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12:00 AM
@crl Wow, really? I find symbolic manipulation totally incoherent in a dream or even in daydream.
 
crl
12:24 AM
@Mitch yes, that's not so hard, try starting your sleep (consciously) on the problem definition, etc.. and it may reappear during the sleep, and if you have a solution, you must repeat it several times in your sleep so you don't forget it
Most of the time I don't find solutions, but some ways to explore at least
 
Jez
what's the proper punctuation in prose when you're writing speech that ends with a dash?
like "yes, I-" Alice was not allowed to finish
that doesn't look right
 
crl
"yes, I ..uh.."
 
Jez
yeah but i'm ending with a dash
Jesus
this place is like a morgue
damnit I bet Kit would know this
 
crl
12:53 AM
ping her, for a future help
 
crl
1:09 AM
 
Jez
@KitZ.Fox @Robusto @Mitch @MattE.Эллен et al. please could you proofread my first chapter? game-point.net/misc/story1.pdf
all constructive criticism welcomed :-D
 
1:45 AM
@Jez Interesting idea, and the first couple of paragraphs have a magnetism to them. I think you explain too much, though. You're writing too much, instead of letting the writing happen, if you get my meaning.
 
WTF, I used the timer on my iPhone for 43 minutes and it used 12% of by battery?!
 
I will tell you what I tell most new writers: write. A lot. You have a lot of crap in you that has to come out before you can get to the good stuff. Write like you mean it, but know you will throw much of it away. Maybe all of it. Doesn't matter. Nobody got to be a good writer by not writing, and if you ever take a look at the first works of some who became outstanding writers—well, you probably won't, because they don't usually show that stuff.
So take heart. You've taken the first step. Congratulations. If you keep at it, you may get good at it. But only if you keep at it.
 
Damn, timing up to the hundredths of a second consumes a lot of energy.
 
@infinitesimal Six hours of battery life? Sounds about right for an iPhone.
 
2:15 AM
Thanks for the info :-)
The phone felt warm after using the timer?
 
Well, whoever made the app has to download all your personal data.
 
 
6 hours later…
Jez
8:37 AM
@Robusto a little bit hazy there
explain too much?
give an example where i explained unnecessarily
 
 
3 hours later…
11:55 AM
@infinitesimal Sounds reasonable.
 
12:07 PM
@infinitesimal Why would you need such precise timing? One tenth of a second is good enough, since human reaction time is about of that order. It never makes sense to use 2 dp, unless you start and stop with a machine.
 
 
1 hour later…
1:11 PM
"The fact that it was cold was somewhat irrelevant. The downward trend in
temperature had long since ceased to be a concerning factor in 1466's mind. *This
just makes it easier to get to sleep. It makes me feel naturally drowsy. I
haven't really the energy to shiver, so that isn't keeping me awake either.*
Nevertheless, she was kept awake from time to time by worry about her
predicament. *Haha!* She made herself laugh inside, sometimes. What did she have
to worry about? She knew what problems she would encounter tomorrow; the same
The whole paragraph is telling too much. But for a specific example, you have her thinking Haha! and in the very next sentence you explain that "She made herself laugh, sometimes."
 
Jez
2:12 PM
hmm
but that's making it clear that she didn't laugh out loud
 
@Jez How is your dating?
 
Jez
same as usual
 
No good news?
 
Jez
depends how you define good news
i'm not with a terrible woman
 
Oh, but you have a girlfriend now?
 
Jez
2:13 PM
nope
 
Same here, still struggling with mental illness and not working, after so long.
 
@Jez Which was handled by the italics.
 
@Jez Maybe try to message more people by lowering your criteria, you might meet someone who exceeds them in that way.
Hmm, Matt is not here today.
 
2:34 PM
@tchrist: If I were to switch my keyboard to Spanish for use in that language, how easy would it be to make the accented characters? Would it be possible to keep my fingers from leaving the home keys? (I know I can leave them there when I use the Mac, but it's still awkward to do the setup keystroke and the follow-on specifier).
 
Never leave your fingers on the keyboard. You can't fix them back later.
 
@Robusto I agree that the diacriticked characters require annoying setup strokes, but at least they are easy to remember: no numbers needed. The Mac does have a Spanish keyboard, but I'm not very thrilled with it and do not use it. Perhaps one could get used to it. spanishdict.com/answers/100808/…
 
Thanks.
 
It basically absolves you of the need to use Opt with the diacritics, at the cost of making it harder to type the regular ones.
I find its choices are not programmer friendly.
I just make do with the standard setup. spanish.about.com/od/writtenspanish/a/diacritical_mac.htm
 
3:34 PM
@tchrist If I were going to install Spanish, which variety should I choose? There is a keyboard layout for every frickin' country!
 
No clue.
I assume this is for everything, not just something you could add with some browser plugin.
> Misquoting and twisting the words of God have been going on for a very long time indeed.
You are Godwinned, and I claim my five pounds.
-2
A: Where did "God helps those who help themselves" originate?

suzeeI came upon this quote on a website ... God helps only those who are prepared and determined to help themselves. -Adolf Hitler, 06 Nov. 1938, Weimar It is ironic (or perhaps not so ironic) that people confuse Scripture with statements originating from sources which are in direct opposition to ...

 
3:51 PM
hey, I'm blanking out on a word. The word starts with an 's' and means someone who follows an important person around (at court) to curry favour. An important person will have many of these people around him.
 
That just proves Benjamin Franklin's genius; he came up with everything, whether he said it first or last.
 
@noahnu That sounds like a flunky but maybe you're thinking of sycophant.
 
@noahnu sycophant
jinx!!
 
Or toady.
 
yes sycophant
thanks!
 
3:53 PM
no toads in chat. or suck ups. or toad suck-ups.
 
But what if you like toads or toadies?
 
Staples of authority
 
> You can now read 76.9% of all real Spanish text
Still not ready for Borges or Marquez. :(
 
@Robusto Why don't you just pick it up and see?
 
Before I came to the chat, I tried a few different thesauri. None of them gave me anything close. Any recommendation for a good thesaurus?
 
3:57 PM
Reading a good book is an effective way of learning a language.
 
@tchrist: I installed "Spanish, Spain, International sorting" as opposed to "Spanish, Spain, traditional sorting." I'm sure you know what the difference is.
@Cerberus I did. I labored over the first paragraph of 100 Años de Soledad before arriving at my conclusion.
@Cerberus Yes, but I have to achieve a critical mass of vocabulary before I can tackle literary works.
Más o meno.
 
Servile sycophants forever fawning, kowtowing, ass-kissing, and brown-nosing their insinuative way up the backsides of those holding real power as if a tonsil inspection done from the bottom up instead of top down.
2
 
Oh, okay.
Perhaps 100 Años de Soledad is very difficult. Then start reading a different novel?
How about Don Quixote?
Maybe a modernised version.
 
@Robusto That isn’t really the right diametric pairing. Traditional sorting treats ch and ll as digraphs. International sorting sounds like an unmodified Unicode Collation Algorithm, but you cannot use that on Spanish or your eñes will sort wrong. Doubtless though they actually mean the post-traditional Spanish sorting, which preserves la eñe’s special place following la ene and preceding la o.
@Cerberus Well....
 
?
 
4:04 PM
El Quijote is perhaps a ponderous read by modern standards, even with modernized spellings.
 
@tchrist Well, it does make diacriticism easier.
 
I would recommend Ficciones by Borges for Rob.
In part because they are short stories, in part because they are speculative fiction of the "magical realism" sort produced seemingly uniquely by speakers of Iberian tongues.
But there are many Borges volumes of collected short fiction pieces.
The rest of the world could call them fantasy, but written in Spanish or Portuguese they become magical realism. I have no @#$%% clue why.
 
@tchrist I read the Book of Sands collection in English and very much want to read it in Spanish.
 
That should be easy to come by.
Here, try this nested microstory-within-a-story from Borges’s Al Aleph:
> Cuentan los hombres dignos de fe (pero Alá sabe más)
que en los primeros días hubo un rey de las islas
de Babilonia que congregó a sus arquitectos y magos
y les mandó construir un laberinto tan perplejo y
sutil que los varones más prudentes no se aventuraban
a entrar, y los que entraban se perdían. Esa obra
era un escándalo, porque la confusión y la maravilla
son operaciones propias de Dios y no de los hombres.
Con el andar del tiempo vino a su corte un rey de
los árabes, y el rey de Babilonia (para hacer burla
I think you will find the language of Borges to be quite readable. It is his thoughts that are complex.
 
@noahnu Roget's (thematic, not dictionary style) is the classic English thesaurus. There's on line stuff, just keep looking. Dictionaries/thesauruses are always disappointing, but they're better than nothing.
@tchrist Didn't he write a lot in English? (non-translated)
 
4:13 PM
@Mitch He grew up fully bilingual in English and Spanish.
And was an English professor.
But to be honest, I have only ever read him in Spanish.
 
@tchrist because the marketers are simple minded.
@tchrist I'm confused.. castellano = Spanish?
 
Cuentan meaning ¨they count¨? Or is it some form of "an account"?
 
@Mitch Yes of course.
@Robusto Tell, recount.
 
Ah, that's what I was going for. It was hidden in the shadows of my vocabulary.
 
> Borges was a notable translator. He translated works of literature in English, French, German, Old English, and Old Norse into Spanish. His first publication, for a Buenos Aires newspaper, was a translation of Oscar Wilde's story "The Happy Prince" into Spanish when he was nine.
> At the end of his life he produced a Spanish-language version of a part of Snorri Sturluson's Prose Edda. He also translated (while simultaneously subtly transforming) the works of, among others, William Faulkner, André Gide, Hermann Hesse, Franz Kafka, Rudyard Kipling, Edgar Allan Poe, Walt Whitman, and Virginia Woolf.
That "subtly transforming them" thing is interesting.
Reminds me of Saramago.
> Borges wrote and lectured extensively on the art of translation, holding that a translation may improve upon the original, may even be unfaithful to it, and that alternative and potentially contradictory renderings of the same work can be equally valid.[72] Borges also employed the devices of literary forgery and the review of an imaginary work, both forms of modern pseudo-epigrapha.
And you can see where Eco took up that theme.
 
4:19 PM
Cuentan los hombres dignos de fe (pero Alá sabe más)
The dignified men of faith (but Allah knows better) recount

que en los primeros días hubo un rey de las islas
how in the early days there was a king of the islands

de Babilonia que congregó a sus arquitectos y magos
of Babylon who gathered their architects and mages

y les mandó construir un laberinto tan perplejo y
and commanded them to build a labyrinth so perplexing and

sutil que los varones más prudentes no se aventuraban
subtle that the most prudent men would not venture
 
The subject is the men of faith.
 
Oh, Ok.
 
Spanish uses VS order not SV order quite often in primary clauses, particularly with certain verbs. This is one of them.
Sus should be his not their there, probably, referring to the king’s.
 
Sí.
 
But that is well done.
 
4:22 PM
Gracias.
 
The critic notes that we are already in the surreal: Babylon no isles hath.
 
                                        Esa obra
                                        That work

era un escándalo, porque la confusión y la maravilla
was a scandal, because confusion and marvel

son operaciones propias de Dios y no de los hombres.
are operations proper to God and not to men.
 
Yes.
 
@tchrist Yes. But there might have been islands when the two rivers flooded.
I have to go help my wife, but I will finish this later. Thanks.
 
That’s the right translation, but do recall propia is about ownership. *Mi propia idea" is my own idea.
"Proper to" is of course literary in English, although not so much so in Spanish.
 
4:26 PM
@tchrist Well, proper is about property, no?
 
It can be.
 
> a. Belonging to one; own: restored to his proper shape by the magician.
 
heh
This Craft of Verse is a work of his recently published in the original English. It's transcribed from oral lectures he gave in English at Harvard.
Apparently these are remarkable lectures for a blind man without notes to avail himself of.
I’ve not read it.
 
@tchrist and Lem
 
@tchrist How do you mean?
 
4:31 PM
@Robusto and being clean
 
My brother read it recently.
He seemed to enjoy it.
@tchrist What does magical realism have to do with Iberia?
It is popular all over the world.
Or at least, has been.
It's too superstitious for me, though.
 
@Cerberus I’m citing a comedian.
 
Oh.
 
Well, a satirist at least.
Which arguably is not the same.
 
They can be the same.
But don't need to be.
 
Jez
4:51 PM
@Cerberus have you looked at my first chapter
 
crl
@Robusto maravilla = wonder, rather?
nvm ignore me, I didn't know the word marvel existed in English
marvellous, oh right
 
5:30 PM
@crl marvel means wonder as well, and is closer to the sound, which is why I chose it.
 
An eggcorn for the ages: lame man.
 
6:22 PM
@crl Wonder is more commonly used in English. The Seven Wonders of the Ancient World.
 
7:07 PM
posted on March 06, 2015 by sgdi

There once was a man who ate babies They said he might have had rabies His sanity gone He kept chewing on The new borns and dipped them in gravy

 
7:18 PM
@tchrist When I have a choice, I prefer to translate into words that keep the same sound as the original.
 
@Robusto I understand the usefulness of doing that for your reasons of memorization. However, the cognate derived from Latin will nearly always be of a higher register in English than in modern Romance. Quotidian, matinal, missive, crepuscular, apocopate, antediuluvian, antebellum, fluvial, etc.
 
@Jez Chapter of what? I know nothing about this (and I don't have much time).
 
Con el andar del tiempo vino a su corte un rey de
With the passing of time there came to his court a king of

los árabes, y el rey de Babilonia (para hacer burla
the Arabs, and the King of Babylonia (in order to mock

de la simplicidad de su huésped) lo hizo penetrar
the simplicity of his guest) did penetrate

en el laberinto, donde vagó afrentado y confundido
into the labyrinth, where he wandered, affronted and confounded,

hasta la declinación de la tarde.
until he declined later on.
 
Heh.
Till evening.
Till sunset.
 
7:24 PM
Till night fell.
 
@tchrist Cómo?
For de la tarde?
 
"hasta la declinación de la tarde" is not the decline of the lost king, but the day.
 
OIC
Yeah, that makes more sense.
 
Also, lo hizo penetrar is "made him enter".
 
So tarde is afternoon or evening? I suppose it must be.
 
7:26 PM
Tarde is afternoon or evening.
 
I was thinking it was slowness, tardiness. D'oh.
 
Well, anytime after la comida a las 2 de la tarde.
It is true that tardarse is to be late.
Well, or just tardar for somebody else. :)
 
Entonces imploró
Then he implored

socorro divino y dio con la puerta. Sus labios no
divine succor and slammed the door. His lips did not

profirieron queja ninguna, pero le dijo al rey de
offer any complaint, but he told the king of

Babilonia que él en Arabia tenía otro laberinto y
Babylonia that he had another labyrinth in Arabia and

que, si Dios era servido, se lo daría a conocer algún
which, if God would be served, he would release it some

día.
day.
I'm not sure about se lo daría a conocer algún dia.
 
Dar con is a phrasal verb meaning "to come across".
There are a lot of ways to express "any complaint" depending on just what sort of emphasis you mean to place. This is an unusual one with the determiner postponed, so it puts more emphasis on it. Maybe "no complaint at all", "no complaint whatsoever", "nary a single complaint". Whatever, he kept his own counsel, and one soon sees why.
@Robusto Yes, that is complex. Just a sec.
The se is a dative le clitic for the other king that has been mandatorily swapped to se because the accusative clitic starts with L-.
The accusative clitic is masculine singular because it is agreeing with the labyrinth.
Darle a conocerlo something means to show something (to someone). So the offended king would, if God would be served,
show it (the lab.) to the other king some day.
The trailing clitics get promoted to the front of the verbal phrase in many cases. This is optional but common.
 
7:43 PM
                                                Lo
                                                Him

amarró encima de un camello veloz y lo llevó al
he tied onto a speedy camel and carried him into the

desierto.
desert.
@tchrist Yes, it is complicated.
 
@Robusto Yes. Or atop.
 
            Cabalgaron tres días, y le dijo: "¡Oh,
            They rode three days, and he said: "Oh,

rey del tiempo y substancia y cifra del siglo!, en
King of time and matter and number of the century!, in

Babilonia me quisiste perder en un laberinto de
Babylonia did I lose myself in a labyrinth of

bronce con muchas escaleras, puertas y muros; ahora
bronze with many staircases, doors and walls; now

el Poderoso ha tenido a bien que te muestre el mío,
the Mighty has seen fit to show you mine
 
Quisiste is the form, so you wanted to lose me.
The clitic me that would normally fall at the very end got promoted all the way to the front of the verb phrase. Quisiste perderme => Me quisiste perder
 
Luego le desató las ligaduras y lo abandonó en mitad
Soon he broke the bindings and abandoned him in the middle

del desierto, donde murió de hambre y de sed. La
of the desert, where he died of hunger and thirst. All

gloria sea con Aquel que no muere.
glory be to Him who does not hide.
 
To block one’s way. Something like that.
Luego is "then" here.
Not hide, but die.
morir
Hide is esconderse.
Well, hide oneself.
 
7:53 PM
OK. Thanks.
 
Very good though.
 
Well, it wasn't exactly easy reading. But I feel better for having done it. ^_^
 
Le dijo is "told him".
It is a good exercise, not a contrived one.
 
Thanks for that.
 
> As recounted by the worthy men of faith (but God knows more), in the
earliest days there was a king of the isles of Babylon who gathered
together his architects and mages and commanded them to build a
labyrinth so perplexing and subtle that the most prudent men would not
dare to enter it, and those who did enter would be lost. That work was a
scandal, for confusion and wonder are attributes peculiar to God, not to
men. Over time there came to his court a king of the Arabs, and the king
of Babylon (to make a fool of the simplicity of his guest) forced the
Cifra does mean digit or number or figure, but it can have other connotations — here a literal translation is actually called for.
The translation above is my own, BTW.
 
7:58 PM
@tchrist La cifra es un codigo?
 
Yes, it can be.
> 1. f. Número dígito.
2. f. Signo con que se representa este número.
3. f. Escritura en que se usan signos, guarismos o letras convencionales, y que solo puede comprenderse conociendo la clave.
4. f. Enlace de dos o más letras, generalmente las iniciales de nombres y apellidos, que como abreviatura se emplea en sellos, marcas, etc.
5. f. abreviatura (‖ representación de una palabra con solo algunas de sus letras).
6. f. abreviatura (‖ palabra así representada).
7. f. Cantidad de dinero.
8. f. Modo vulgar de escribir música por números.
I chose an elevated style for the translation so that it had an old-time feel to it, as befits some old parable repeated since time immemorial.
 
@tchrist Yes, that works. Nice job. I was just struggling with basic comprehension.
 
Thanks. I understood that. You did well.
I used to have "divine succour", but this ain’t no lollipop. "Cipher of the century" is a bit of a reach, and you have to understand the extended connotations of what a cipher is, but it preserves the alliteration of cifra del siglo.
At least, in Borges’s dialect, although not in my own.
 
crl
pero un nombre no es un cifra o un numero
 
Ah.
Then why was he addressed as cifra del siglo, eh? :)
It is definition number 9: Suma y compendio, emblema.
What would be a fitting English translation for that sense?
Translation is of course much, much harder than understanding. :)
Paragon is a good possibility.
 
crl
8:06 PM
Antigone (just remember to have read this :)
 
Yes, he’s long gone by now. :)
"Paragon of the age" might work fine, remembering that siglo can mean more than century alone. in saecula saeculorum.
 
What is Rob translating?
It sounds cool.
 
@Cerberus Borges.
 
Ah, just as I hoped.
The short stories you mentioned?
 
Yes.
A piece of one.
A nested story.
 
8:20 PM
Looks like poetry?
 
It is stylized prose.
 
Ah OK.
 
Hence my translation of "his lips proffered no complaint", which is not in the register of rap but that of literature.
Proffer is of the same register in Spanish as it is in English: not a common word.
Non-literary use would just be offer.
Or simply gave.
 
I agree.
I remember seeing proffer for the first time and mispronouncing it until I knew what it meant.
 
8:37 PM
I’ve never really considered how that Borges being bilingual in English from birth and a professor and translator of English Literature may (or may not) have at times subtly influenced his choices of words when writing in Spanish.
Arguably, English was his mother tongue, the one spoken at home, and Spanish was the language he acquired from where he lived.
Yet virtually everything he ever wrote (that I am aware of) was in Spanish.
 
Oh, I had no idea.
 
8:58 PM
We should learn some Finnish.
How about learning: Once upon a time I was falling in love. Now I'm only falling apart?
gt says: Olipa kerran olin rakastumassa. Nyt olen vain hajoamassa
no idea if it is correct.
 
@tchrist Arguably: Wikipaedia says merely that he was bilingual. His father's primary language was English, but his mother's Spanish.
It says nowhere that his primary language was English where it could have.
 
so what do you want to learn dog?
 
@Cerberus Heh, I was using mother tongue in absolutely the wrong way then. :)
 
 
1 hour later…
Jez
10:30 PM
hey @JohanLarsson why not review my book's first chapter
 
where is it?
in Lounge<C/C++> on Stack Overflow Chat, 23 hours ago, by melak47
@EtiennedeMartel never heard of the Company pattern? it's full of managers :)
 
ok starting
only longer; much longer
________^ fancy
when she has lost her former one <- is has correct?
Her back wasn't much better, either. not sure about the comma but I don't know comma.
 
Jez
@JohanLarsson oh, that should be "had"
 
(during work hours) <- don't love ()
the less crappy jobs <- not sure about crappy here
 
Jez
10:48 PM
why
 
nice story, I liked it
@Jez did not feel consistent for some reason. What about better?
 
Jez
well it was only the beginning
 
yeah, a good beginning
 
Jez
@JohanLarsson hmm, well i was trying to make the speech a bit more gritty
 
I'm surprised you have a female hero.
@Jez keep it then.
 
Jez
10:54 PM
i literally dreamt half the storyline up
and i dreamt a female
 
11:10 PM
@JohanLarsson Heroine addictions are hard to kick.
 
11:46 PM
Should Masters be plural (Masterses) in "including people with Masters from top universities"?
 

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