English Language Learners

5:28 AM

I suppose that "who" over there and "who" here are quite different groups of people.

And we have a very wide range of learners here.

I'm also curious what ogicu8abruok meant by "big words". :-)

"Big words" != "formally".

After reading the script there, I think there is very wide range of users there too. :-)

@DamkerngT. Hi

I made a room for Spanish language.

Did you see it?

No. Oh, you can speak Spanish too? Wow!

We sure can!

Not yet

I want to learn it

Can you help me?

5:42 AM

@IceGirl can link it

I'd like to join

I see, I see. I think Nico can help you a lot then. :-)

@Nico OK

I don't know how to link it

@IceGirl I'll see if I can find it

Copy the link there and paste it here.

Are you aware of spanish.stackexchange.com?

5:44 AM

No

Oh, lots of visitors/day there!

Not this one

Spanish stack looks strong!

Hmm... Is Spanish the native tongue in Mexico?

(I'm not so sure.)

Anonymous

Languages of Mexico

Several different languages are spoken in Mexico, with a large majority of the population fluent in Spanish while some Mexicans still only speak their native indigenous language. Indeed, the government of Mexico recognizes 68 distinct indigenous Amerindian languages (from seven different families, and other four isolated languages) as national languages in addition to Spanish. According to the Commission for the Development of Indigenous Peoples (CDI) and National Institute of Indigenous Languages (INALI), while 10–14% of the population identifies as belonging to an indigenous group, only a...

Spanish Language

5:47 AM

@snailboat Hello! Good evening! And Thanks!

here's the link

Anonymous

So Spanish is the native language of most people who grow up in Mexico, but there are a number of other minority languages spoken which you might call "native tongues" of Mexico.

> Indeed, the government of Mexico recognizes 68 distinct indigenous Amerindian languages (from seven different families, and other four isolated languages) as national languages in addition to Spanish.

Wow, that's a lot of languages!

Anonymous

6:14 AM

@DamkerngT. I don't really know

Anonymous

But Dot's shell is coming along :-)

@snailboat Hooray!

Anonymous

I discovered a snail ability I was unaware of.

What is it, what is it!?

Anonymous

I give them little peeled carrot pieces, which are of course full of moisture.

Anonymous

6:16 AM

Snaily especially loves them!

Anonymous

So, one of my snails climbed on top of a carrot piece

Anonymous

Sat there for a while... and absorbed its moisture!

Nice!

Anonymous

Afterwards, that one carrot piece looked white, really dry

It's a snail's spa.

Anonymous

6:17 AM

The others were still bright orange :-)

Hehe.

Anonymous

I like the idea that a snail can just absorb carrot.

Does your snail look orange? :-)

Anonymous

Such talented little land mollusks!

Anonymous

You know, they don't look especially orange yet.

Anonymous

6:18 AM

But maybe if I keep feeding them carrot :-)

Hah! :-)

I wish I could do that with English grammar.

Laying English grammar books on the floor, and then I sleep on them. :-)

Anonymous

Yes... Absorb their moisture!

Oh, no, not only the moisture!

:D

Anonymous

I looked up carrots on the internet.

Anonymous

The internet claims that carrots are 87%, 88%, and 90% water.

6:22 AM

Eh?

Oh!

Anonymous

(I consulted three different the internets.)

Really?

I think it's not that moist.

I like watermelons more. :-)

Anonymous

Apparently they're mostly cells that have water inside.

Carrots here are rather dry (or dried?).

I don't know if they were dried purposely.

Anonymous

→ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrot#Nutrition

Anonymous

6:24 AM

> Most carrot cultivars are about 88% water, 7% sugar, 1% protein, 1% fibre, 1% ash, and 0.2% fat. The fibre comprises mostly cellulose, with smaller proportions of hemicellulose and lignin. Carrots contain almost no starch.[21] Free sugars in carrot include sucrose, glucose, xylose and fructose.

Anyway, I like carrots too!

Anonymous

You're like a snail!

Anonymous

My favorite fruits are hot peppers.

Anonymous

I'm a fan of several kinds of melon, carrot, green grapes, strawberries

Anonymous

But my most favorite fruit is the delicious pear

Anonymous

6:27 AM

Apples are tasty, but pears have them beat.

It would be impossible to pick a " World's Greatest Dessert," but if you're going to have that conversation, the classic creme caramel has to be part of the discussion.

It would be impossible to pick? What does it mean?

Anonymous

There are many good options.

Anonymous

It's hard to pick the best dessert, because there are so many good choices.

World's Greatest Dessert?

Anonymous

My usual dessert is a fresh fruit. Possibly from the list above. Lately the most common choices for me are pears or bananas

Anonymous

6:29 AM

@IceGirl Best dessert

Oh, I misread it the first time I scanned the line. (I read dessert as desert.)

but if you're going to have that conversation?

Anonymous

@IceGirl It's impossible to pick. But if you're going to try to pick ("What's the best dessert?" "My favorite is mint chocolate chip ice cream with sprinkles and pecans")

Anonymous

But if you're going to try to pick anyway... One of the choices you need to consider is "classic creme caramel"

When you combine stunning looks with amazing taste and texture, this classic is hard to beat.

What does it mean?

Anonymous

6:38 AM

Those are good things about "classic creme caramel"

Anonymous

"this classic" is "classic creme caramel"

Anonymous

It has "stunning looks" = it looks nice

Anonymous

It has "amazing taste and texture" = it tastes good and feels good

Anonymous

"Hard to beat" means it's really good. It is hard to come up with a better choice

Anonymous

I have to go to sleep now

Anonymous

6:41 AM

Have a good night, @IceGirl!

I'm sorry, but as a friend, this is painful to watch.

Good night! @snailboat

@snailboat Thank you very much. Rest well. Bye

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Good night!

Sleep well and sleep tight!

When you combine? what does it mean here?

6:43 AM

Guess first.

mix?

Yes.

The way the almost-burnt caramel layer gets fused on, becomes one with, the creamy custard is nothing short of magic.

almost-burnt caramel layer gets fused on?

What does it mean?

Hmm... can we have a little talk about your learning?

What?

6:50 AM

I mean, as a friend, I don't like to help you like this.

Why?

:(

It might be a bit hurtful, but this is out of my good intention.

I don't think this is good for you.

You're a translation student, right?

When I can't understand some parts what should I do?

yes

right

I'm not sure, you're in your first or second year, I think.

I guess that the course is probably four years long.

So?

6:53 AM

When you graduated, you should be way better than I am now, shouldn't you?

Of course

OK

Then between now and then, when would you surpass me?

One day

np

:)

don't worry

I think I've helped you sometimes for maybe four months already.

:D

6:55 AM

Right?

RIGHT

But from what I can tell, you still ask the same questions.

I mean, I expected to see you improved more than you had.

OK. I'll try to never ask anything from you

"(

I didn't say everything or anything.

But I expect different kinds of questions from you.

Something that tells that your skill has improved.

For example, instead of going through an essay one line at a time, you should be able to understand the whole essay already.

And then you might ask some finer points.

OK

What does fraiche mean?

I didn't find in dic

7:00 AM

Frankly, out of context, I don't know.

It sounds like something exotic.

1\2 cup creme fraiche

> Crème fraîche is a soured cream containing 30–45% butterfat and having a pH of around 4.5.

From Wikipedia.

Thanks

No problem. :-)

See you later in Spanish Language room my friend :)

Have a nice time

7:04 AM

Okay. See you.

3:03 PM

Hmm... Just found this: books.google.co.th/books?id=SDfbz8wpKGIC&pg=PA231

The Thai c1a: A marker of tense or modality?

by Jiranthara Srioutai

What's cla ?

จะ

I don't what kind of system she used to transcribe Thai sounds.

Oh it's 1, not l?

Yeah. :-)

But one thing I can tell. It's not very consistent within itself.

Even papers are not always respectable.

Maybe it's a bit too strong choice of word; let's just say trustful.

A similar paper (almost identical, maybe a draft version) can be found here: unige.ch/lettres/latl/chronos/srioutai.doc

It's kind of funny.

It's a paper about Thai, but there's no Thai letter!

3:08 PM

I wish either I misunderstood her system or she could have been more careful with the transcription.

That's normal, I think. The paper had to be published internationally.

So I still don't know what kind of the transcription system used in the paper. :-)

A broken one, I think. :-)

I think at least she should have put another line with Thai script on each example.

But oh well

In any case, there is a good chance that she will teach you if you can get into Chula. :-)

Oh

She is THAT professor?

You know her?

Wait a minute

let me check

I know her, but she doesn't know me.

She is one of the reasons I wanna get into CU.

3:12 PM

Then you can ask her about her system for me one day. :-)

She pretty much did everything I want to do in the future (study in English field, further education at Cambridge on Linguistics, become a lecturer at a prestigious university here in Thailand)

It was from 2007-2008, so she must be younger than she is now.

I just hope that all of us should be more careful with the notations we use.

The system she used might be consistent somehow, I just couldn't figure out how.

What did you find weird?

(or inconsistent, I mean)

I guess that the digits suggested the tones.

Maybe

3:17 PM

And there are these I and II at the end of some words.

If they suggest the tone, there are too many errors.

That's why I said inconsistent.

I think

the digits probably suggest vowel duration.

The word จะ was transcribed as c1a on Google Books, but c2a in the .doc file.

The full, final paper can be reached at people.ds.cam.ac.uk/kmj21/srioutai2004.pdf

3:20 PM

I think the short vs. long vowels were denoted by colons (:).

Oh, nice! I couldn't find the PDF.

Well yeah, that's pretty common :\

Hmmm

It was from 2004, that means she must be very much younger.

10 years already

Still

she was good enough to graduate from Cambridge.

Oh, I'm sure not many people there really know about Thai language.

(Or knew at that time.)

Some young Thais couldn't figure out our tones sometimes.

I still don't buy it.

Hmm

Let me think

3:25 PM

e.g. some of us write น๊า

and ค๊า and ว๊าย etc

Yup. :-)

Strangely enough, I ran into her paper while I was looking for tenses and modalities in English. :-)

The Thai transliteration system used here is that which is found in Diller (1996).

A-ha!

Oh, Oxford University Press.

Too bad I can't access the site anymore today.

Don't know why.

I can still access dictionaries there though.

See if I can find parts of it on the web.

Found it here: archive.org/details/rosettaproject_lao_ortho-2

reading...

Anonymous

Most linguistics papers written in English use romanized script regardless of which language is under discussion

3:34 PM

Oh, they assigned classes to our letters!

And they suggested tonal marks.

I see. That makes sense.

I'm not sure I like the system.

It kinda makes sense.

Mostly.

So 1 = mid-group, 2 = high-group, 3 = low-group, I believe.

They also classified things like อย, หย, หร, หว, etc. as 1 or 2.

The system is old.

(I still couldn't figure out what I and II are.)

I think

3:39 PM

When was it published?

1996

Not that old.

Well, not so old, but it's not good enough.

They also tried to lump Thai and Laotian writing systems together.

Now, that's understandable.

It's difficult for a researcher to change an existing system.

Maybe she didn't like the system herself.

It reminds me of the time I was up on the hill with Hmong people. :-)

They didn't have their own writing system.

Well she could have made up a new system.

I don't think it required a lot of time, given what already existed.

3:43 PM

And I think some priests in the past adapted English or Roman letters and tonal marks for them.

You mean in Thailand?

Maybe so, but inventing a new system should be done carefully, anyway.

Yes, I was in Chula's hill tribe club. :-)

ชมรมชาวเขา

Oh, you meant a new romanization for Thai in Thailand, perhaps?

I would use the one we already got, the Royal Institute's one.

That one doesn't mark the tones, does it?

Looking at the paper, considering the system used, the tones weren't transcribed. Yes.

So the RI's system should be sufficient.

What do you mean?

3:48 PM

Now I can say comfortably that she transcribed the sentences fine. It was the system that was odd.

How can it be sufficient if the tones aren't transcribed?

It's as sufficient as in road signs, official names, etc.

But not in a paper about Thai language?

I don't see how the one used in the paper can be any better than the RI's system.

Both ignore the tones completely.

If we already lost that information, losing long-duration mark doesn't really matter, imo.

Well, not completely, the system in the paper still tells the markers (although the markers don't exactly tell the tones.)

But they are equally useless for most readers, yes.

3:52 PM

No, there is no marker.

I meant the numbers 1, 2, 3 ...

m3 means ม, just because it's อักษรต่ำ

No tone.

Oh

I misunderstood

Hmm

See, 1, 2, and 3, are not really useful.

Well then I agree that the RI system is better.

3:55 PM

Sometimes, the choice of the system can be a political issue, I think. :-)

I think it's probably better to just use the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 for the mid (สามัญ), low (เอก), rising (โท), high (ตรี), falling (จัตวา) tones respectively.

If they chose to do that, that would be really useful.

Btw, hello @snailboat!

Anonymous

Hello!

How are your snails doing?

@Fantasier A typo I think: They has been looking for those bank robbers

Oops, Thanks!

4:07 PM

No problem.

Oh, I missed that built-in problem. A relatively easy question to answer. :-)

I couldn't find that "stock down 10%" (or something along that line) question.

I think it's related to this question: ell.stackexchange.com/questions/21342/…

Anonymous

Oh, FumbleFingers accidentally wrote his answer in a comment!

4:23 PM

What should we do? What could we do from now on?

running amok...

I think what happened in the "manhole" question was really strange.

Anonymous

etymonline.com/…

Anonymous

Uh-huh?

Anonymous

I left a couple comments

Anonymous

What happened over there? I didn't read everything

Nobody decided to vote to close.

Anonymous

4:25 PM

Yet!

Anonymous

Close because it's about etymology? Or why?

And now we can see a lot of exchanges in there.

Well when a discussion has gone interesting, nobody (?) wants to end it.

To me, yes. Etymology.

So, the criteria to vote to close is actually "not interesting"? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Hah! amok was from Malay!

For many people, I think.

Anonymous

4:27 PM

The criteria to vote to close are flexible

Ah, that I can live with.

Anonymous

It's up to the individual users on the site to make judgment calls

Anonymous

If no one wants to close it, it won't get closed, even if it could be by the guidelines people have largely agreed upon

Collective brains can be very flexible, I would say.

Btw, I think I've seen a lot of Vic's answers that are good, but badly formatted.

Perhaps Vic always answered via a mobile phone.

(I guess that they might look fine on mobile phones.)

But really, to me it's difficult to read.

Anonymous

Can I see an example?

Anonymous

4:31 PM

Also, my snails are all asleep :-)

A: More confusion about by/until - starting a question

0

The first sentence is wrong. As for the second one, it isn't grammatically wrong, but as Jim has already told you it's isn't something a native speaker would say. You could say: "What time did you finish work last night?" As for "by/until" , they are both prepositions. Until= before the time when...

Anonymous

I agree, that could be formatted more neatly.

Some of Vic's answers are quite good.

I think Vic's English is also good.

(assuming that the typos and punctuations were because the phone)

Anonymous

I feel like it would be more usual to front "What time" than "Until what time", even though the latter is possible

Anonymous

> What time did you stay up until for work last night?

4:37 PM

I think most people would rephrase the question.

Anonymous

I see nothing wrong with that sentence

Anonymous

But the question didn't give any sort of context

Anonymous

So you can't tell if it's appropriate, or if something more usual would be appropriate

I like Jim's examples.

Anonymous

If they explained what they were asking about, an answer could potentially suggest rephrasing it

4:39 PM

I believe that there is no real context. The OP was just hacking the language in order to try to pinpoint the usage of by vs. until.

Anonymous

But since they didn't, you can't really

I think the OP missed the point of OP's own question.

Judging from the avatar, I think the OP is a he. :-)

Anonymous

Well, the question didn't include enough information

He tried to force by and until into any sentence he could come up with.

And see if it could work.

Anonymous

Well, until is fine.

4:41 PM

nods

Using by there isn't very fine, I believe.

Btw, I think it's the 10th question of this by-until series.

Anonymous

Right, because staying up is an activity

10th?

Maybe more. You can take a look at his profile.

But afaict, it's a series of by-until questions.

J.R. edited the title of this last one in the series to "More confusion about by/until - starting a question". :-)

It's the 3rd, I think.

Oh!

Anonymous

4:44 PM

Fronting until doesn't change much (except make the sentence a bit less natural)

Anonymous

So it's not terribly relevant to the question, I think

I think it started from this one: ell.stackexchange.com/questions/21178/…

Anonymous

They should really be explaining why they think one thing is okay and the other is not

Maybe 4th or 5th.

And I think the series has at least 6 questions already.

Oh I miscounted.

4:46 PM

@snailboat I think it's because mapping by and until back to his L1 will sound almost exactly the same thing.

So he can't really tell the difference.

But I'm sure he is not a beginner.

His English may be even better than Maulik's or mine.

Oh, we have a red M&M in our room how.

MετάEd

@DamkerngT. You mean my easter egg?

Anonymous

I think it looks like a shiny red painted egg.

Anonymous

Yay!