English Language Learners - 2014-07-27 (page 1 of 2)

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user116848

12:18 AM

@StoneyB How come you never come to ELU chat?

user116848

And Hello!

12:51 AM

Hello, Arrowfar ... It is because I am basically an unchatty person. I'm a writer and prefer to thinking about things for a while before I write anything down.

@Arrowfar And I have no social skills to speak of.

user116848

Hey! Yeah that's what I thought too :)
But your writing skills and grammar is good so I thought why not?

user116848

@StoneyB In your sentence: "I'm a writer and prefer to thinking about things..." If I don't use gerund or to + -ing form here, will I still be correct? Like this: "I'm a writer and prefer to think about things"

See? - When I write it down without carefully reviewing it of course I screw it up. I meant "prefer thinking". But "prefer to think* is just as good.

user116848

Oh, I see :) Thanks!

1:08 AM

Also, I am a fairly old man, and not uptodate in cultural matters: I don't watch TV, I don't see many movies, I am woefully ignorant of contemporary music. So I lack a common vocabulary with most of the people here. I don't even follow football! -I'm a baseball fan.

1:44 AM

@jimsug you are wrong. This is for English Language Learners for petes sake. Not Comptemporary English Learners! Why are you so purblind and parochial? Maybe you could use some liberal thinking like those Republicans in COngress who insist birth control is sacrilegious...7 — user8153 2 hours ago

user116848

1:54 AM

@DamkerngT. How can I put on hold a question? Or only well reputed users can?

2:06 AM

@Arrowfar Did you mean "vote to close"?

To cast close votes, you need 500 reps on ELL.

(On ELU, it's 3000.)

user116848

@DamkerngT. No I meant "To put on-hold as off topic". Can I do it now? or I need much more rep.?

Unless you're an especially high rep user on some tags or a moderator, you can't put a question on-hold alone. A typical on-hold question is a result of 5 users voting to close.

user116848

I see.

As far as I know, StoneyB is the only one who can put on-hold (or mark a question as duplicated, I'm not very sure) on grammar questions single-handled, besides moderators.

user116848

So in the above qs you voted to close?

2:20 AM

nods -- Yes. Once the question is on-hold, everyone can see who voted to close.

user116848

> put on hold as off-topic by jimsug, user3724662, Damkerng T., Zhanlong Zheng, Esoteric Screen Name 1 hour ago

user116848

^ here

user116848

Oh, I see

I agree to put it on-hold. My reason is more like ESN's than jimsug's, but I was too lazy to write a new reason when I voted.

user116848

:)

2:42 AM

I still can't make up my mind to be for or against things like lyrics, old-english, middle-english, literature, literary-criticism, etc. on ELL. Considering that we already have a tag for lyrics, we might welcome some or all of them.

And on that note, I have to leave. :)

Anonymous

3:19 AM

I'm not sure Old English or Middle English are really on-topic. I'm okay with Early Modern English, though

user116848

I have a punctuation question.

6:50 AM

@DamkerngT.

7:08 AM

3

Q: All of them are wearing an orange shirt. OR All of them are wearing orange shirts

Let's say there're three boys, and they all are in an orange shirt. Then, which one is correct? A. All of them are wearing an orange shirt. B. All of them are wearing orange shirts. Of course, each of them is wearing ONE orange shirt, but because all of them are in a orange shirt, there're th...

Does the accepted answer actually discuss the OP's question?

2

Q: What's the meaning of this present perfect sentence?

The sentences are: Mary has worked as a teacher for over 25 years. It has rained heavily for 2 hours. Does it mean "Mary" is still working as a teacher or she is no longer working now? Does it mean it is still raining or it stopped? Since it cannot mean both, so how to suggest either one of ...

meaning-in-context present-perfect

That seems to be a good, practical grammar type of question. :)

user116848

7:25 AM

@F.E. Hello!

user116848

I have a punctuation question.

@Arrowfar Hello back :)

user116848

@F.E. Which is better here? (writing with comma or period): "Try to switch off lights and fans when you leave the room. Except when you leave for a very short time" or "Try to switch off lights and fans when you leave the room, except when you leave for a very short time".

It seems to me that the default, neutral version would probably be your 2nd version (with the comma). Though, I could easily see a sign in a classroom with the 1st version.

user116848

So both are okay, right?

7:31 AM

It depends. If it's prose in a formal report, then the 2nd version would probably be expected.

For a sign in a classroom, the 1st version would be preferable--maybe, or maybe not.

imo.

user116848

Oh, okay. Thanks.

user116848

I am answering the above question which you posted :) Let's see

I'm composing an answer to the 2nd question: the one on the present perfect.

user116848

Me too :D

user116848

@F.E. How is my answer? :)

user116848

7:41 AM

0

A: What's the meaning of this present perfect sentence?

Here we are using the present perfect tense: • for something that started in the past and continues in the present: They’ve been married for nearly fifty years. She has lived in Liverpool all her life. Note: We normally use the present perfect continuous for this: She has been l...

user116848

10:51 AM

@snailboat Hello!

user116848

How many answers have you given today?

user116848

g2g. Later!

12:16 PM

morning

@F.E. I think your answer points out one important thing: the present perfect doesn't have to always be read as either exclusively "something completed" or exclusively "something has happened for a while and is still going on". (Apart from other possible readings.) Most learners seem to more or less aware that but can't tell when it means what. (I've seem some ELL answers claimed something like "We've worked for several hours today" definitely means the work was done, finished, confidently.)

@fahdijbeli Morning!

is true this ? "In round one" ?

In should be lower case not uppercase In --> in

What is the full sentence?

6

Q: How do expert writers avoid using "I" when they have to refer to themselves in their article?

How do competent authors, in a refined and perhaps (slightly) formal way, refer to themselves without saying I? I've seen the term "this writer" somewhere. How is it with a native? Are there other terms that are a little bit more formal and delicate than I is?

word-choice writing

in the response

Suppose someone is writing about Mr. Smith's performance in a chess tournament and, after saying "In round one, Mr. Smith played against Alec Jones" and describing his performance in that round, went on to say "In round two, Mr. Smith played against me". A reader might expect the description of the round to be focused on the writer, rather than on Mr. Smith. If instead the text had been "In round two, Mr. Smith played against yours truly."

look at the response not the question

It is a quote, and this one is supposed to be read as a sentence.

(So the uppercase I in In is appropriate.)

12:31 PM

ok thanks

No problem.

2 hours later…

Anonymous

2:58 PM

This might just be my ignorance talking, but I think you could get away with either upper or lower case there

3:09 PM

ldoceonline.com/dictionary/such — Ice Girl 2 hours ago

Suppose that I flagged this with "not useful", what would happen?

(Would it end up as more work for moderators?)

Anonymous

I s'pose the flag would probably be declined

3:55 PM

0

Q: Is the sentence "How is <name>" localised to game-specific forums?

I keep seeing people say "How is X", where X is the name of a game or a band. I think the implied question is about the entertainment quality of the thing in question, e.g. "Do you find this game fun?", "Are X a good band in your opinion?", "What do you dislike about X?". Most of the time senten...

usage sentence-structure internet

Suspiciously perplexing...

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I thought it might be a legitimate learner's question.

Anonymous

Although it seems the author is actually a native speaker

Anonymous

So I suppose it's the result of attempting to apply logic to the language in a way the language didn't expect :-)

0

Q: Go Into Exercise

It seems that one can write: He went into action. He went into seclusion. Could I then write: He went into exercise. ?

grammar meaning usage

Ahh, I guessed who asked it right!

Anonymous

4:11 PM

That's an interesting question. I'm afraid it's the sort of thing that might be best answered by additional exposure to the language rather than a Q&A site

Also note that it seems like action was used as if it were a class of some sort (like a sub-class of noun).

I think I might try to promote my ESL grammar some day.

Anonymous

Well, you could possibly define a subclass of nouns { action, seclusion, … } which fit into "X went into Y"

Anonymous

I don't know if it's a helpful thing for learners to do, though

Anonymous

Let's see.

Anonymous

corpus.byu.edu/coca/?c=coca&q=32209991

Anonymous

4:15 PM

Exercise is not on the list of collocations!

Is bankruptcy an action? :)

Anonymous

Oh, I don't think they implied that the set is entirely made of actions

Anonymous

They mostly look like resulting states to me

On the contrary, I believe that they (the OP) assume so.

Anonymous

Why do you think so?

4:18 PM

a moment...

Anonymous

I see action and seclusion presented as equal examples of some unlabeled class, not the latter as an example of the former

As far as I can tell, this is where it begins: ell.stackexchange.com/questions/24536/the-ball-from-a-cross

Anonymous

Oh, there's more to the story than just the question you linked to

> A ball is a physical object. A cross is the act of sending a ball across the field. The part:
"...when he and Lineker both jumped for the ball from another Barnes cross..."
suggests that a physical object (ball) could somehow appear as a result of an act (cross), which sounds weird.

Anonymous

Well, that question is certainly confused.

4:20 PM

Also, there is another question on "go into stalemate". ell.stackexchange.com/questions/30024/go-into-stalemate

Anonymous

The only thing I see that this class of nouns has in common is that they denote resulting states, and go into N expresses that change of state

Anonymous

Probably they don't even have something like volition in common

Ahh... I think that's a better way to explain it!

Anonymous

But the set of collocations there is idiosyncratic

Anonymous

You need to memorize which ones are common (either implicitly or explicitly)

4:23 PM

nods -- I guess that most of us do that implicitly.

Anonymous

I don't think you can use just any state

Anonymous

Well, you probably have to do it implicitly to at least some extent

How would explain this?

(I like to call this the jingles effect.)

Anonymous

Jingles?

4:24 PM

Hello @skullpatrol! What is this?

in English Language & Usage, 14 mins ago, by skullpatrol

in Mathematics, 11 mins ago, by N3buchadnezzar

@skullpatrol The only time the word incorrectly isn't spelled incorrectly is when it is spelled incorrectly

@snailboat Yes. Something you might not really want to remember, but after hearing a jingle enough times, you would remember it somehow anyway.

Anonymous

Ah! Advertising jingles

Yeah!

Anonymous

Perhaps just Jingle Effect, then :-)

4:25 PM

@skullpatrol Oh, that's neat!

Anonymous

@skullpatrol By using italics

@snailboat Ahh... I see. Thanks!

Anonymous

Use–mention distinction

The use–mention distinction is a foundational concept of analytic philosophy, according to which it is necessary to make a distinction between using a word (or phrase) and mentioning it, and many philosophical works have been "vitiated by a failure to distinguish use and mention". The distinction is disputed by non-analytic philosophers. The distinction between use and mention can be illustrated for the word cheese: Use Cheese is derived from milk. Mention "Cheese" is derived from the Old English word "cyse". The first sentence is a statement about the substance called cheese; it uses the word...

@skullpatrol This is one of many reasons why I like language. We can do double-meaning or re-meaning anything any time. This one uses spelling incorrectly as spelling 'incorrectly'. :)

0

Q: What is the aspect of the following two "stand"?

What is the aspect of the following two stand? You stand to make a lot from this deal. They stand accused of crimes against humanity. Would it be possible to use the present progressive tense here instead?

To answer this question, I think we need to know how many aspects we have in English first.

Anonymous

I don't understand why they asked about aspect when they're using the learner's terminology "present progressive tense"

Anonymous

4:32 PM

That would seem to imply that aspect has been subsumed under tense

I think we can safely call him he. :)

Anonymous

Did you think my use of singular they was infelicitous?

Anonymous

It seemed okay to me.

Hah! I thought you already know about him, so calling him they sounds a bit odd to me.

Anonymous

Maybe because I was thinking of the OP as, well, "the OP"

Anonymous

4:34 PM

Well, in my idiolect, it was fine :-)

Ahh... I thought you might've forgotten about him for a while. :)

Anonymous

I don't have to go out of my way to resolve referents all the time

Anonymous

Even when I know for a fact it's possible

Anonymous

(Which I do―I saw his photo and recognized it, even though I didn't click the question link)

I see. To me, when you used they, it sounded like you forgot him.

Anonymous

4:37 PM

I don't really know what the rules are for singular they.

Anonymous

I'm pretty sure there are some rules. :-)

But back to the question, I think he was influenced by that grammar book (which I already have forgotten its name).

Anonymous

But I leave those rules alone, and they leave me alone ;-)

Anonymous

Leech's Meaning and the English Verb?

@snailboat I don't know the rules, so my gut feeling is probably not right. :)

@snailboat Ah, yes! That one!

Anonymous

4:38 PM

I don't have that book. Does Leech refer to the progressive as a kind of tense? That sounds unlike him

I'm not sure. I think it might be the case. Leeche might explain aspects in the book, and the OP merged that with his old knowledge.

Anonymous

In both books I have co-authored by Leech, he refers to the progressive as a kind of aspect

Anonymous

And he is an esteemed professor of English linguistics. It seems unlikely to me. Though I don't have the book in question

Anonymous

So I can't be sure.

Anonymous

I'm afraid I have enough books about English for now :-) I'm trying to collect more books about Japanese at the moment

4:40 PM

But the question makes me think... What is the aspect of the present simple?

Anonymous

I have a rather sizeable library now (maybe 50-ish books about Japanese?)

Anonymous

Well, in that terminology, I would say "simple"

That's a lot!

What would Leeche call it?

Anonymous

I think also "simple"

The simple aspect, too?

nods -- Ah, I see. Thanks!

Anonymous

4:42 PM

Simple: He knows English.
Progressive: *He is knowing English.

@snailboat Apart from the Use-Mention distinction. I always thought that using quotation marks around a word meant that the author was giving a special meaning to that word?

Anonymous

I think Leech calls the perfect an aspect, unlike Huddleston and Pullum

Anonymous

@skullpatrol Quotes can have more than one meaning in different contexts.

Anonymous

One possible meaning is to communicate the use-mention distinction, just like italics

Anonymous

Another possible meaning is as scare quotes

Anonymous

4:44 PM

And hey, quotes can even indicate quotation :-)

Anonymous

Quotes are interesting cross-linguistically

Ah, they call it "scare quotes"! (And I thought its name is "air-quote".)

Anonymous

Indicating that something is a quote can distance the speaker from it, or allow the speaker to disavow direct knowledge or agreement with something

Anonymous

Air quotes are when you make physical quotation marks in the air

Anonymous

They can be used to indicate scare quotes

Anonymous

4:45 PM

Scare quotes, however, can and often do occur in print

Anonymous

Nonstandardly, people also use quotation marks for "emphasis"

Anonymous

(People take their quotation marks quite seriously. Some people get "upset" when you use them for emphasis!)

So, I was right :-)

Anonymous

I think so

As @DamkerngT. said "We can do double-meaning or re-meaning anything any time." :D

Anonymous

4:48 PM

Re-meaning-ing!

Anonymous

And remorphologization.

Oh, the term morphologization led me to Glottopedia!

Anonymous

Oh, yeah, it's an analogue of grammatic(al)ization and lexicalization

Strange how my questions always end up in linguistics.

:D

Anonymous

4:53 PM

@DamkerngT. In Japanese, adjectives didn't always inflect for tense

Anonymous

They had what are now the い and く endings

Anonymous

The く ending is adverbial―links to a following verb (or such)

Anonymous

So, what is now はやい "quick/early" could become はやく "quickly"

Anonymous

(You'll hear both of those all the time)

Anonymous

But はやく combined with the verb of existence, ある:

Anonymous

4:55 PM

はやくある hayaku aru → はやかる hayak'aru

Anonymous

(I'm glossing over historical forms here because they won't help you much at the moment)

Anonymous

And from that, we get our past tense:

It looks like I heard only はやく .

Anonymous

はやく＋あった hayaku atta → はやかった hayak'atta

Anonymous

These days, we have 〜い (present tense adjective ending) and 〜かった (past tense adjective ending)

Anonymous

4:56 PM

The latter has the verb ある hidden inside it :-)

Anonymous

(In Japanese, the verb ある is very frequently used for purely grammatical reasons and lacks any actual meaning. It's a dummy verb.)

Anonymous

Adjectives couldn't inflect very much on their own, so they borrowed ある and its set of inflections instead!

Ahh... Like わかった.

Anonymous

Well, that's different because it's not an adjective, it's a verb form

Anonymous

But actually, it etymologically probably has ある in it, too

Anonymous

4:58 PM

Giving it a passive/potential meaning

Anonymous

wak-ar-u

Anonymous

And as a result, わかる has no passive or potential form in modern Japanese

Anonymous

(It's more like "can understand" than just "understand")

Pardon the interruption, but our quotation discussion reminded me of these actual quotations:

"Math is the art of giving the same name to different things."

"Poetry is the art of giving different names to the same thing."

Anonymous

Hehe, nice!

Anonymous

5:07 PM

Say, @skullpatrol, have you read this? medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/…

@snailboat Not yet, thanks :-)

Wait, "With some straightforward logic, one theorist has shown that macroscopic quantum objects cannot exist if P≠NP, which suddenly explains one of the greatest mysteries in physics" -- Doesn't this mean that P = NP, assuming quantum objects exist?

So, according to those quotes:
math is like a dictionary where one word has different meanings.
While poetry is like a thesaurus where different words have the same meaning.

I changed to star the latest one!

math:poetry::dictionary:thesaurus

5:22 PM

3

Q: She was so angry (that) she couldn't speak & There was such a lot of rain (that) we couldn’t go out

In the sentence "She was so angry that she couldn't speak", can I omit "that"? Does "She was so angry she couldn't speak" sound natural to you? In addition, in this sentence "There was such a lot of rain that we couldn’t go out", can I omit "that"? Does "There was such a lot of rain we couldn’t ...

word-choice conjunctions subordinate-clauses

Replacing "that" with a comma: Is that actually taught in grammar books or school?

Hmm... I think it's better to just drop the that without adding a comma.

> "It was raining so hard, we couldn't go out."

The comma version is okay to my ear, but it seems to read a bit differently (as to style) to me.

By the way, I just have my iPad got its screen protector film on. The screen is kinda sticky!

Anonymous

It turns it into a parenthetical

Hi all

5:26 PM

Hi

@F.E. I read this one fine, too. Strange!

Hi!

@DamkerngT. It's okay, but just a little different from the "that" version, imo.

@skullpatrol You are here yet

nods -- Perhaps that's what I feel too.

@skullpatrol I have a question. Yet and still are the same or not?

5:29 PM

Because, in the "that" version, the word "so" is licensing the indirect complement "(that) we couldn't go out".

And complements are integrated into the clause.

@IceGirl not the same

@IceGirl Almost always, no two words are really the same.

Anonymous

But they're often overlapping

@IceGirl You are here ~~yet~~ still?

Anonymous

Yet is now an NPI (Negative Polarity Item)

5:32 PM

@IceGirl You have not left yet?

OK

:)

still used in the positive sentence

but yet used in the negative sentence

@skullpatrol yeah?

Anonymous

Yet can be used in questions as well. "Have you left yet?"

@IceGirl Yet I tried.

5:38 PM

OK

Anonymous

@skullpatrol Good point, it's not an NPI in every sense

@skullpatrol What do you mean by this sentence?

Yet I tried.

@snailboat what does "NPI" stand for?

Anonymous

@IceGirl In that sentence, "yet" means "but"

Anonymous

Negative Polarity Item

5:39 PM

icic

Anonymous

NPIs typically appear in "non-affirmative contexts" (basically, questions and negatives):
1. Have you left yet?　(question)
2. I haven't left yet.　(negative)
3. *I have left yet.　(affirmative)

Anonymous

I am simplifying a little bit.

@IceGirl snailboat is right

icic

:D

Anonymous

5:41 PM

Some words have negative meaning and allow NPIs, even though there's no explicit negator like not:

Anonymous

1. I doubt he's left yet.
2. *He's left yet.

Anonymous

Here, doubt allows an NPI

I asked this question in ELL

0

Q: what is the difference between "yet" and "still"?

what is the difference between "yet" and "still"? When we can use "still"? and when we can use "yet"? Are they synonyms or not?

grammar meaning difference

Anonymous

Both words have their own sets of meanings and usage. There's some overlap.

Anonymous

Where they overlap, you'll notice they typically appear in different parts of the sentence:

Anonymous

5:44 PM

> He still hasn't left.
> He hasn't left yet.

Anonymous

Why do you suppose that might be?

dunno

> Are they synonyms or not?

@IceGirl What do you mean when you say Are they synonyms or not??

Anonymous

Synonym is usually taken pretty loosely.

semi-synonyms

5:46 PM

@DamkerngT. It's obvious I think

Anonymous

Although I get the feeling people who use the term one way or another often assume other people are using it the same way

Anonymous

And it ends up unclear

It's vaguely obvious, and I think it's useful to be more precise in this case.

In short, I'm not sure what you mean when you say synonyms.

np

don't worry

Anonymous

It's okay. An answer would have to be more specific than "yes" or "no" anyway

5:52 PM

Just some clues: Would people think she, he, it, they are synonymous? And why?

@DamkerngT. For a robot, yes :D

Though, the Japanese will soon change that, I suspect . . .

Hee. :D

Anonymous

It's probably too late.

Anonymous

Poor robotto.

Robotto dance!

┏(--)┛┗(-- )┓┗(--)┛┏(--)┓

5:56 PM

:D

Anonymous

Robotto were once so innocent.

Anonymous

Anonymous

(He is the modren man)

Hah! I haven't heard the first verse of the song!

(I remember the modren man!)

Anonymous

Which part are you referring to as the first verse?

6:01 PM

Domo Arigato :)

Anonymous

The Japanese is transcribed wrong in that video. It should say "mata au hi made" (till the day we meet again)

Anonymous

And "himitsu o shiritai" ([I] want to know [your] secret[s])

Ahh... I was being curious about that!

Anonymous

No you weren't. That's a stative progressive. You were curious about that. :-)

Anonymous

Did you do that on purpose? :-)

6:02 PM

:D

Anonymous

Nice robot dance, by the way!

Anonymous

He also pronounces secret funny.

himitsu, you mean, I think.

Anonymous

Instead of the usual pronunciation of secret /ˈsik.rət/, he pronounces it /sik.ret/, like the spelling

Anonymous

No, in English

Anonymous

6:04 PM

Listen to around 1 minute in

Ahh... The chorus!

Anonymous

Oh, yeah, maybe I should have said they instead of he

Anonymous

I don't know who sings the chorus

Also, manni-can!

Anonymous

Oh yeah!

Anonymous

6:06 PM

I love how pronunciation changes in singing

Anonymous

I like his fake British-ish accent

Talking about British...

Anonymous

Haha, that's silly!

Just for flying out loud. Hehe!

Anonymous

I haven't seen that movie. Or Cars.

Anonymous

6:11 PM

You might think I would have, given my apparent affinity with planes.

Anonymous

But no.

Anonymous

I did see the snails movie, Turbo

Hmm... I think you might like them. I mean there are lots of talking vehicles in them. :D

Anonymous

It turned out to be about cars.

@snailboat Oh, I think Turbo is about snails!

Anonymous

6:12 PM

Yes!

Anonymous

You think correctly!

Anonymous

Anonymous

It was a cute movie.

I'm Skidmark!

LOL (for Shadow)

Yet is synonymous with though and though is synonymous with still, one might say that yet is also synonymous with still. If we keep doing this, how big the cluster of the synonyms of yet would be, I'm curious. :D

Anonymous

Yet → though → still → frozen → solid → reliable

6:34 PM

@snailboat Probably we might get almost all the words in the cluster!

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