TRPG General Chat

Alex P

12:11 AM

@BESW That was my first thought as well.

@JonathanHobbs I like most of its predictions as well, but I can't shake the feeling it's missing something.

doppelgreener

12:26 AM

@AlexP One thing I know it's lacking in is software details. I wonder how the software will work.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Better than it has any right to?

doppelgreener

Since it will be software that needs to interact with thoughts, it will almost certainly not line up with our current software paradigm.

@BESW Hahaha. Probably

BESW

Hmm. I can't remember the name of the guy... my mother frequently cites an early programmer who codified the idea that two programs with a 1% chance of crashing do not, together, have a 1% chance of crashing.

doppelgreener

... really?

I hope you do remember that guy. I want to read about that.

BESW

12:41 AM

@JonathanHobbs It's either Dijkstra or Wirth, I think. Looking.

@JonathanHobbs On Our Inability to Do Much

doppelgreener

Ah! Right. Now I'm on the same page.

Two components with a 99% chance of success, run together, have only a 98.01% chance of success.

BESW

> half a million lines of code, each guaranteed to be 99.9999% correct, would yield a program that could have about a 40% chance of falling over.

doppelgreener

Actually that's a 60% chance of falling over; 40% chance of succeedeing.

99.9999% to the power of one million = 40%

BESW

@Greg Hi!

Greg

@BESW hello!

BESW

12:53 AM

@JonathanHobbs I guess the guy's math hit a p-to-the-n.

@Greg Glad to have you. Anything particular bring you here?

Greg

just poking around

BESW

Feel free to poke, lurk, ask questions, whatever.

Greg

i've actually never played tabletop rpgs. any good ones you can recommend?

BESW

@JonathanHobbs I'm very much not a programmer, but the philosophy of programming is rather fascinating.

@Greg Of course, but it depends on the kind of experience you're looking for. There are thousands of RPGs and RPG variants out there. The most famous is probably Dungeons & Dragons.

C. Ross

@Greg there are many good choices, but as BESW says, it depends what you want

BESW

12:58 AM

It's got a lot of star power, and if you're looking for a group in your area that's the system they're most likely to be playing, but the entry-level learning curve can be rather steep and it doesn't cater to all the gamestyles people are interested in; it's fairly focused on physical combat.

C. Ross

I think we're all geeking over Fate Core at the moment ...

doppelgreener

@BESW You may be interested in this, then: Controlling Your Environment Makes You Happy, about good user interaction design

BESW

Yeah, I've personally started using Fate recently--the "Core" version came out a couple months ago and is very cool for me because it supports the story-and-characters-before-physical-realism playstyle I enjoy.

doppelgreener

and possibly his article on Craftsmanship

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Sounds a lot like what I've heard called "the philosophy of polite programming."

@Greg I guess the fundamental issue to choosing a system is why a person is playing an RPG. Like a video game: you'd play Super Smash for very different reasons than you play Red Dead or Dear Esther.

doppelgreener

1:05 AM

@BESW Indeed, and that's probably a poor name to give it

Since being polite is not really what it's about

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Aye, but it's still all about the locus of control: a program that seizes the locus of control is rude.

doppelgreener

And yeah, I thought of you when I finished reading that article. Now I found out you'd be interested in it 8)

@BESW Well, polite programming isn't what he's talking about, which gets at this: "A user interface is well-designed when the program behaves exactly how the user thought it would."

A program seizing the locus of control is fine as long as that's what you expect it to do. Microsoft Office software doing things unexpectedly is what is not fine about it.

Greg

BESW, I usually go for Final Fantasy type games. But I will definitely check out D&D when I get the chance.

BESW

@Greg One reason I suggest Fate is that it's free (and I really like it) but it's not representative of the "typical" RPG that people think of when they consider the medium; "traditional" RPGs systems have players who control their own character and a Game Master who controls everything else in the world.

Fate's GM is more like "first among equals" but everyone at the table as a hand in creating the world they play in.

@JonathanHobbs I guess my problem is when the program is opaque about it.

@Greg If you want to get a really simple introduction to RPGs, there are systems that work well in chat contexts; I could start a game of Roll for Shoes with you right now with minimal rules explanation, if I weren't waiting for a phone call and trying to figure out which of 50 near-identical pictures is the one I should send to my client.

doppelgreener

1:21 AM

@BESW Yes, that is a huge problem. In part because of this: in a system where there are no options, the program works in only one way. Introduce one option (on or off) and it works in two ways. Introduce a second on-or-off option and the program can work in four ways (on/on, on/off, off/off, off/on). Make one of those options have three settings (a, b or c) and the program now works in six ways.

Every time you introduce any option for how even minor features work, you exponentially increase the number of ways in which the program works, which leads to increased chances of bugs and failure, especially when your extensive user testing fails to cover all possibilities.

For some, it increases productivity because it is doing what they expect (or what they come to expect, at least, after learning that's the way the program works and come to accept it and work with it). For the people you work with: huge problem.

BESW

This would be why I will never fully grasp why MS thought adding duplicate functionality into their office suite was a good idea.

doppelgreener

Which duplicate functionality?

BESW

You can do minimal Excel functions in Word, for example.

doppelgreener

@BESW That's not really duplicating functionality within Word, though, and that could be useful functionality within Word, couldn't it?

(Lunch time!)

BESW

Word is not a spreadsheet program, nor is it a picture editing program, or any of the other Weird Things it does.

afk myself; phone

mxyzplk

2:00 AM

@DuncanMatheson come and talk about the edits to your answer if you want.

doppelgreener

@mxyzplk Can I have your input on something? I have a question I'd like to ask and I am not sure how I should ask it.

mxyzplk

@JonathanHobbs Sure

doppelgreener

I have this question. I am not sure whether I should ask it all like this in one question, or split it into bits so the answers can go in-depth without being expected to respond to everything simultaneously (but then again, they won't be able to answer with the whole picture perhaps)

mxyzplk

@JonathanHobbs I think the first part and the magic item drops are large enough to be separate. Note many of your answers will be "use 4e then, what's your problem." Which has some merit, we have used FATE aspects atop Pathfinder for this very reason

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Not to derail the conversation or anything, but this seems to be Dijkstra's original paper. "On our inability to do much" is on page four.

@mxyzplk How can he make it clear that he wants it to be a 4e-flavored Fate game rather than a Fate-flavored 4e game?

(In order to reduce the "just use 4e" noise.)

doppelgreener

2:07 AM

Mm. I really want a couple of bits of 4e flavour but very much not the 4e system.

Some way to not receive that noise would be lovely.

mxyzplk

He can remove "fear of the unknown" because it is diametrically opposite from the FATE design philosophy to the point many will say that it's just not possible without throwing out what makes FATE FATE, which is a fine answer but may not help. The more you break this down into pieces the more likely you may get some help without people tossing out your whole concept, but of course that should be balanced against "too many questions"...

doppelgreener

@mxyzplk By "the first part", do you mean everything above the magic item drops?

mxyzplk

yes

poweer/feature and dice rolls are technically separate but consumable as one.

"unknown in fate" is worth a question on its own but I'm telling you what the FATErs will answer which is "you're scuttling the planned use of the system by doing it"

doppelgreener

@mxyzplk That is why I am feeling very worried about actually proposing that. It is strange for Fate and seems against its philosophy on the surface.

mxyzplk

magic/drops will be large but useful

doppelgreener

2:09 AM

(and potentially very much against its philosophy in practice, depending on execution)

mxyzplk

So do 3 questions - "4e dial, powers and dice", "unknown in FATE"(doesn't need much of the 4e preamble except maybe to say you're trying to emulate that trad-game feel), "4e dial, magic/drops"

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Except for the fact that "discover existing aspect" is totally a Thing.

mxyzplk

#2 is interesting because it's why I don't like FATE; I'm a sim/immersionist gamer

So if there was an answer beyond "don't" I'd like to hear it too

doppelgreener

@mxyzplk An answer beyond "don't hide stuff"?

mxyzplk

yep

doppelgreener

2:11 AM

I may be able to ask that well, yeah.

mxyzplk

@JonathanHobbs or 'don't try that," or any other don't variant

BESW

Related: Do you have to reveal your NPC's aspects?

mxyzplk

@BESW yeah, but per that it's more profound really. "hiding" stuff is not done in FATE because the whole stance is author stance, engaging with the story and not the character per se.

It's worth a pretty in depth thoughtful discussion, if you can provoke one

BESW

I'm afraid the answers are going to default to "Fate is about story, stop worrying about mechanics," which is what I get most of the time when I try to ask about how the mechanics can support the narrative.

It's very frustrating to ask "I don't know how to do this instinctively yet, how can the mechanics help?" and the answer is "Lol, just do it."

mxyzplk

Yeah. Though some of that heavy storygamer attitude is retconning; a lot of FATE games are much more trad-lens (ICONS for example)

Where it's "you can have some meta story impact" not "you have to go Full Edwards"

BESW

2:17 AM

Mmm. I also go a little red-eyed when I see "Fate isn't crunchy, don't worry about mechanics" on a DFRPG-specific question.

mxyzplk

Yeah, with DFRPG and SotC my response is "why are there like 300 frickin pages of rules then"

doppelgreener

BESW has been considering posting a meta question on the general attitude that's frequently evident in those sorts of responses ("it's about the story, don't worry about the mechanics") which used to come up in every single question that ever asked about rules and fate in the same breath. Currently it seems to be the case people are no longer doing that.

There was previously a condescending attitude that came out in Fate mechanics answers that if you were asking about rules stuff, you probably didn't understand Fate and needed to be lectured on the basic foundations of the system.

mxyzplk

Eh. Meta questions about "people are acting like goons" seldom have any useful effect - it just moves the war there, and regardless of how the voting comes out on the meta it isn't really enforceable

Otherwise there would be a meta on "why do people misbehave so much when talking about monks"

more war, no real reasonably good outcome

BESW

If it continues, I'd want to frame the question more productively, because I've seen it in a few other systems, too: Generic system explanations in place of answers to the specific question.

mxyzplk

Always welcome to do it, just wonder what "answer" you envision that would improve things

@BESW Yeah that's a good point, but I think they might (and sometimes fairly) say that many questions are invalid because they don't understand the fundamental frame. Sim in FATE, roleplaying in 4e, you know... :-)

BESW

2:23 AM

@mxyzplk exactly!

mxyzplk

Not powergaming like a huge freak in 3.5e...

BESW

I'd be interested in opening a discussion about what we should do when posters don't seem to have a basic grasp of the topic they're asking about. Because it DOES happen, but it's being ASSUMED more often than it actually happens.

mxyzplk

Sure

BESW

So I think there could be a discussion about constructive responses when we THINK it's happening, but I'm waiting for another spate of such activity: it'd be silly to open up a meta question about history.

mxyzplk

Might be able to talk people into linking "basic non-trad FATE assumptions question?" (if there were one) to those instead of vomiting ink over it

doppelgreener

2:25 AM

@mxyzplk Somehow, it needs to not be a thing. It's disruptive. I am genuinely afraid to ask certain Fate questions because I fear just receiving answers from people who assume I don't know anything. I understand the system. I would like to explore the possibilities. I do not need to be lectured about how it works, much like I do not need to have the d20 mechanic of rolling it then adding a modifier and comparing to a DC to see if you win explained each time I ask a weird D&D question.

Case in point: This one.

Productive, healthy, nontoxic Fate community we have not.

mxyzplk

Sure. I think we had a "respect the question frame" discussion, let me look

hmmm don't see a meta on it.

well we did put

doppelgreener

@mxyzplk I see what you did there :)

mxyzplk

"There are many different tastes in games and different kinds of playstyle. All styles are welcome here, but attacking others' styles as wrong is not. As a rule, answer questions in the style they were asked - telling someone "they are playing wrong" is usually unwelcome and not constructive."

in the faq

but with this new Help Center crap no one can find/read it I'm sure

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Yeah, I had a question that basically said "DFRPG suggests my group make some decisions about the gameplay before we start; I'm new to this kind of gaming paradigm, so can you help me figure out what kind of decisions we should talk about?" and the answer was basically "Mechanics are bad."

doppelgreener

@mxyzplk We need an "About this place" section back.

mxyzplk

2:28 AM

@JonathanHobbs yeah instead of being 1 link in 30 mixed in.

BESW

@mxyzplk I'm not finding it any less helpful than the previous iteration....

But that's a rather low bar to hurdle.

mxyzplk

It's always OK to proactively say "I don't want this answer" in your question. People may or may not respect it but it helps people vote 'em down if they're not super justified.

BESW

I got voted down for saying that. Twice.

mxyzplk

you mean your question did?

BESW

Yes. I also got a lecture on the "GM mystique of perfect competence."

mxyzplk

2:34 AM

@BESW Downvotes are like STDs, if you don't get a couple you're not trying hard enough

BESW

Heheh.

Point taken, but -1 for taste.

@mxyzplk If you can track down any previous meta on this issue I'd be very grateful.

mxyzplk

@BESW meta.rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/2676/… is all I can find

where we added that bit tothe faq

doppelgreener

We need to discuss this in meta then.

Or somehow.

mxyzplk

Sure, ask away

doppelgreener

I consider it vitally important that I am able to ask unusual things about Fate, and expect that I will not receive responses from people thinking I don't understand the system I am talking about at all and need it re-explained to me and then to be told not to do what I'm trying to do. I should be able to comfortably expect people to go "Huh, that sure is strange. Let's see here..." and then respond with unusual answers followed by "I wonder how that would work out. Let me know how it goes!"

So...

Currently the environment's a bit toxic.

How can we actually bring it up?

mxyzplk

2:43 AM

meta q's fine. why not?

it's all timeless here baby

BESW

@JonathanHobbs I don't know if it'd be more or less productive to generalize the issue from being a Fate problem to being a "press here for condescending lecture" problem.

doppelgreener

Well, you did mention "people are being goons" doesn't work.

@BESW Do both. Offer the general idea and show that it's occurring in Fate.

mxyzplk

right, you'll want to think about what could actually help and then tune the question to fit. many people don't read meta and so will go on with the gooniness regardless unless the answer is a suggestion for something that'll help (like the pro format sysrec comment is a specific implementation of our sysrec policy that even the uninformed can see)

doppelgreener

Did you both decide "How should we respond when the question is unusual / the asker seems to not understand the system / something" would be decently constructive?

BESW

Mmm. Still want to wait for a clear contemporary example.

@mxyzplk At least one or two of the common Fate culprits do frequent meta, so there's that.

mxyzplk

2:45 AM

@BESW Then all you have to do is ask your pending questions and you'll get some!

doppelgreener

@BESW I will go drop my hide-stuff-in-Fate bombshell and see if it makes a splash, then, shall I?

BESW

@mxyzplk Yey.

doppelgreener

The current writing is at the bottom here

mxyzplk

you can probably cut it down to 1 sefl defense block

save the second for a comment on the first dbag

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Don't forget to include reference to the ideas on FC 79, or you'll get that earful.

mxyzplk

2:57 AM

Night all!

BESW

ttfn

doppelgreener

@mxyzplk Night, and thanks for your help!

BESW

3:44 AM

@JonathanHobbs Are you still fiddling with that?

doppelgreener

@BESW Stopped for a while, just now returned to it

BESW

Pedant powers, activate!

doppelgreener

You have edit privileges on this don't you?

You can use them, if you want.

I would appreciate the help, really!

BESW

Leave the ** in, so it'll translate with an easy copy-paste?

Oh, okay.

BESW

4:02 AM

Augh. I just missed out on all manner of comments.

here, have two links I was about to share.

13

Q: How valid is lying to players about the rolls they are making in The Dresden Files?

In last weeks Dresden Files game, the players followed the bad guy using a tracking spell, and found him in the projects at an apartment that they knew little about. Seeing his car, they decided to set it aflame to get him out of the apartment (and to identify it). The wizard's spell was a bit ...

24

Q: Should the GM in Dresden Files be telling us what the target numbers are for thaumaturgy spells and skill checks?

In the Dresden Files game I'm in, the game master never tells us the target numbers for thaumaturgy spells and skill rolls. We roll, he tells us whether we succeeded, life goes on. I've heard this isn't encouraged for Dresden Files, but this is par for the course for me; my background is largely D&...

dresden-files fate

doppelgreener

That's them.

BESW

I was away and didn't get to read any of the other comments you'd made.

I think some things can be fixed by just fiddling with the order in which they're said.

Magician

Mornin'

BESW

@Magician Hey.

@JonathanHobbs Check out what I've got between the title and the horizontal line I added. I think that's the quesiton right there.

doppelgreener

@BESW That's it

BESW

4:17 AM

...I want to put "contrariwise" in one of your paragraphs.

trogdor

lol

doppelgreener

@BESW That is a lovely word. Is there a place for it?

BESW

What about your desired aspect concealment doesn't get covered by p79?

because this might be stronger if you say "This aspect thing is covered by page 79, but I can't figure out the the skills/consequences thing; can I get help with that?"

@JonathanHobbs Yes. Two, in fact.

Dropped in a contrariwise for ya.

Several at this place are becoming attached to the outside world by having telephones put in their houses. KY1910

Tweeted by TweetsofOld on July 11, 2013 at 4:23 AM

I think we're nearing the end.

Anything you're still unhappy with?

BESW

4:50 AM

@Magician You there?

Magician

@BESW Every now and then

BESW

So, if I have a question such that I feel the site might want to respond to its context rather than its content (IE, answers about how I'm not using the right system for the gamestyle I'm trying for, when the whole point of the question is how to make those two things work together)...

...do you think it's better to include a bit saying "please don't do this," or to assume good faith despite previous (more than a couple months ago) activity that caused me to suspect this response in the first place?

On the one hand, it seems like the site's better able to handle a few off-color answers than it is able to handle a few ruffled feathers.

On the other hand, it seems dishonest to NOT speak up when that kind of behavior is expected.

Magician

@BESW I think articulating that you know it's a mismatch and want to make it work anyway would go a long way.

I recall some questions on 4e where the asker clearly approached it with simulationist ideas of previous editions, and I answered them with "you shouldn't be doing it, but here's how you might come close". If you acknowledge the fact that the system is not designed for this, you reduce the need for "you're doing it wrong"

And after that you can downvote the answers that ignore this :)

So, not "don't tell me it's wrong", but "I know it's unusual, but I still want it". That'd be my take.

Eilleen

5:08 AM

Hi!

Magician

@Eilleen Hello!

Eilleen

@Magician :D

Hey isnt it a little late?

Magician

@Eilleen Only 3pm here.

Eilleen

@Magician oh xD

my mistake! though u where from the states

were*

Hey

do you have any good ideas for ... mystery campaigns?

where the players have to look for clues or tie things together.....

Magician

How willing are you to look at other systems for this? Because Gumshoe is specifically this.

There are several pitfalls in, shall we say, classical D&D that can trivially ruin a mystery game

Failing a Search check and not finding the critical clue being the chief one.

Eilleen

5:16 AM

I cant

sorr

y*

D&D 4th ed exclusively

I just wanted a story

Magician

Another thing to consider in D&D mysteries are spells/rituals. Magic can be used to speak with dead, see what happened in a location at a given time, scry on the owner of an object, etc. You'd need to either design your mystery with their use specifically in mind (PCs have to speak with the corpse to get a clue - but what happens if they don't?), or to ban them (which rather ruins the whole point of having those things).

Eilleen

Im not asking for he details

just a simple sory .... a simple plot

Magician

Well, here's a story I ran with moderate success. An important person has been killed, and the party has to investigate. Their room has been shielded from any divination for privacy reasons, which makes it tougher. The suspects are the ones who stand something to gain. As PCs investigate, they see that everyone's being dodgy, everyone has a motive and an opportunity. That's because every single one of them has tried to assassinate the victim, and they all think they succeeded.

Eilleen

xDDDD

thats funny

well.... the irony of it is brilliantly funny

I heard about a king that asks help from the PCs to get rid of an evil wizard, but in the end the wizard was working for the king so that the king could apply new taxes and incomes and pin them on the problems the wiz was causing, when in reality he was keeping the new taxes for himself and a little profit for the wiz

Magician

@Eilleen "Never trust the person who hired you" is a PC maxim to live by.

Eilleen

5:26 AM

@Magician I think we haven't learn that yet

BESW

7:56 AM

@Magician Isn't that basically The Trouble with Harry?

BESW

8:32 AM

@JonathanHobbs I made some fiddly changes, partly based on Magician's advice and partly just for style/consistency/strength.

doppelgreener

9:42 AM

@BESW Ok. :) What'd you change?

Oh! /read read

BESW

I changed a word here and there that's unmarked.

I only focused on the "fear of the unknown" section though.

doppelgreener

@BESW Should I post it now?

I am about to go out so if I do I will post it then go and not be seen again until this time tomorrow morning or an hour later :)

BESW

Yeah, go for it.

Wait, one moment.

Let me massage that sentence.

doppelgreener

Mk

BESW

There.

doppelgreener

9:56 AM

0

Q: How can I keep the nature and capacity of NPCs hidden to generate a fear of the unknown?

In traditional games such as D&D, the mechanics of the NPCs you face are generally an unknown quantity. The players and the characters only have a rough idea of what an NPC is capable of, based on what they’ve already seen - ultimately, a player does not know much about his or her adversaries. Th...

gm-techniques fate-core

Afk! :D

doppelgreener

10:11 AM

And now I'm off for the night. Bye! :)

BESW

G'night.

Zachiel

2:07 PM

0

A: What bonuses and penalties do 4-hoofed race impose?

While your title asks about 4-hooved creatures only, the question you made refers to centaurs. The first points of my list specifically address the benefits and disadvantaged of being a quadruped and of having hooves, it then goes on with the implications of being a large size creature and specif...

fighting disinformation again ç.ç

BESW

This episode of Tweets to Campaign By features lost children.

Twenty children were lost in Lincoln Park on the Fourth. All but one returned to parents. IL1914

Tweeted by TweetsofOld on July 11, 2013 at 2:03 PM

Zachiel

Armors for centaurs: "Your GM might want to prevent you from gaining full bonus of a full plate since it covers only a third of your body."

That's why you need to get a armor that costs 4 times as much.

And should a centaur be found wearing half an human full-plate, yeah. +2 AC only and all the penalties I say

BESW

Why? Realism or balance?

@JonathanHobbs [wave]

doppelgreener

@BESW Hi!

BESW

hop on skype?

Zachiel

2:14 PM

trueness to the system. He's wearing a quarter of the money he should be

he's also covering less than that

maybe I'd lessen the penalties also, but I wanted to be dickish

Oh, to hell.

doppelgreener

@Zachiel Technically he should be paying only a portion of the money, since he can't wear the legs all that well.

Zachiel

I won't let him wear that, full stop.

"but the helm fits me!"
I don't care I said no.

Having me as a DM must be hard.

doppelgreener

Well... playing a centaur would be hard too. You're a player character who now has to pay, what, 4x more for armor?

Alex P

@JonathanHobbs That's only for the non-magical part of the cost, isn't it?

Stairs, however, will always be the bane of your existence.

doppelgreener

@AlexP I don't know to tell the truth :)

BESW

2:22 PM

@AlexP It's worse for cows.

doppelgreener

So you either get all the benefits of being a centaur and also get some affordable armor or you go with the system balance that says you have to pay a lot more as a fee for being this cool.

D&D just kinda makes it hard to be nonstandard and cool race-wise.

I think?

Alex P

@JonathanHobbs Hence "Level Adjustment" in 3.x. It's very much a tax for being weirder. And they really overestimate the value of some abilities vs. just having another character level.

BESW

Aye, LA generally makes things much harder, practically speaking.

Losing HD, BAB, etc.

(especially since so many spells and effects use HD to determine power level.)

doppelgreener

@AlexP Some here are of the position WotC deliberately inflated LA so as to encourage people to not be monster races.

BESW

It makes sense; the first MM was explicit on that topic.

doppelgreener

2:33 PM

I guess I just don't like the thing where if you want to be something neat you get punished for it in various ways.

Zachiel

Centaurs ain't that bad. The main tax for LA is HP and the +4 con bonus pretty much offsets that

doppelgreener

But I guess that is an unavoidable consequence of their approach to races (and NPCs and PCs sharing races in all the same ways)

Zachiel

they also have a huge str bonus and a good dex, they only lose 3 BAB so they can get to 16 by level 20 and good skills

not bad for a barbarian or for a fighter

Alex P

@Zachiel Well, I'd say the main tax for LA is caster levels. >.>

BESW

@Zachiel You know what Lord_Gareth or KRyan would say about that.

Zachiel

2:35 PM

If one is rolling a centaur I don't think he wants a full caster.

BESW

They'd say that any race that isn't suitable as a full caster doesn't need any extra punishment.

Zachiel

@BESW I was adding a comment on those being low tier. Because that's exactly what I would say about that.

Alex P

If anyone really wants to play a centaur I'd recommend trying to find a version of Planescape's bariurs instead.

They're sorta goat-centaurs.

Zachiel

I like Hybsils

Alex P

Which makes them suitably smaller -- less stat wonkiness, they fit very easily into human-sized spaces, &c.

Zachiel

2:37 PM

there must be a printing error somewhere

+8 dex for +1 la

small

lots of other good stats for rogues or casters

fey type

Alex P

Generally I don't like players being too-weird things in D&D because I feel like most games of it I've played don't really explore being a weird thing too well. At which point it's kinda like you're playing a human in a Halloween costume anyway.

Zachiel

mmmh apparently they were errata'ed to LA +3

with 3.5

wax eagle

@AlexP this, so much this

Alex P

Like, there's not that much room to make a party-based adventure game really about your centaur culture or whatever. Just on the basis of it mostly being a game about an adventuring party. You can bring it in peripherally, of course. But not super-satisfying.

Zachiel

@AlexP The thing I hate is that happens even if you're playing humans

D&D truths "Being a fighter is fun until the cleric has divine power"

Alex P

2:40 PM

@Zachiel But it's less of a headache, at least. Also we're kinda used to "people in funny makeup save the world" as how these things can just, go. Whereas I find it jarring to have a centaur do classic-fantasy stuff because of how often it seems I have to ignore his centaur-ness. This is less the case for, say, an elf.

Zachiel

It's more like table football miniatures dressed as humans, as far as characterization goes in my group

@AlexP not this elf: giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258370

I find it really hard to play elves. What are they doing in the campaign? Why should they care? Elves should show up for defeating demon armies and the like!

Alex P

@Zachiel The "Why aren't these elves as SRS BSNS as Lord of the Rings?" problem?

I feel like if you want a LotR-ish long-lived elven sensibility in a game that doesn't revolve around elves, you really have to throw them into decline. Why are they here among these other, short-lived people? Because there is nothing else left for them. And it drives a lot of grief and pain.

doppelgreener

@Zachiel That's a printing error? There's an answer somewhere about a mole-race which gets +4s and +8's to almost all attributes for LA 2 or 3

I am probably misremembering those details but the general idea is there ^

@AlexP So what? There's not much room to explore the dwarf and the kobold in the party either really. That isn't required to let the player play a centaur.

Alex P

@JonathanHobbs At least with the dwarf I'm not constantly having to mentally paper over the fact that he can't, like, FIT places.

Also kobolds annoy me just like the other D&D small races annoy me. I feel like the game's kinda relying on you to forget a halfling (in later iterations) isn't just hobbit-sized but a freakin' small child.

doppelgreener

Personally I have always been attracted to the idea of playing a Warforged (except for huge LA). Character background exploration? Not necessary. Civilisation? Doesn't exist, don't care. Just want to explore being a Warforged in whatever we do. Maybe get my Warforged's chassis modified to store hidden weapons.

Alex P

2:52 PM

I like Warforged.

I think Warforged are weird races done right for D&D purposes.

doppelgreener

So, y'know. "Can't explore their culture" is not a reason not to have a weird character.

Alex P

@JonathanHobbs Not culture, really. Mindset. That's what rubs me the wrong way.

doppelgreener

@AlexP What mindset?

BESW

I don't know if I like warforged, or if I like the ideas I have personally associated with them.

I suspect it's the latter, and strongly influenced by my attempts to recreate Tomb of the Cybermen with warforged.

doppelgreener

@BESW Mostly the latter for me. I like my interpretation of Warforged.

Even though it's pretty much the same thing. I just want to be my kind of Warforged.

Oh, that's what you mean.

@Zachiel They're a tool to use as appropriate. I have elves in my campaign which are very much long-lived and very much a part of the events with a reason to be there. They could be another race instead, but I went with elves. They work. They have reasons to care about the present moment, etc.

Alex P

2:58 PM

@JonathanHobbs Whatever it might be. But the more "monstrous" you go, the more you've got beings whose lives are likely to be dramatically different from human ones, especially in a more conventional-type fantasy setting (big asterisk here). The "humans in funny makeup" is already kinda stilted and frustrating for me, so adding "human in a horse costume except he took the mask off" sometimes feels like a bridge too far.

The big asterisk: it might work in the hyper-cosmopolitan "we're more like an augmented future than the middle ages" kind of setting.

doppelgreener

@AlexP Okay you've got something big going on around strange races I don't get :P

Alex P

I think the only time I've seen someone's species be interesting in a D&D game, it was warforged. Everything else might as well be humans.

@JonathanHobbs "What is the point of this if we're not going to consider the consequences?"

JohnP

Man...it is sometimes extremely frustrating trying to explain technical concepts to non technical people.

doppelgreener

@AlexP Why does that require any extraneous effort on your part? It doesn't call for anything like what you mentioned earlier - making the game about your centaur culture, or whatever. You don't have the job of exploring the consequences. The player does. Put the party through situations, have NPCs react to "oh my it's a centaur" if you so please. Let the player explore what it's like being a centaur in those situations other people go through.

Those don't have to be "so we have a centaur in the party and we're gonna explore that" situations; they can just be "so there is a ruined castle and you're going to go pillage it and kill some orcs" situations.

Maybe we have a very different approach to playing or DMing or world creation but I don't see why introducing a strange character suddenly should become a big deal and how if massive exploration of that character cannot be done on a world level it would be perceived as a waste.

I don't pick playing, say, a pixie, so that the GM will spin entire stories around my pixieness and possibly pixie culture and the pixie kingdom. I just want to play a dang pixie, and play through the fun stuff I would otherwise. I never need to formally meet and greet another pixie for the duration of the campaign.

Alex P

My GMing expectations are that I don't really care about the world. It's a background for the fiction. I don't at all own that fictions, since we're creating that together in play. But if all that having a centaur as the protagonist adds is "Also he was a centaur!" every 20 minutes, that seems like a pointless diversion.

doppelgreener

3:09 PM

@AlexP Well, it's not, since it's not like that.

... and I'm really not sure why you see it like that. I can get you're not particularly interested in playing any sort of fancy creature yourself but it's really not about that.

Alex P

Because I feel like D&D "races" really just end up being personality shorthand that takes away more than it adds.

doppelgreener

@AlexP Depends on the player.

I have a friend who chose to play a Goliath since it fits and supports the character he wants to play very well. Goliaths have a world view that life is a grand competition. He could be a human from some culture that has that world view, but he picked a Goliath because he could. It isn't "oh and he's a goliath!" every 20 minutes, it's him roleplaying his character as competitive throughout.

Alex P

To me it feels like shoehorning even more into an already overly-shoehorned framework (stories about "the adventuring party").

doppelgreener

Another friend chose to play a dragonborn, and just plays his character with nothing in particular about being a dragonborn, so far. That's fine. For him, he's a dragonborn and he enjoys that. Nothing wrong with that any more than, say: "But this human is asian! Shouldn't they be roleplaying being asian?" No they can just roleplay being a person, and if they enjoy who their character is that's fine.

Then... well, it isn't.

I ... don't really know what to say at this point really.

Alex P

@JonathanHobbs I do think there's a value in this, which is that the nicely-packaged races in the books serve as a substitute for murky setting development. Like big setting chunks you can kitbash together easily.

Especially as big setting chunks that can be brought in and shaped by the players, in an otherwise pretty GM-centric framework.

Species substituting for ethnic groups is kind of ugly when you drill down into it, though, in my opinion. Which is why I don't really like the comparison to being Asian.

doppelgreener

3:22 PM

I'm not trying to substitute species for ethnic groups, but it's the most useful plain comparison I can draw here. Playing an Asian human doesn't mean you have to be a different kind of person or do anything special or Be Asian all the time - that is silly. You're just a human, and you can play as such, unless it's important to play otherwise.

Similarly, nothing wrong with playing a dragonborn who is just a person.

I'm imagining an in-world conversation: "You don't seem like a normal dragonborn to me. Shouldn't you be doing, like, dragonborny things?" "Like what? Asking stupid questions too?"

(Dragonborn then returns to whatever it was he was doing.)

Alex P

Hmm... Okay, there it is, I think: I despise fantasy "races" as a stand-in for, well, race. I understand that this is a really thoroughly-established trope, though. I'd much prefer something like, say, Love Is the Plan the Plan Is Death. But "Let's play every weird thing under the sun just like we play elves!" seems backwards to me. I'd rather not even play elves like the game pretty much expects you to play elves.

@JonathanHobbs I actually like dragonborn, paradoxically. Because I think they're on just barely on the right side of that, and D&D kinda desperately needed more dragons.

BESW

[steps in] The difference between your approaches is the extent to which you each see being non-human as being inherently other.

Alex P

@BESW Very much so.

I watched Star Trek as a kid. I've already had a lifetime of Forehead Aliens.

BESW

@AlexP It sounds like you feel that the less a fantasy "race" shares common physical characteristics with humans (like life span), the more inhuman its psyche must be.

Zachiel

@AlexP Don't play a Tuladhara then!

BESW

3:28 PM

@JonathanHobbs It sounds like you're running with the idea that all sentient life --at least, within reason-- is probably similar in its a fundamental psychological makeup.

doppelgreener

@BESW Not all, but if a player decides a dragonborn doesn't have to behave a particular way that's fine. Illithids, though, do have certain ways they should be behaving and an Illithid who just goes about regular person business and is a gentleman and so on would be weird.

So, yes, all within reason I guess!

Alex P

So, in a D&D-ish context, I like like dragonborn, tieflings, and warforged more than elves. I think they all manage to do a better job of being the right blend of human and not. Partly because their backgrounds are connected to humans (well, I don't remember what the actual DB background is).

BESW

Personally, I find that there's value both in stretching the bounds of the psyche we can understand by exploring inhuman mindsets, and in using surrogates that exaggerate elements of our own experience in order to examine ourselves at arm's length.

And if you want to just be an extra-strong guy and the mechanics say that means you're a goliath, that's cool too.

Alex P

Centaurs just seem like a giant bag of plot inconveniences with no real payoff.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs ...I have a fanfic I need you to read.

Not now, it's late.

But it's about, effectively, an illithid who just goes about regular person business.

Alex P

3:36 PM

Ditto how characters that fly (especially in a typically bird-like way, not just pixie/hummingbirding around) just seem way too annoying mechanically to be worth playing in a 3.x-like "lots of rules and super-specific positioning" kind of game.

doppelgreener

@BESW That sounds lovely. :)

BESW

Agreed there; the mechanics get in the way of themselves. I consider it balance through obfuscation.

BESW

4:32 PM

The Joker Blogs started up again in May and nobody told me.

Lord_Gareth

5:34 PM

@AlexP You will like Legend flight.

shatterspike1

That's mostly just adjacency rules, right?

Lord_Gareth

@shatterspike1 Pretty much.

@shatterspike1 Essentially, you cannot attack a [Flying] creature with [Melee] attacks, and they cannot attack you with [Melee] attacks unless either A. both of you are [Flying] or B. neither of you are actively [Flying]

shatterspike1

Same thing for [Swimming], right?

Lord_Gareth

Yep. [Burrowing] is the opposite - you can only attack a [Burrowing] creature in [Melee] unless A. both of you are currently [Burrowing] or B. neither of you are currently [Burrowing]

shatterspike1

5:50 PM

Alright

I'm reading through all the Legend rules, attracted by the prospect of playing a full buy in Fire/Water/Air/Earth Elemental

Lord_Gareth

Omnimentals are pretty popular.

Oh, hey - don't quote me on [Burrowing], I'm not entirely solid on the movement rules just yet. Make sure to read it for yourself.

shatterspike1

I did, I think that's right

Lord_Gareth

I am totally not an expert on Legend rules as of yet.

shatterspike1

The [Swimming] one is the one that gets me; water is very near bulletproof.

Although I suppose it's for balance reasons.

Lord_Gareth

@shatterspike1 The mechanics are gamist/narrativist, not simulationist. Simulation was deliberately avoided in favor of abstraction.

shatterspike1

5:54 PM

Most of the Narrativism seems to come from advice and not the ruleset itself, aside from the [Legend] rules and a few feats

Mostly the refluff stuff they're so big on

Lord_Gareth

Indeed. Rule of Cool is very big on the idea that you can and should come up with your own fluff.

God only knows they spent long enough doing that for 3.5

shatterspike1

I'm not sure why 3.5 gained the popularity it did, looking at it now

Lord_Gareth

I've done it with monsters quite a bit - my Spriggans are mooks with the Ghoul and Earth Elemental tracks

@shatterspike1 My running theory is dark sorcery.

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