have always thought it appropriate to clal English spoken in England as english, and to use derivatives elsewhere e.g. Scottish english, Welsh english, Irish english, American english, etc...
@torbengb can you explain why i was stopped from posting just now? I come back from a meeting to find I had been blocked for 30 minutes, apparently on my own?
Please @Beofett, let it rest. We don't want to add fuel to the [insert your region] English discussion. Also, there's one user who seems to be able to get others into arguments. Please don't let yourself be engaged in that, for the sake of the community (and for my sanity). In Denmark there's a saying that one should go after the ball, not the player...
However, I must ask: since I saw him complaining about it (despite being guilty of it himself), is not leaving comments explaining down votes something that a user can get in trouble for?
You're right - I almost never downvote without comment either. How else can we learn? Still, any author has the right to remain on his course despite a comment, and I should not attempt to sway him with more comments. I've made my point, and move on. End of story.
I remember when Boston was in the middle of the Big Dig. They had a HUGE construction orange sign on the way in to downtown on 93, it said, "Rome wasn't built in a day. If it was, we'd have hired their contractors!"
@Lennartregebro I'll admit that I'm not hip on the entire history between DK and SE. They don't teach that in the US much outside of a European History college course, and I wasn't a history major :D
@Darwy Well, essentially Kristoffer the II went bankrupt in 1332, and borrowed large amounts of money with different parts of the country as security. Hence, at 1332 Denmark practically ceased existing.
His son started taking pieces back (notably without paying the loans back, hence theft) in 1340.
Hey apparently I missed the best part of today's chat! An American in Denmark, a Swede in Poland - and I'm a Dane in Austria. "Hello, my name is Torben and I'm an IKEA addict too." crowd greets back :-D
Meh, I'm not a fan of IKEA; at least, not their beds. If you buy a bed there, you have to buy all your linens there too, otherwise they don't fit because the size is off from 'normal' beds
Do you think American English will keep on deviating from British English or they will one day become the same again due to globalization and worldwide mass media?
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