Discussion about Islam's view of Judaism and assorted extended discussions - 2013-03-04

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12:43 PM

@IsaacMoses this time I was not kicked out of the room , I choose to leave because of a futile argument

@IsaacMoses you should verify before putting false allegations , I have a timer block on my laptop and i wont be able to spend more time here.

3

A: Non-belief in Torah's divinity - Wickedness or Ignorance?

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at here, but here's Rambam, Laws of Teshuva Chapter 3: ג,יד [ו] ואלו שאין להן חלק לעולם הבא, אלא נכרתין ואובדין, ונידונין על גודל רשעם וחטאתם, לעולם ולעולמי עולמים: המינים, והאפיקורוסים, והכופרים בתורה, ... ג,יז שלושה הן הכופרים בתורה: ה...

You see the Rambam does accuse both muslims and christians as torah deniers

Anyways in Islam this issue itself is considered controversial but early islamic scholarship was of the view that torah is NOT corrupt as it was revealed. And the later scholarship deemed the torah all together to be corrupt because the jews did not consider only torah but the modern torah is practically this equation "Torah=Torah+Talmud+Rabbinic interpretations" so if one additive in RHS is corrupt the LHS Also becomes corrupt.@DhoweedYaAgov — Ali 52 mins ago

-1

Q: Can Rabbis frame Laws in addition to what Torah has to offer?

While tagging a question here i came across this tag "derabanan" which was defined as "Laws instituted by the Rabbis". So is it possible for Rabbis to frame laws? I was of the view that only God can frame laws? Are there any examples of Rabbis framing a Law contradicting the literal meaning of ...

3 hours later…

4:16 PM

@ali rambam said christians n muslims believe that there are new laws in a new book and the old laws are abolished. that means you are an apikorus.

Al Ummat مجاهد

4:31 PM

← 47 messages moved from V'dibarta Bam

← 6 messages moved from V'dibarta Bam

5:36 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov can you quote where he said that?

You quoted it already

one who claims that the Creator dropped His Word in favor of a different one, and this Torah is obsolete, though it was originally G-d-given -- such as the Christians and Muslims

You quoting things yet you don't know what you are quoting

Even if you hold that the torah is not changed by the Talmud is wrong than you are an apikorus just like the Sadducees and boethiuses

@DhoweedYaAgov So we are not gentiles?

What?

Where did I say gentile

Do you know what gentile means?

An apikorus can be applied to both Jews and goyim

@DhoweedYaAgov I asked that question already and this itself is controversial

!

What question?

What is controversial ?

5:42 PM

Who is Gentile?

MOrmons consider jews to be gentiles

Do you know what the term gentile means? ....

even among Jews it is not that easy

No it's easy your making it hard

Ok so tell me what is "gentile" according to the torah

There is no gentile in the torah

5:44 PM

I know gentile is an english word

i am talking about the concept

There are many words in the torah and throughout the tanach which mean non jew

Or can be referred to non Jews

@DhoweedYaAgov again there is no word "Jew" IN TORAH

all this has been discussed already

Yes there is

Judah

so are you a Judah?

The word jew representing the babes yisroayls life style aka religion is a Enid's word

English

Jews never refer to themselves as Jews
They refer to themselves as banei yisroayl

The term jew comes from Judah

So the question arises are we following Judah? Are other 11 tribes no jewish?

5:49 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov !

@AlUmmatمجاهد someone help me hre

here

But we see mordechai in Megillah Esther refered to as a yahudi but he is not from the tribe of Yahudo

Why call him a yahudi?

Because it has nothing to do with tribes

@DhoweedYaAgov are you sincere?

Bout what?

@DhoweedYaAgov No need to explain, i have patiently explained all these things in scores of comments and chats to the extent your self asked "Are we muslim?"

anyways you can continue

What? Don't quote me out of context and twist my words

5:54 PM

@goldPseudo assalamalaikum

I said according to your definition of Muslim Jews are Muslim but according to Islamabad definition of Muslim we are not muslims

No

Islam

Al Ummat مجاهد

I don't think there is such a think as Muslim Jews

The Jews that followed Musa, were Muslims, they were believers

From a jewish perspective we are still Muslim

From a person believing in islam we are no longer Muslim

And claim they are Muslim

Another name for people who follow islam are Mohammedans

5:58 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov the question is not whther you are muslim or not the question is whther Muslims are gentiles are not

...

You are using Muslim to describe the followers f islam

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DhoweedYaAgov no that is not a name

When really Jews are muslims and Christians are muslims too according to you before Mohammed came into place

I know it's not a name it's an a attribute to what a person is

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DhoweedYaAgov those who followed musa, and Issa were Muslims

There can be jewish muslims and non jewish muslims both who submit to Hashem

According to jewish religion

6:00 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov No this discussion is not about who is muslim , BUT WHY muslims are not gentiles?

Al Ummat مجاهد

what are gentiles?

according to judaism?

@AlUmmatمجاهد I dont know why this question is avoided?

one of them said . gentile is anyone outside the bani israel is a gentile , this is a popular opinion across all sites?

and its very easily possible for large chunks of Muslims to be descendents of bni israel and DNA tests have showed that

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DhoweedYaAgov what is a gentile according to judaism, is it the definition Ali gave? I know that is similar to the christian belief about what gentile is, what is i according to judaism?

another condition is the matrinial descent from bani israel

even this is can be easily proved

Al Ummat مجاهد

I see

6:06 PM

for certain muslims and mostly all of them in palestines

and afghanistan

at worst muslims can be apicorus(heretic) yet non gentile

@Ali It's a technical definition. You just don't like the definition spelled out over and over and over to you.

@Ali WITHIN THE LAWS OF JUDAISM, a person whose mother's mother's mother's mother's mother's.....mother is not Jewish, is deemed a gentile. One person along that chain needs to have converted. If that did not happen, then the person at the end of the chain is not Jewish. End of discussion.

@Ali It has absolutely NOTHING to do with a person's beliefs. ZERO.

I agree

sorry i lost connection

ok let me finish my post

Al Ummat مجاهد

@SethJ so were Adam and Eve Jews according to Judaism?

user image

6:11 PM

@SethJ But a jew converted to Islam technically remains a Jew

yes

remains a jew

not gentile

no

a jew will always be a jew even if he converts to 1000 dif relgious

religions*

anyway look at that link i posted

why was mordechai considered a yahudi if he was not from the tribe of yahudoh?

And Prophet Abraham pbuh was not a Halachic Jew either

non jew before giving the torah was a halachic jew

6:13 PM

Neither was Moses

@AlUmmatمجاهد No. We've had a couple questions related to that on the site...

yes Mosha Rabbeinu was a halachic jew for he recieved the Torah

@Ali Right. Has nothing to do with belief.

All Jews who recieved the Torah on Har Sinai are halachic jews

3

A: When did Avraham Avinu become Jewish

Only after Sinai could a person be considered a Halachik, or legal "Jew". From Sinai and onward if your mother is Halachikly Jewish, then you are Jewish. Another way to become a Halachik Jew after Sinai is through a legal process of conversion. Since Avraham did not live during or after Sina...

6:15 PM

Avarohom Avinu was between a jew and a banai NoahH

yes but he was still a jew more than a banei noahH because he practices more than needed for his time

he went above the laws required of him

and those things he did were laws from the 613 laws of the torah, so he was a non jew doing jewish laws

anyway why was mordechai considered a yahudi if he was not from the shevet yahudoh? because he was aboloshing idolatry and praising HaShem

Both of them were not jewish beta.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/2014920/jewish/…

@DhoweedYaAgov ?

the word hod means praise and the other letters are the letters of HaShems name

unpronounceable name

@ali who is both of them? Avarohom Ovinu and NoahH?

oi52.tinypic.com/2lneskw.jpg check this link

@DhoweedYaAgov Prophet Abraham and Prophet Moses

Mosha Rabbeinu was a halachic jew for he was the one who recieved the Torah

@DhoweedYaAgov But did not have a matrineal descent fom Judea hence was not a halachic jew

6:20 PM

what?

what does the land of judea have anything to do with him being jewish

@DhoweedYaAgov because the term Jewish is derived from "Land of JUDEA"

@ali you need to stop playing sementics games and going in circles. if you want to learn first come prepared to class by knowing what the words mean in each of their contexts, if you dont want to learn and just want to cause trouble and act innocent by claiming you are coming to learn, yet are obviously pushing away what is trying to be thought to you, then please take your leave

so jews living before the land of judea was established was not jewish?

do you know when the land of judea was established?

@DhoweedYaAgov please dont blame me it is this "Halachic Jew" which creates this problems

@ali please go learn something before coming to claim things

@ali no your lack of knowledge and blunt full ignorance is whats causing problems

arrogance as well

you don't know what a halachic jew is or even what a jew is. so who are you to say something

The Jews ( ISO 259-3 Israeli pronunciation ), also known as the Jewish people, are a nation and an ethnoreligious group, originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation. Converts to Judaism, whose status as Jews within the Jewish ethnos is equal to those born into it, have been absorbed into the Jewish people throughout the millennia. In Jewish tradition, Jewish ancestry is traced to the Biblical patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in ...

6:25 PM

you dont even know what a muslims is without keeping it in the context of islam

The English word Jew continues Middle English Gyw, Iewe, a loan from Old French giu, earlier juieu, ultimately from Latin Iudaeum. The Latin Iudaeus simply means Judaean, "from the land of Judaea".[20] The Latin term itself, like the corresponding Greek Ἰουδαῖος, is a loan from Aramaic Y'hūdāi, corresponding to Hebrew: יְהוּדִי, Yehudi (sg.); יְהוּדִים, Yehudim (pl.), in origin the term for a member of the tribe of Judah or the people of the kingdom of Judah.

i dont need wiki to tell me what a jew is

So how this word Jew came about?

we are not talking about the word jew... we are talking about the concept of jew. because the word jew is not a real word

like i have stated i am not interested in playing games with you anymore. go learn something and then come back. if you dont want to learn then good bye

im done talking with you for now

i am muslim and i told you that many times

@DhoweedYaAgov Exactly! So if it is not a real word then use the correct word :'Muslim' , and know what you are indeed very intelligent as you yourself had concluded this

6:30 PM

but according to the definition given by the religino of islam

i am not muslim

why my mments are getting deleted

@AlUmmatمجاهد

therefore i dont want to associate myself with the word muslim given by the mohammadeans

Al Ummat مجاهد

@Ali I was trying to stop you guys from going around the circle again, but it doesn't matter now

so i use jewish to refer to me which i really mean muslim

I just can experience this verse thanks to you :
Abraham was not a Jew, nor a Christian; but he was one pure of faith and from those who submitted to God with a sound heart. He was not one of the polytheists.

[Quran Aali-Imran 3:67]

6:33 PM

right

@Ali Receiving the Torah was tantamount to conversion. Everyone "converted". They all exclaimed "Na'aseh VeNishma'" and underwent conversion processes applicable to them.

he was a banei NoahH following the 7 noahide laws and doing more

which is a step closer to judaism

@DhoweedYaAgov Moses?

moses also was following the laws of NaohH until he got the torah

the 7 laws of noah was 7 out of 10 laws of the 10 commandments

@DhoweedYaAgov Again this is not the question of whether you are a Muslim or not

6:35 PM

im not questioning if i am because i know i am

But I am asking you again How Are Muslims Gentile?

......

you are going in circles

im done

ok

One needs to break this circle

you are obviously not breakign it

and use a word which means the real concept

Ya it can be broken

6:37 PM

sure it can

but you are not breaking it

by not using the word Jewish to refer to oneselves

Al Ummat مجاهد

how about we change the subject

according to jews we are muslims

Use the real word :Muslim

according to jews mohammadeans are muslims

6:38 PM

then please dont call yourself Jew

according to mohammadeans jews are not muslims

got it? good

coz its proven here that use of word "JEW " creates cycles

ani yahudi

no it proves that your lack of knowledge no the subject causes cycles

yahudi is a higher level than muslim

because pagans according to themselves are also muslim

they submit to their gods

@DhoweedYaAgov So you are a yahudi and abraham was not a yahudi , it means You are higher then Abraham!

but a yahud is someone who praises Yod Hei Wow Hei

and only a yahudi is that

no Avarohom was an ivri

6:40 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov Abraham never praised Hashem?

@DhoweedYaAgov O another name?!!

more circles

Torah says Avarohom Ovinu did not know Yod Hei Wow Hei he only knew Ayl-Shaddai

@Ali LOL! You're complaining about circles????

@SethJ I ask @DhoweedYaAgov the same question

@Ali Why do you persist in ignoring the answers provided to you?

yea i need to go to the bank to pay some bills, then im going to go learn

@ali stop wasting your and my time

6:43 PM

@SethJ @SethJ I ask @DhoweedYaAgov the same question

sigh

@SethJ not just complaining but i practically demonstrated it

I'm done.

Ok

@AlUmmatمجاهد assalaamalikum

Fi Amanallah May Allah guide us All to the straight path of Moses and Abraham

Al Ummat مجاهد

@Ali Wa Alaikum salam

6:59 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov Technically speaking, Muslims consider any descendant of Abraham to be Muslim.

However, we do not consider ourselves Muslims. We consider ourselves Jews.

technically speaking what you call muslims are not muslims they are mohammadeans

Also, Jew comes from the word Yehudi (יהודי) in Hebrew, which means of the "יהודה" clan

they use the term muslims because they think they are the new muslims we are are no longer muslims

gemorah asks why morechai is a called a yahudi if he is not from shevet yahudoh

gemoroh answers because he was against avodoh zoroh

We used to be called "Beney Israeli" or "Sons of Israel", where "Israel" refers to Yaakov, Abraham's grandson.

@DhoweedYaAgov I'm speaking of technicalities here.

It's true that not all Jews are from the Yahuda clan.

right...

7:01 PM

But the word itself comes from Yahuda.

no it doesnt

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DhoweedYaAgov we are not mohammadeans

there is no such word

sure there is

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DhoweedYaAgov yeah, you and many others made it up

Mohammedan (also spelled Muhammadan, Mahommedan, Mahomedan or Mahometan) is an obsolete term for a follower of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. It is used as both a noun and an adjective, meaning belonging or relating to, either Muhammad or the religion, doctrines, institutions and practices that he established. The word was formerly common in usage, but the terms Muslim and Islamic are more common today. Etymology The OED cites 1663 as the first recorded usage of the English term, along with the older term Mahometan that dates back to at least 1529. The English term is derived from New Lati...

Al Ummat مجاهد

7:10 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov it is not a proper name

jewish is also not a proper name because we dont follow judah

we follow HaSHem

judah and his 11 brothers all followed the same religion, therefore jews from other tribes to be called people from the tribe of judoh is pretty dumb isnt it?

you dont like being called mohammadean dont call us judeans

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DhoweedYaAgov I never called you such, so don't call us such

you did

@DhoweedYaAgov We would love to call you Muslims

!

you call us jews

Al Ummat مجاهد

7:13 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov when?

@DhoweedYaAgov what do you want to be called then, Yahudi?

Muslims?

thats the thing, to differentiate between our religion's definition of muslim and your religions definiation of muslim, we must call it 2 different names

@Ali you're crossing a line.

@MonicaCellio He crossed it long ago and many times in the other room.

@MonicaCellio But @DhoweedYaAgov has claimed to be muslim many times

in arabic muslim means submittor to HaShem, therefore without any religious background to the word, everyone who bows down to a god is a muslim, pagan or monotheist

7:16 PM

I think you're getting overattached over technialities.

@Ali I think we get your point. You love trolling over technicalities. Religion is something I define as a red limit. Stop with your nonsense, because you obviously annoy the others. Otherwise, I will suspend you from chat. Plain and simple.

@Ali, this semantic twisting you're doing has been annoying for a while, but people are allowed to be annoying. Coming here to promote your religion has never been ok. Stop it.

@Ali YOU have tried to claim that you are all JEWS. He was making a point about how ludicrous the entire argument was.

@DhoweedYaAgov Sounds like the etymological fallacy to me.

mhmm

(DISCLAIMER: I'm jumping in in the middle of this conversation, with insufficient context to be making judgements.)

7:18 PM

but in hebrew a goy who is a "muslim" is called a banei NoahH

@TRiG That was his point. Go to the other room and review Ali's argument.

and a jew who is a "muslim" is a yahudi

@DhoweedYaAgov OK, now your turn to stop.

@SethJ I think most of Ali's argument from the other room has actually been moved here since.

Those of us who get your point, get it. Those who don't can review the chat.

7:19 PM

im done, ive been trying to leave but im bad at this :(

yesSer horo is too strong

@SethJ we're in the other room. Unless there's a third.

:(

@MonicaCellio Oh, my bad.

@MonicaCellio My mouse missed.

@SethJ np

@MonicaCellio This is not a way to promote religion, I am NOT DOING it. I am just confused and perplexed and I am asking what is obvious to me. This is NOT AT ALL ISLAMIC PROSYLETYZATION, but skepticism and arguments.

@Ali I think I've given you an answer, have I not?

7:22 PM

Ok. @Ali, you've been warned by multiple moderators. @DhoweedYaAgov, you're not exactly helping. I think everybody should take a break for a while. Respectful conversation for the purpose of learning is welcome, but I haven't seen a lot of that in the transcripts I've skimmed.

@Ali Nobody invited you here to argue, and we're tired of it.

9 mins ago, by Ali

@DhoweedYaAgov We would love to call you Muslims

@MonicaCellio this was addressed to @DhoweedYaAgov as he seems to like this term for himself

and has himself used it several times

i like the term yahudi in hebrew

@DhoweedYaAgov What I hate is the ridiculous romanization they gave Hebrew words

Shmos, the hell?

7:25 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov even if in the entire transcript you replace Jew with "Yahoodi" does anything change?

Everybody needs to chill for a while. I am going to freeze this room for a while. I will discuss the fate of this room with the other mods. Meanwhile, do not bring this argument/discussion/whatever-you-want-to-call it back to V'dibarta Bam. I will not hesitate to kick people out of chat.

2

Monica Cellio has frozen this room.

Thank you.

@MadaraUchiha oh, mods can still post? Ok, next time I'll know to do that in the other order.

Al Ummat مجاهد

@MonicaCellio :)

7:26 PM

@MonicaCellio Seems like it, yeah

@MadaraUchiha yes, proof by demonstration. Thanks for your help here.

@MonicaCellio Sure thing, a user in my chat noticed a flag from this room

@MadaraUchiha I suspected there must have been one for you to show up. I didn't see it myself.

=)

Al Ummat مجاهد

I recall a flag here from a few hours ago

but not recently

7:31 PM

I believe the flag happened a bit over an hour ago

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