English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

MrHen

1:33 AM

21k. Got hosed by a 96 followed by a 48 both at the top of my board. :(

Cerberus

Wow nice!

Yeah that sucks.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

4:28 AM

Ahoy-hoy.

Jasper Loy

6:40 AM

Wow, the first rule of trolls is still on the star wall.

its_me

11:32 AM

A general question to you folks. Do you laminate your education certificates? (marks sheets, etc.) If not, how do you keep them safe?

Robusto

12:27 PM

►

KitFox

12:41 PM

@its_me I don't. Mine are framed behind glass.

Or just stuck in an envelope somewhere.

its_me

1:01 PM

@KitFox Ah, hmm.

Anyone know what the meaning of 'expressive game' is? e.g. Is chess an expressive game?

skullpatrol

1:26 PM

Games that profoundly affect us as books, movies, and music does, except with the added potential of personal interaction and immersion within the artform itself. These are expressive games.

@its_me It depends how seriously you play chess.

its_me

Ah, ok. Thank you @skullpatrol

skullpatrol

np

Jasper Loy

2:37 PM

@its_me I laminated some of them.

Robusto

2:51 PM

@KitFox Mine are stuck in a drawer somewhere, which, if I think about it and make some kind of effort, could locate in between one and six hours, depending on the day and my state of inebriation.

Let me rephrase: Mine are stuck in a drawer somewhere, which I, if I think about it and make some kind of effort, could locate in between one and six hours, depending on the day and my state of inebriation.

Sorry to have gotten lost in clausery and left out the subject for the second verb in that sentence.

Thought for the day: If you are sentenced to sixteen consecutive life terms in prison, could the judged who condemns you be described as sententious? Perhaps he would have to be pithy and yet somehow boring at the same time.

username901345

3:10 PM

"That question is of such private nature that I would like you to let me refrain from answering it." Is this correct?

skullpatrol

3:20 PM

"That question is of such a private nature, that I would like you to let me refrain from answering it."

username901345

Im sorry but mine hits more google results.

Such a prive...hits only one.

Cerberus

3:44 PM

@username901345 No, Skully is right, of course.

books.google.com/ngrams/…

@Robusto Or a Hindu.

@tchrist Breaking news: Russians invade the town of Hollandia in the Crimea! But the Dutch strike back and invade the village of De Krim in the Netherlands (De Krim is the Dutch name for the Crimea).

twitter.com/gvanopdorp/status/440125493678206976/photo/1

Robusto

4:36 PM

@Cerberus Perhaps it's more of a misdeed than an actual misdaad.

Cerberus

@Robusto It is indeed!

I didn't know you were aware of the subtle difference in meaning.

Een misdaad is more or less equivalent to a crime, whereas a misdeed can be broader, right?

Robusto

Seriously? You didn't know I'm aware of nuances in the meanings of words?

Cerberus

Not of all Dutch words, no.

But I stand corrected.

Robusto

I'm also fair at inference.

Cerberus

> Sergej Chruschtschow (in den USA lebender Raumfahrtingenieur und Politologe, Sohn Nikita Chruschtschows) vertritt die Meinung, dass die Abgabe der Krim an die Ukraine [von Chruschtschow] aus rein ökonomischen, nicht aus politischen, moralischen oder ethnischen Gründen erfolgt sei.
Zur damaligen Zeit seien Schifffahrtskanäle von der Wolga zur Krim und ins Donezbecken geplant worden, und es sei planerisch klüger gewesen, mit diesen Vorhaben nicht zwei Sowjetrepubliken, die Russische Föderative (RSFSR) und die Ukrainische, zu befassen, sondern nur eine.

Do we believe this?

Robusto

4:42 PM

Ask @Reg. He's the one who brought up Nikita in the first place.

Cerberus

Did he?

> Im Zuge der Auflösung der Sowjetunion wurde die Ukrainische Sozialistische Sowjetrepublik am 24. August 1991 in den bestehenden Grenzen zum unabhängigen ukrainischen Staat, dessen Teil damit auch die Krim wurde. Bei dem Referendum über die Unabhängigkeit der Ukraine vom Dezember 1991 stimmten 54 Prozent der Wähler auf der Krim mit Ja.[3]
Anfangs konnte Kiew die Herrschaft über die Krim nur sehr mühsam durchsetzen. Nur mittels erheblichem politischen Druck konnte ein Referendum über die Unabhängigkeit der Krim verhindert werden. Als Kompromiss wurde 1992 der Krim der Status einer Autonomen…

The German Wiki has the best information, as often.

Robusto

Besides, I don't think Russians ever do anything for purely economic reasons. I would bet that almost everything has for them a political motivation, nary a moral one, but sometimes an ethnic one.

Cerberus

Well, economics all to a political end.

But anyway, those wanting to defend poor Ukraine and its claim to the Crimea against the Russian barbarians are in need of a bit of...nuance.

Robusto

That conflation of attributions seems puzzling to me. If the elder Krushchev did make such fine distinctions he might have been merely disingenuous or hadn't thought it through.

Don'tcha love it when you click "See full text" and then there isn't any more text (but the link to click for it goes away)?

yesterday, by RegDwigнt

@Robusto history is being a bitch to Nikita again. That is what the fuck is going on in the Ukraine.

Cerberus

@Robusto Quite possible.

Where is this link?

Robusto

4:51 PM

Can't you click on it?

Cerberus

Where do I click? What link?

Oh, you mean in a long chat message?

I didn't get that link for my own message.

Robusto

What link do you think I mean?

Cerberus

I had no idea, I thought something on the Wiki page.

Robusto

It was in response to your first citation. I'm surprised that wasn't obvious.

Cerberus

> Bei der am 21. November 2004 abgehaltenen Stichwahl im Rahmen der Präsidentschaftswahlen 2004 stimmten auf der Krim 82 % für Wiktor Janukowytsch, in Sewastopol 89 %. Wiktor Juschtschenko, aus den Wahlen 2004 siegreich hervorgegangener Gegenkandidat, kündigte am 4. Mai 2005 an, das Personal sämtlicher örtlicher Verwaltungsbehörden der Krim auszutauschen. Die Wähler stünden für einen Wechsel des Regimes und seiner Repräsentanten.[8] Von Juni 2006 bis März 2010 war Wiktor Plakida Ministerpräsident der Krim, sein Nachfolger wurde Wassyl Dscharty, der am 17. August 2011 im Amt verstarb.

The Crimeans have always voted very Russian, being mostly Russian.

Robusto

5:00 PM

Crap. I hate when I hit the wrong arrow key by accident in threes.

Cerberus

Happens all the time when I'm tired.

You know what I hate even more?

When the wrong arrow key results in a move that is better than what I had in mind.

Robusto

Haha.

But it's usually the other way around. You couldn't have made a worse move if you tried. And it wrecks the whole board.

Cerberus

Yeah.

You know what I also hate?

192, 24, 24, 3 (bottom row)

Robusto

Yeah.

Cerberus

I accidentally press right because I want something to move to the right in the upper rows, and then my 192 is accidentally moved out of its comfy corner.

Robusto

5:03 PM

Or when you have to move in such a way that dislodges your largest tile from a corner.

Jinx, methinx.

Cerberus

Exactly.

I would normally never have pressed right there, but but rather left.

tchrist

> For now, Putin believes that the risk is worth taking because he sees the West as supine and decadent, more worried about keeping Russian oil and gas exports flowing than about standing up for the idea of a Europe whole and free.

Ok, so we’re on our backs and either decaying or just plain falling.

If we fall, we fail.

G8 in Sochi come June: why bother?

Let the Tzar hold his G1 summit wheresoever he pleases. The West need not fawn in futilely sycophantic obeisance before his high throne.

We’ll just lie here and decay.

Cerberus

> 9675

@tchrist A Europe whole and free? Whoe'er thinks that?

That is a totally skewed perspective.

tchrist

huh?

Cerberus

There never was a "Europe whole and free".

And the Ukrainian government is about as bad as the Russian government...

And the Crimeans really want to be completely independent from Ukraine.

And why does the article focus on Obama? His country is the least involved of anyone in the G8.

Besides, if anyone has a claim on being supine, it's the EU!!

tchrist

5:22 PM

@Cerberus I thought that rather odd.

@Cerberus Which Ukrainian government?

Cerberus

Any Ukrainian government.

tchrist

@Cerberus It isn’t saying that there was. It’s saying that there should be.

Cerberus

Each party is supported by a different gang of oligarchs.

tchrist

Wonder where they got that setup from.

Cerberus

Why does Europe have to be one?

tchrist

5:23 PM

Whole.

Cerberus

And why would Switzerland have to be part of the EU if they don't want to?

tchrist

Free.

No more Warsaw Pact.

Cerberus

There is very little reason to think of Ukraine as free.

I agree that it is generally advisable to push back the Russian sphere of influence as far as possible.

tchrist

All the more reason to think of how it could ever be that.

Cerberus

It makes as much sense as saying there should be a Eurasia whole and free...

tchrist

5:26 PM

So nothing can be whole and free?

Or nothing can be wholly free?

Cerberus

@tchrist The only reason I see to push back against Russia in the Crimea is, as always, just because the Russian government is bad. Not because of some false sympathy for the Ukrainian government.

The best situation in this case would be a wholly independent Crimea. But this is probably not possible.

tchrist

The push-back should be because Russia is being a bully, not because one particularly loves the party whom they’re bullying.

Cerberus

The alternatives are Ukrainian oppression and Russification under a puppet state.

tchrist

Was Kuwait ever the world’s darling?

Cerberus

It was, as always, the darling of certain Western countries who needed the oil.

But it's more complicated with Ukraine.

We need it for its pipes.

tchrist

5:29 PM

So it’s ok for bullies to bully other bullies?

Cerberus

All this talk about whole and free, and about bullies, is I think not so very relevant to what's happening in the Crimea.

We have a choice between two evils here, I am afraid.

tchrist

Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances

Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is an international treaty signed on 5 December 1994 in the Hungarian capital Budapest by Ukraine, the United States of America, Russia, and the United Kingdom concerning the nuclear disarmament of Ukraine and its security relationship with the signatory countries. The terms of the memorandum is seen as broken by Russia's 2014 invasion of Crimea. Content According to the memorandum, Russia, the USA, and the UK confirmed, in recognition of Ukraine becoming party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and in effect abandoning its...

Cerberus

Of course.

Legality in international relations is only relevant if you can easily enforce the rules.

Look. The ethnically Russian east richer.

The Crimea is average.

tchrist

I keep thinking that whoever put the n into ethnic destroyed the word.

Cerberus

It just so happens that sometimes people want to stick with those who share their (perceived) culture.

tchrist

5:36 PM

And France still has no interest in taking back Québec.

Cerberus

I don't know, if Québec requested to become an autonomous part of France, I'm quite sure France's mouth would water.

tchrist

I do not approve of using ethnic as an excuse for unethical behavior.

Cerberus

What is that supposed to mean?

tchrist

Don’t European immigrants who are ethnically Moslem often expect or demand treatment that the West holds to be unethical?

In any event, all this will just further cement the distressing belief that only nations with nuclear weapons are capable of commanding external respect for the sovereignty of their own borders.

Cerberus

@tchrist Treatment? How?

@tchrist Have you tried looking at this from the other side?

tchrist

5:43 PM

Which side would that be?

Cerberus

"The sovereignty of their own borders" is incredibly skewed.

It ignores the history of the Crimea and what those people there want.

p.ccmbg.com/media/…

This might cheer you up.

It's not quite kittens.

tchrist

Why, does it have pictures of kittens?

Cerberus

Des lapins défamés.

tchrist

jinx

Cerberus

Encirclant une fille.

tchrist

5:45 PM

That was really amusing.

Cerberus

My French is probably borked. shrugs

Now is the girl the Crimea and the lapins the Russians?

Or the other way around? Or...

tchrist

J’ai tenté de le voir, mais ils ont dit que je n’avais pas le bitrate necessaire pour faire cela.

They couldn’t even be arsed to translate bitrate.

Cerberus

Pour voir ce vidéo?

C'est étrange.

Then what was "really amusing", if not the video?

> Ukraine ranks fourth in the world in number of certified IT professionals after the United States, India and Russia

tchrist

Our jinx of kittens was what was amusing.

WTF is a “certified IT professional” for the love of Jehobitz?

Cerberus

Ah.

tchrist

5:50 PM

That certified crap is just that.

Cerberus

At least it means they probably have a job that mainly involved computers.

Ukraine. Probably fake...

tchrist

@Cerberus That’s completely different. I wish they’d say that. I rather hate the term “IT” when it means nothing other the computer-related.

Cerberus

Yeah, well, that's the way the world goes round.

By the way, I have read that piece in the Economist.

It is really rather bad.

Almost ignorant.

tchrist

You mean today’s?

Cerberus

And incredibly naïve.

The one you linked me to.

tchrist

5:54 PM

Just so.

Cerberus

It does not even mention the actual situation on the Crimea.

tchrist

I thought it more strange than anything else.

Cerberus

I bet he doesn't know anything about the paeninsulam.

tchrist

Nobody since the Romans has an *ae in that word.

Cerberus

I think it is not very strange, it sounds very naïvely Western.

That is, actual people in Western governments who understand the situation, helped by historians, will have a completely different perspective.

@tchrist How about an -m?

I chose to read about as apud.

tchrist

5:56 PM

Well, in that case. . . .

Cerberus

I do not wish to sound accusatory...

In casu hoc.

tchrist

“Render unto Tzar those things which are Tzar’s. . . .”

Seems to be what you are saying.

Καίσαρος Καίσαρι

I still call dibs on British Columbia.

They’re all clearly ethnically West Coasters. You can tell from their accent. And they just get in the way of connecting the Tongass Rain Forest to the other one in the Olympic Peninsula.

Plus there’s the whole petropipeline issue.

@Cerberus I bet you’re unfamiliar with the vernacular sense of a pud.

Jez

do you say "the Crimea", or "Crimea"?

tchrist

6:11 PM

Who’s you?

Jez

anyone

tchrist

Saying “the Crimea” is historical.

Jez

we say "the Algarve"

tchrist

Yes.

But we no longer say the Ukraine.

Well, or aren’t supposed to.

Jez

yeah but I didn't say Ukraine

tchrist

6:19 PM

As Sumer should be for the Sumerians, perhaps we should let Kimmer be for the Cimmerians of old, the Kimmerioi, Κιμμέριοι, Киммери́йцы, and გმირი. Gosh, it’s all beginning to sound like some Conan the Barbarian romance.

The Wikipedia article sometimes uses “the” for “the Crimea”, and sometimes does not.

Cerberus

@Jez The.

tchrist

> On 18 May 1944, the entire population of the Crimean Tatars was forcibly deported in the "Sürgün" (Crimean Tatar for exile) to Central Asia by Joseph Stalin's Soviet government as a form of collective punishment, on the grounds that they had collaborated with the Nazi occupation forces.

Cerberus

@tchrist If they want to join you, why not let them?

@tchrist I am. With any sense of the word, actually, except as pudding.

Why?

@tchrist That's different.

tchrist

@Cerberus By the 1970’s it had degenerated into simply meaning a jerk, but its origins were fouler.

Blame Joyce.

Cerberus

Why do you mention this word?

tchrist

6:26 PM

2 coarse slang. = pudding (def#5) (def#b). to pull one’s pud: see pull v. (def#20) (def#i).

1939 Joyce Finnegans Wake (1964) 445 - There’s a lot of lecit pleasure coming bangslanging your way, Miss Pinpernelly satin. For your own good, you understand, for the man who lifts his pud to a woman is saving the way for kindness.
1944 Publ. Amer. Dial. Soc. II. 35 - Pud, to pull the (his),..to masturbate... Boys and men. Common.
1972 R. A. Wilson Playboy’s Bk. Forbidden Words 240 - Pud, the penis; perhaps from pudding in pull the pudding.

@Cerberus You mentioned a pud, of course. :)

So the Crimean Peninsula has long been a place of displaced peoples and forced resettlement, not to mention invasions.

Cerberus

Oh Pudin.

tchrist

3 fig. = pudding sb. (def#7) (def#b); spec. an easy college course. Also attrib. or as adj. U.S.

1938 Amer. Speech XIII. 6/2 - Pud,..an easy job.
1963 Amer. Speech XXXVIII. 167 - An easy college course..pud adj.
1967 S. B. Flexner in Wentworth & Flexner Dict. Amer. Slang Suppl. 700/1 - Pud,..an easy course; a ‘snap’... Adj. Easy to pass or make a good grade in, as a course or test.
1977 Amer. Speech 1975 L. 64 - Pud,..soft, easy. ‘Do you know any pud courses?’

Cerberus

> MaxRTucker Maxim Tucker Long queues at #Ukraine army recruitment posts.Sergeant tells volunteers 3 million signed up in 24 hours, eager to fight #Russia in #Crimea

Dubious.

tchrist

More than dubious.

Clear propaganda.

I always thought a pud was a pushover.

So I think I knew it more in the 3rd than in the 2nd sense.

Cerberus

> Oekraïne ontslaat pro-Russische gouverneurs

De Oekraïense interim-regering houdt ondertussen grote schoonmaak in de regionale en provinciale regeringen. De pro-Russische gouverneurs in Donetsk en Dnepropetrovsk zijn ontslagen, meldt Korrespondent.net. In de plaats daarvan zijn benoemd oligarchen Igor Kolomoiski als gouverneur in Dnepropetrovsk en Sergei Taroeta als gouverneur in Donetsk. Kolomoiski is mede-eigenaar van de Privat Group, Taroeta is voorzitter van de Industriele Unie van Donbass. Ook verschillende andere regionale hoofden werden uit hun functie gezet. Al in veertien van de …

Kiev fires pro-Russian governors in the east and appoints a couple of oligarchs (industrial tycoons) in their steads.

tchrist

6:31 PM

Date?

Cerberus

> 16:54

tchrist

This is far from over, then.

Cerberus

It will end in a Russian puppet state in the Crimea, no doubt, which is at any rate indentical to the kind of state the majority on the paeninsula want—for now.

They may come to regret it.

If the Russians shall invade Kiev, I will lay down my Cerberuship of this room and eat it, too.

tchrist

> On 26 June of the same year, the Armenian, Bulgarian, and Greek population was also deported to Central Asia. By the end of summer of 1944, the ethnic cleansing of Crimea was complete. In 1967, the Crimean Tatars were rehabilitated, but they were banned from legally returning to their homeland until the last days of the Soviet Union.

Ethnic cleansing.

Cerberus

Of course. We know all this.

It's common and unremarkable, however sad.

tchrist

6:33 PM

So the reason there are Russians there at all is due to gross injustices in the last century?

You still see no parallels with the Palestinian situation?

Cerberus

@tchrist Noooo.

tchrist

Perhaps Putin considers the dissolution of the Soviet Union to be a theory not a practice.

Cerberus

@tchrist That is absolutely not true.

tchrist

Very well.

Cerberus

@tchrist No, it's very different.

@tchrist That is true.

tchrist

6:38 PM

I’m glad I got at least one right.

Cerberus

Yeah.

Of course we do not want the Russians anywhere.

That is not the question.

FumbleFingers

Hi. Are there any mods here? I think I'm getting out of my comfort zone, and could use some help.

Cerberus

But to portray the situation as some sort of free Crimea under benevolent, democratic Ukrainian rule under threat from a foreign power is wrong: every single word in that infinitival phrase is wrong.

tchrist

@FumbleFingers She does that sometimes.

Cerberus

It is neither benevolent nor democractic, nor Ukrainian, nor foreign.

@FumbleFingers Hi!

tchrist

6:41 PM

And now you’re a dick, no less!

How long have you been a private detective?

FumbleFingers

if I can barge in on your topic, I think Ukraine (east) will be under total Russian control within weeks, if not days. And the rest will probably follow unless we take a stand (which seems unlikely at the moment).

tchrist

I agree on days.

I don’t know what stand would do any good whatsoever.

FumbleFingers

@tchrist I thought I'd actually done some real good "sleuthing" re current usage of "egregious"!

Cerberus

She really needs a time-out.

tchrist

Yeah.

Cerberus

6:44 PM

I wonder why your remark got her so upset, it was nothing special.

tchrist

Dick is not a term of endearment.

Jez

@Cerberus Frankly, a puppet state isn't usually Putin's style. He just likes to annex territory Hitler-style to get full control

tchrist

I call Godwin.

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers I don't think so: Ukraine has a large army and it will fight back. Russia absolutely cannot afford a real war, neither financially nor politically.

FumbleFingers

@Cerberus That's why you'd be a better mod than me or Tom. We're both more likely to rise to the bait.

Cerberus

6:45 PM

@Jez Like which states? I believe South Ossetia is like a puppet state?

Jez

@tchrist yeah, i definitely see some parallels between the machinations of Putin and Hitler. the difference perhaps is that Russia already has plenty of territory, whereas Germany was comparitavely small

FumbleFingers

@Cerberus But much of the army is probably pro-Russian

Jez

@Cerberus Well they basically re-annexed Chechnya when it tried to split

Cerberus

@FumbleFingers I don't think so? Why do you think so?

tchrist

@Cerberus Just flag it and Reg or Kit will probably get to it later today.

FumbleFingers

6:46 PM

@Cerberus I admit I've no real justification. I haven't tried to establish the facts on that one.

Cerberus

@Jez Trying to split is completely different. And look what a headache Chechnya was and still is to Moscow, they really hate that episode. And Ukraine is ten times as large.

tchrist

Gosh, and she keeps on going.

You’re right about the timeout need.

Jez

@Cerberus they really hate it? erm, then why dont they just allow it independence?

Cerberus

@Jez Russia is militarily a lot less powerful than Germany was in 1939.

Jez

@Cerberus really???

certainly not if you include its nukes

Cerberus

6:48 PM

@Jez It's really, really hard for states to let go of territories. Nigh impossible.

Jez

@Cerberus Tony Blair seems to have no problem doing it with Wales and Scotland

Cerberus

@Jez I mean comparably, in the balance of power.

tchrist

@Jez He didn’t. They’re still not their own countries.

Jez

@tchrist he's laid the framework to allow them to secede

tchrist

Nor, perhaps, should they be. At least Wales.

Jez

6:49 PM

that wasn't "difficult" for him or his party

Cerberus

@Jez Even for a democratic state like Britain, it's very hard. They try to block it. For an autocratic, nationalist state, it is a ton harder.

Jez

@Cerberus you should read up on the Scottish parliament and independence. Westminster didn't just not block it, they set the whole thing up.

tchrist

The refrain of “As goes Caledonia, so too goes Catalonia” shall do nothing to gain Spanish support in the War of Scottish Secession.

Cerberus

@Jez It was more like you throw them a bone in the hope that they will not bite off your leg, as I understand it?

Jez

lol what war? Blair setup a peaceful mechanism for them to secede

Cerberus

6:51 PM

Why do you think Ukraine cares so much about the Crimea? They don't even control it, and yet they find it incredibly hard to let go of.

Jez

@Cerberus nonsense. do you really think Scotland would have declared war on the rest of the UK? or should I say, Scottish nationalists?

tchrist

Scotland will always be a part of Britain.

Jez

and even if they had, they would've been seen by the vast majority as the bad ones

Cerberus

If you give them some autonomy, you do so mainly because you hope they will not desire independence.

tchrist

Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper.

Cerberus

6:51 PM

It's a standard rule of history...

Jez

Blair basically gave the nationalists the best possible scenario: the option to secede diplomatically

@Cerberus i don't really see how that works. more autonomy would seem to encourage independence when they see that the world hasn't collapsed

Cerberus

It can indeed encourage it, but that it not the motivation for the mother country to grant it.

And look at Scotland: the majority will vote against independence now, won't they?

Jez

i dunno. i think they should but then i think i wouldn't have given them a parliament. that decision leads to many Scots asking the reasonable question, "if Scotland has some autonomy why not go the full hog?"

Cerberus

Had they not been given a parliament, they might have become a second Northern Ireland.

Or a second Ireland!!

Jez

they're right. they shouldn't even have some autonomy.

tchrist

6:54 PM

Perhaps so, now that they’ve had the full ramifications pounded into them.

@Cerberus 3rd

Cerberus

Had England given more autonomy to Ireland, perhaps they might have kept it.

Had Holland given more autonomy to Belgium, same story.

tchrist

Flanders.

Cerberus

No, Belgium.

@tchrist What was the 2nd?

tchrist

Why would you want the Walloons?

Cerberus

Because we were given them.

tchrist

6:55 PM

Irish Republic, Northern Ireland, Scotia.

@Cerberus By whom?

Cerberus

And countries always want more territory.

@tchrist By the Congress of Vienna.

1815.

tchrist

@Cerberus Is that why you keep dredging and diking the North Sea?

Cerberus

After Napoleon, the big countries decided to redraw some borders in Europe, mainly in order to create some strong buffers around France.

@tchrist Well, we only do so inside the dune line, but yes.

Mitch

@Cerberus like the slovaks?

Best split evar

Cerberus

I don't think they were given any autonomy?

They split off very soon after the fall of the Wall?

tchrist

6:57 PM

@Mitch Wrong. Banana.

Cerberus

It is indeed shaped a bit like a banana.

Glen The Udderboat

@Cerberus Can a country "ditch" part of it (even if it contains citizens)?

Cerberus

It can in theory, but it never will.

Mitch

@Cerberus I'm slow...are you saying that Crimea should be part of Russia?

Cerberus

No.

Glen The Udderboat

6:58 PM

@Cerberus Even if it is a burden to the rest of the country?

Jez

@Cerberus that's an interesting one. I think Ireland managed to secede because the Brits were somewhat lazy in crushing the rebellion, and also the timing of the First World War helped

Mitch

@tchrist ha ha! I really though 'WTH' at first..you know because I've never heard of any country called banana that broke into separate non-warring states.

Cerberus

@Mitch I'm saying the "choice" is between two evils, probably, and the situation as described in certain media is rather skewed and naïve.

Jez

in the case of Scotland, it wouldn't really become a second Ireland IF Blair hadn't granted a load of autonomy. England has land access to Scotland, and there is fuck all appetite in Scotland for some armed uprising

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