English Language Learners - 2014-09-22 (page 1 of 2)

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12:11 AM

Hello!

10 hours later…

10:32 AM

You will commonly hear players or managers on British TV using the present perfect to comment on the football (soccer) match that has just finished. This usage is so common that it has been designated the "footballer's perfect". Here is a link to an extract from Walker's The Linguistics of Football that discusses this phenomenon. — Shoe 16 hours ago

"Footballer's perfect"!

Sounds like their mind is still in the game.

Perhaps this is why a lot of non-native speakers were taught to use the present perfect instead of the simple past for just-happened events (or misunderstood the usage that way anyway).

@IceBoy I believe so.

Hello!

Hi @DamkerngT.

4 hours later…

2:52 PM

0

Q: "Greater part" versus "Best part" describing duration?

"The delegations from Beauxbatons and Durmstrang will be arriving in October and remaining with us for the greater part of this year. I know that you will all extend every courtesy to our foreign guests while they are with us, and will give your whole-hearted support to the Hogwarts champion w...

Interesting! I think it depends.

Oh, hello, @snailboat

I think I'm gonna name my snail, Tom.

Anonymous

3:13 PM

@DamkerngT. Oh!! You have a snail??

Remember that I told you about a snail I found outside my house?

I think he really likes that spot. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. You may want to look up "Perfect of Hot News" or "Perfect of Recent Past", both of which I've capitalized as though they're movie titles

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yay! :-)

Anonymous

Snails are very good at finding spots they like.

Anonymous

You can take them almost a mile away, and they'll still stand a good chance of finding their way back to the spot they think of as home

Anonymous

3:16 PM

I've noticed it varies a little from snail to snail. Dee was very insistent on her location. If you ever moved her, she always snailed right back to where she was before.

Anonymous

Snaily was content to be wherever :-)

I don't know how long he's gonna stay around there, but I think he's been there about a week already!

Anonymous

I think he figured it was all the same as long as he got fed.

First contact: Damkerng T. offered a leaf to Tom. Tom held back and went inside his shell!

Anonymous

Aw!

Anonymous

3:18 PM

I try to put food right in front of them and let them discover it. They can smell the food

What food would a snail like? Damped vegetables?

Anonymous

If you actually put them on top of something, they'll almost always try to eat it, although if they don't like it or they're not hungry they might wander off :-)

Anonymous

What species of snail is it?

Something that looks really like the guy in Turbo!

So he is unlike all the rest of snails in my garden.

Anonymous

Hehe! Well, it might be difficult to identify the snail based on that description . . . :-)

Anonymous

3:20 PM

How big is the snail?

A small coin!

Anonymous

Oh!

Anonymous

Do you have a picture?

Maybe I should try taking his photo. See if he's still there...

Anonymous

Unfortunately there isn't a single food that all land snails will eat, so I can't really tell you about his diet without knowing his species . . .

Anonymous

3:22 PM

But most land snails like lettuce :-)

Anonymous

Or a slice of fresh fruit like cucumber or pear or banana

Anonymous

Some land snails are carnivorous.

Anonymous

So they won't eat any of those things.

Anonymous

You could get just about any snail to eat cuttlebone or another source of calcium, but if they're living in the wild they probably get their calcium from eating soil

He's hiding!

Maybe because of the first contact. :-)

Anonymous

3:24 PM

Snails are good at hiding :-)

Anonymous

They like to hide under things, and they can use their foot to dig little tunnels.

I found him hiding on my trash bag!

Anonymous

Oh!

I took a really bad picture of him. Going to upload it...

user image

I'm pretty sure that he was hiding very well!

Anonymous

Oh my, that is a dark picture! Let's see

Anonymous

3:32 PM

The shell is relatively flat looking

Anonymous

Cute though :-)

Anonymous

I can't identify the snail but you can always try giving him a lettuce leaf

Anonymous

My snails prefer fresh vegetables

Anonymous

But some snails prefer slightly decomposed food

nods -- I found a picture that I think looks really like him.

user image

Anonymous

3:33 PM

Oh, that's a disc snail!

Anonymous

Let's see

Or this!

user image

Anonymous

That's a glass snail!

Tom doesn't look glassy, but he is surely flat.

Anonymous

I'm sure you can see in that picture why it's called a glass snail

3:35 PM

nods

Anonymous

Although all snail shells start out translucent

Anonymous

Most become opaque as they build the inner layers

I'll try taking more pictures in daylight when he is out.

I think he looks sort of brown-gray.

Anonymous

There are a bunch of different disc snails

Anonymous

user image

3:37 PM

Too shiny. :)

Anonymous

Which way does the shell coil?

Anonymous

This is a dextral shell:

Anonymous

user image

Anonymous

Most snails are dextral.

Oh, I can't recall that!

Anonymous

3:41 PM

A few species are sinistral.

I went out to get a piece of cabbage and looked for him, but he was gone!

Anonymous

Oh!

This time I couldn't find him.

Anonymous

user image

I don't know snails can be fast.

Anonymous

3:42 PM

Anonymous

They're deceptively fast.

Anonymous

They're so slow that you feel like they should be in the exact same spot, even if you leave for a bit and come back.

Anonymous

But then they surprise you by being somewhere else . . . :-)

I'm sure, well I hope, that I will find him again tomorrow. :-)

Anonymous

Those two are snails that live in Thailand

Anonymous

3:44 PM

I don't know if the shells are flat enough

Anonymous

But they're relatively flat compared to other snails

I think he sort of looks like a mix of the two, a bit flatter and smaller.

Maybe he is still young.

Anonymous

If you wanted to identify him . . .

Anonymous

You should check for a lip at the opening of the shell

Anonymous

user image

3:45 PM

And how can I tell his age by looking at his lip?

Anonymous

See how the shell curves outward at the opening?

Anonymous

That tells you that the snail is fully grown.

Thanks for a nice illus!

Ahh

Anonymous

For most snails, if they don't have a lip, they're still young and growing.

Anonymous

user image

3:47 PM

I guess he has no lip.

Anonymous

See, the shell doesn't curve outward at the opening on Bean's shell in that picture

Anonymous

Some snails have distinctive lips.

Anonymous

If you can take a better picture I can try to help! :-)

Anonymous

Another thing you could do is take a picture of the opening of the shell from underneath, while the snail is in their shell

Anonymous

But if you pick up the snail be careful not to hurt them!

3:48 PM

I'll try again tomorrow. :)

Anonymous

Younger snails especially can have very delicate shells because they haven't reinforced them with calcium yet

Oh! nods

Anonymous

I suppose it would be easiest to take a good picture in daylight

Anonymous

But of course snails hide when it's light out!

I found him in the evening most of the times.

It's one thing I like about this house. There are several animals passing by!

Some birds built their nests around my house sometimes.

Though I don't like bees much!

Anonymous

3:52 PM

Yay! And boo! But yay!

Anonymous

What do you suppose is wrong with *extremely slower?

Anonymous

People say extremely slow but (usually) not *extremely slower

Anonymous

A friend of mine (who is also a native speaker) just said extremely slower, than made fun of herself for saying it

I think it's difficult to imagine "extremely slower".

Hmm... But we say "much slower". Doesn't that mean that "slower" is somewhat gradable?

Anonymous

Because extremely slow means, well, "at one extreme of the speed spectrum"? Whereas "slowerness" isn't a spectrum with ends? :-)

Anonymous

4:03 PM

Slower is a morphological comparative (versus the periphrastic comparative more slow)

Anonymous

Much more slow

Anonymous

Lessee.

Anonymous

This gradability stuff isn't entirely intuitive to me.

Anonymous

Much more typical, extremely more typical

Anonymous

Extremely doesn't appear to work that way

Anonymous

4:07 PM

Very slower is silly, too :-)

Anonymous

I'm going to go look up degree adverbs

I also notice a similar oddity in Thai. News and the web make me think it's relatively new, but it might always exist. People something say something like (Lit. from Thai) "decrease his weight [up]" when it should be "decrease his weight [down]".

Some people seem to avoid those and say something else, like, "his weight has been decreased more (or further)". (Thai lit.)

Anonymous

Oh, I've read about that sort of thing in English, but unfortunately I can't seem to recall any examples at the moment

Very slower sounds funny to me, too!

However, much slower and a little slower somehow sound okay.

Anonymous

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=11326

Anonymous

4:12 PM

@DamkerngT. So we can probably conclude that much and a little are different from very.

Quite reasonable!

Hey, I said "People something say something"!

Very funny!

Anonymous

I didn't notice! :-)

Anonymous

This is why proofreading is hard.

Anonymous

Of course, you can make it a lot easier if you read stuff aloud all the time.

Anonymous

But that's a lot slower.

4:16 PM

"positive-negative backflip"--Nice term!

Hi all

Anonymous

I notice CGEL uses the terms analytic and inflectional rather than periphrastic and morphological or synthetic.

Anonymous

@IceGirl Hello! Welcome back to ELL chat!

I have a question. Can I ask?

Hi

4:18 PM

@snailboat Thanks

It's typical to ask away.

I need national colouring idiom

How can I find?

Anonymous

National colouring?

Anonymous

What does that mean?

I don't know about National Coloring.

4:20 PM

yeah

Anonymous

Like, the official colours for a nation?

Anonymous

National colours

National colours are frequently part of a country's set of national symbols. Many states and nations have formally adopted a set of colours as their official "national colours" while others have de facto national colours that have become well-known through popular use. National colours often appear on a variety of different media, from the nation's flag to the colours used in sports. == Lists == == See also == Tricolour List of international auto racing colours Lists of national symbols == References... ==

Or painting some nation with some color?

no

e.g. To carry coal to Newcastle

Did you hear that idiom?

Nope

Anonymous

4:21 PM

I'm unfamiliar with it

Anonymous

Does it have something to do with colours?

no

I'm sure that people from Newcastle would know better.

OK

user image

4:25 PM

:)

National colouring makes me think of something like that.

Emily wins national colouring competition

Anonymous

@IceGirl Sorry, I'm afraid I still don't understand the question so I've been unable to help

I think I can guess what Ice Girl wants now, but I don't share the same interest. Basically, I think she wants a list of idioms that are colored by (spiced up with) some well-known places, such as a country, a town, a city, and so on.

I'm guessing something like, "When in Rome, ..."

Anonymous

That is an interesting type of phrase to collect.

Anonymous

user image

4:39 PM

Is that even real?

Anonymous

Yes

I haven't seen a green snail before!

So beautiful!

Anonymous

There are several species of green snails but they're in the minority

Anonymous

user image

Oh, this one has a perfect shell for hiding!

Anonymous

4:42 PM

user image

Anonymous

That snail evolved from marine snails separately

This guy somehow looks familiar!

Anonymous

And so it has more marine snail-like traits

Anonymous

You can see the eyes at the base of the upper tentacles instead of at the tips, for example

Anonymous

That's much more typical of snails you find in water than on land

4:42 PM

Oh, marine, as in the ocean?

Anonymous

Yes

Anonymous

Land snails all evolved from marine snails millions of years ago

Anonymous

But they made the leap more than once!

Anonymous

Land slugs evolved from land snails (they lost their shells)

This marine snail has the lip too!

Anonymous

4:43 PM

The snail above is actually a land snail, though it's similar to marine snails in many ways

Anonymous

Most marine snails have lips on their shells, too

Anonymous

Oh, this is a mythical instrument in our literature. :)

Anonymous

For many marine snails, the lip is extremely obvious! It curves outward and continues quite far from the path you'd otherwise expect

Anonymous

Triton's Trumpet

Anonymous

4:45 PM

Triton's trumpet

Triton's trumpet or the giant triton, Charonia tritonis, is a species of very large sea snail, a marine gastropod mollusc in the family Ranellidae, the tritons. == Distribution == This species is found throughout the Indo-Pacific Oceans, Red Sea included. == Human use == The shell is well known as a decorative object, and is sometimes modified for use as a trumpet (such as the Japanese horagai). C. tritonis is one of the few animals to feed on the crown-of-thorns starfish, Acanthaster planci. Occasional plagues of this large and destructive starfish have killed extensive areas of coral on the...

Anonymous

Is a mythical instrument.

Oh, in some other cultures too!?

@snailboat A-ha! I didn't know that all of that part is a lip!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. The lip is much smaller in most land snails :-)

Anonymous

Anonymous

It can be rather small in sea snails, too

4:47 PM

Now it's getting extraordinary!

Anonymous

And some snails don't grow lips

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Those are Murex

Anonymous

Murex is a genus of medium to large sized predatory tropical sea snails. These are carnivorous marine gastropod molluscs in the family Muricidae, commonly called "murexes" or "rock snails". The common name murex is still used for a large number of species in the family Muricidae which were originally given the Latin generic name Murex in the past, but have more recently been regrouped into different newer genera. The word murex was used by Aristotle in reference to these kinds of snails, thus making it one of the oldest classical seashell names still in use by the scientific community. ==...

Hmm... Maybe if mollusks had conquered the world, they could've developed backbones too!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, this is interesting!

Anonymous

4:49 PM

The World Register of Marine Species is abbreviated to WoRMS!

Anonymous

Not WRoMS!

Eh?! Interesting indeed!

Anonymous

marinespecies.org/index.php

The rule is... there is no rules!

Anonymous

Hah

Anonymous

4:50 PM

"We wanted it to spell 'worms'!"

> Who is using WoRMS?

"Obviously, a lot of people." :-)

Oh, saying "worms" reminds me of that clip I was listening to.

I'm rather sure that he said "wormed her way".

(even though both transcripts below that page said otherwise)

Anonymous

I don't see either transcription

Anonymous

But I do hear wormed

Eh? Hmm... I think you might need to click on the ". . . More" button (near the "Share" button).

I sometimes use them to crosscheck my transcription. Though I found that they're not very reliable.

Oh, crosscheck doesn't need a hyphen.

Anonymous

It doesn't show up for me

Anonymous

4:58 PM

I mean, I've got the ". . . More" button

Ahh

Anonymous

Oh

Anonymous

It has a drop-down menu!

Anonymous

Um.

Anonymous

Wow, that's a terrible transcription :-)

4:59 PM

LOL

That's why I told you that. :)

Anonymous

It seems better than YouTube's automatic transcriptions, though.

I think the automatic transcription does a little better.

Anonymous

Yeah?

Anonymous

They must have gotten a lot better, then

Indeed.

Anonymous

5:00 PM

When they first came out with that feature, it was rare for them to get anything right

Or it might be because the way he read it that makes it easier for the recognizer.

Anonymous

We close → because

Anonymous

Off to a good start!

Anonymous

1945's → 1945 to

I mean, it's still far from perfect, but it's much more tolerable than a few years back.

Anonymous

5:02 PM

The Library of America's → the library america's

Anonymous

Three mistakes in the first two lines

Anonymous

That is astonishingly better than it used to be!

I guess the Glass might help speed up the development somewhat.

Anonymous

Anonymous

The captions here have barely one error per sentence!

5:06 PM

Wow, it can evade a few places that I expected it to make a mistake there.

However, it makes some mistakes where I didn't expect!

It's difficult to predict where it will go wrong!

Oh, I typed invade when I wanted to say evade.

Oh, thank you very much!

Anonymous

There are a couple things I can point out

curious

Anonymous

"places that I expected it to make a mistake there" would normally be "places where I expected it to make a mistake"

nods True!

Umm... What are the other ones? -- expecting a few more

Anonymous

Ah, well, I'm not quite sure about your use of evade

Anonymous

5:14 PM

I understand it, but it doesn't seem quite natural

Anonymous

I was trying to think of how to rephrase it

Anonymous

But I stopped because I wasn't sure what to suggest

Ahh... I see. If I revised it myself, I might reword it to avoid.

Hmm... there might be a better word for that.

Anonymous

I guess I feel like . . . with the place metaphor, they are going to the places you expected them to make mistakes, they just didn't make the mistakes. They didn't avoid going to those places. So the metaphor feels a little off.

Anonymous

"They managed to avoid making some mistakes I thought they'd make!"

Anonymous

5:17 PM

"They managed to avoid making some mistakes in places I thought they'd make them!"

Sounds perfect!

Anonymous

I feel like they avoided making mistakes rather than avoiding places

Anonymous

I guess I managed to put what I was thinking into words! Yay, me!

Anonymous

Edentulina obesa are really pretty snails

Hat off

Anonymous

5:19 PM

Those first green ones I showed you earlier

Anonymous

They belong to Streptaxidae

Anonymous

I can't decompose either of those names in my head

Anonymous

Apart from the endings

Streptaxidae reminds me of thos Strepto-something.

Anonymous

I bet if @Cerberus were here, he would know :-)

Anonymous

5:21 PM

@DamkerngT. Streptococcus?

Maybe Streptomycin. :)

That, too!

Anonymous

Ah!

Anonymous

Everyone in English-speaking countries knows "strep" as in "strep throat"

Anonymous

etymonline.com/index.php?term=strepto-&allowed_in_frame=0

Anonymous

Here we go

Anonymous

5:22 PM

> strepto-
> 　　word-forming element used in science to mean "twisted," from Latinized comb. form of Greek streptos "twisted, easy to bend, pliant," verbal adjective of strephein "to turn, twist," from PIE *streb(h)- "to wind, turn" (see strophe).

I don't know about -axidae.

Anonymous

0

Q: Should I use 'in the profession of manual turner' or 'as a manual turner' in this text?

I have some question. Should I use 'in the profession of manual turner' or 'as a manual turner' in this text? Which sentence is better? I completed my education in the profession of manual turner at Basic Vocational School and then graduated from Technical Secondary School as a tech...

grammar synonyms

Anonymous

What's a manual turner?

Anonymous

A machinist?

I remember that one. I remember I found that it's an occupation.

Probably a machinist. (Can't really remember the details.)

Anonymous

5:30 PM

There's too much activity on ELL for me to look at every question now.

But a manual turner must really turn something, I gathered.

Anonymous

ell.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/11374

Anonymous

We should try to avoid editing additional errors into answers

Eh? Why is that?

i.e. / e.g.

5:32 PM

Isn't editing a good thing?

Anonymous

Yes, if you aren't adding errors to someone's post :-)

Ahh... I see now. I thought you were objecting to all edits in general.

Anonymous

> I is used when the speaker is the agent (i.e. the subject) of the verb.

Anonymous

This is nonsensical

Anonymous

> I is used when the speaker is the agent of the verb.

Anonymous

5:34 PM

This is merely wrong

But some readers might mistake your edit for approval (of sentance, for example).

I pretty sure that some users will take your edit as an approval of the whole answer.

Anonymous

. . .

Anonymous

But the whole answer is wrong.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Depressing chat message of the day :-)

I'm sorry! It's just something I think possible.

Anonymous

5:38 PM

Haha, you don't have to apologize for saying something you think is true! :-)

Just possibly true. I can't say for sure for all users. :)

user116848

So I am back to Nature pic in my profile Yay!

user116848

And hello!

@Arrowfar I can still see you! Hello!

Anonymous

I still see your old picture for the time being, @Arrowfar.

user116848

5:39 PM

Sorry to disturb

Anonymous

You aren't disturbing anyone

nods

user116848

haha. Well, it'll change in few moments guys :D

Anonymous

Disturb is transitive and would typically have an object (Sorry to disturb you), although you might be able to get away with the intransitive usage here

user116848

@snailboat :-)

Anonymous

5:40 PM

@DamkerngT. It's just that it'd be a pain to write an accurate answer

Anonymous

So I haven't taken the time . . .

Anonymous

I left a couple comments, is all.

Comments indeed help!

Anonymous

Very few verbs are actually always transitive

Anonymous

But it's nonetheless often strange (or ungrammatical) to see a transitive verb without an object

Anonymous

5:41 PM

Some linguists would say there are transitive and intransitive uses of verbs, and of course a transitive use of a verb requires an object

Anonymous

So then we could restate what I said above more accurately as "Very few verbs actually have only transitive uses"

nods -- I think it's safer for non-native speakers to speak or write in full, though sometimes I think elision could be at work.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think I would generally agree with you

Anonymous

Same is definite and *a same N is ungrammatical. — snailboat 6 secs ago

Oh, this is very confusing. My cable TV renumbered channels again!

Anonymous

5:45 PM

This seems like a common error among learners.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. How rude!

All those channels for Asian Games were moved to somewhere else!

Anonymous

I wonder why they decided to renumber.

Oh, they do that regularly.

I think they did that twice last year.

Anonymous

I wonder why they decide to do that regularly!

5:47 PM

To help their subscribers get their mental exercises, perhaps!

Anonymous

Hah.

Anonymous

Well, it does force them to learn.

Anonymous

That's a bad thing, though.

Official reasons usually were about adding more channels, or reordering them to make them more logical.

(I usually disagree with the latter.)

Anonymous

Every time you make a UI change, you have to weigh the learning cost you demand of your users against the potential gain.

5:48 PM

Indeed!

I also noticed that I changed my viewing behavior when they changed the channel numbers.

user116848

"User interface"<--- I had to google the short form :)

user116848

UI

Congrats!

Anonymous

Who are we congratulating on what?

user116848

Me. On finding a stupid meaning.

5:51 PM

To Arrowfar that he found "User Interface".

Anonymous

Oh! Congratulations!

I didn't mean stupid or anything. I'm sure I don't know a lot of abbr.

I still can't find my channel. sobbing

user116848

So I was going through some robotic avatars in the internet. But thought that they would be too techie here :)

user116848

@DamkerngT. Oh no!

Maybe I have to check the news instead of watching the match.

user116848

5:53 PM

Yes, that would save your time :-)

user116848

But less fun

user116848

@DamkerngT. Damk you watch games on TV or internet?

TV

Oh, they mentioned Ambush Marketing: incheon2014.kr/complaint/ambushMarketing/overview/index

user116848

It's all in Thai lol

Hah! I think it's in Korean, but if you look hard enough, you will find "English" on the page.

user116848

5:58 PM

So, I had to delete one answer from the ELU today because it was accumulating too many vote downs :(

Anonymous

Oh! Would you care to discuss the answer?

Anonymous

Or the question

user116848

I answered it wrong, maybe that's why

Oh, you probably answered incorrectly.

I do. I'm multitasking!

Anonymous

I don't have enough reputation on ELU to see deleted answers

user116848

5:58 PM

@snailboat Yes absolutely!

user116848

looks

turning on the curious mode

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