English Language Learners - 2014-04-13 (page 1 of 2)

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4:11 AM

which are the best tools/softwares/book to learn english grammer?

for non-english users

3 hours later…

6:50 AM

How do I know if the following refers to the present or the future?

> (Mother to her child) -- If you have done your homework, I will give you some money.

Assuming that the mother doesn't know if her kid has done his homework or not. Is it if you have done your homework (you probably have already done it now; Mom thinks it's possible), I will ... or if you w̶i̶l̶l̶ have done your homework, I will ... ?

7:15 AM

And I found this (from cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?q=597&t=5)

> just like we would have if you have passed the first exam.

If they use 'would have', didn't they already assume that 'you' didn't pass? Why not 'had passed'?

7:45 AM

@Fantasier It might be simpler if you think of English tenses as a set of two tenses: past and non-past. In other words, put both present (now) and future (after now) into the same sphere (of thought).

> If you have done your homework, I will give you some money.

The mother sets up a condition. She does it now. And, she will take the action once the condition is fulfilled.

> ... we would have if you have passed the first exam.

I read this exactly the same way I read the mother's sentence.

The Government of Canada sets up this condition in the present (now). If the condition is fulfilled (you have passed the first exam), they will take the action.

However, they use would instead of will to make it less definite.

In short, they relieve themselves from the obligation to take the action (if the condition is fulfilled). So, if an applicant really passed the first exam, they wouldn't always have to take the action (send the letter, I think).

Disclaimer: I'm not sure if this usage in CaE is also kosher in AmE and BrE. (It is perfectly fine to me. It seems like it's perfectly fine in CaE too.) -- In other words, I think had passed is unnecessary, and might not be appropriate because they want to state the conditions as real.

(Also, it would be funny if they wrote: ... we will probably have if you have passed the first exam.

8:18 AM

)

:-)

4 hours later…

12:34 PM

I'm afraid one of my comments might get flags as offensive }:>

0

A: In simple words, what is the difference between 'possible' and 'probable'?

When an event is probable, it is more likely to occur than if it were just possible. For example, it is possible that England will win the World Cup but it is probable that Brazil will.

I think most people understand the humor. :-)

But I still think it's a good use of impossible.

LOL

Now, now.

:)

We'll have to wait and see what the British troop makes of it when they see it.

Be sure to hide the best you can when they come. :-)

1:15 PM

@DamkerngT. I thought, just like you, that they said if you have passed the first exam because it's not that unlikely nor impossible. However, it's kind of weird to see would have used like this (although I just think will have will be even weirder).

Hmm... What was that would have (or will have) shorten from again?

There might be a better explanation, but I think your answer is good enough.

@DamkerngT. would've ?

No, I mean the main verb.

give you the date or mail you a letter

I see.

1:18 PM

would have (given you the date or mailed you a letter)

So it's hypothetical.

will have would sound strange.

Yeah. It's hypothetical.

Wait

Hmm

> If you have passed, we would have given you X.

I think if we view it as hypothetical, then the form of have passed should be backshifted, too.

It's a little odd, but I can't rephrase it to be more concise than the way it is.

1:20 PM

Neither can I.

To imply that it's possible that you have passed the first exam, and that we would have done this at the same time.

Tricky, this.

nods

I would say that: If you passed we would give you X is safer

Yeah, but that probably makes the whole message lose 'the sequence' the writer has in mind, I think.

That is exactly why I thought the writer chose to say "If you have passed, ..."

Yeah, this makes more and more sense as we're discussing it.

> If you do not pass .... If you pass ..., we will ... , just like we would have if you have passed ...

1:26 PM

Wow, I'm lucky again. Hello! @StoneyB

Better to quote the entire passage.

> If you do not pass the exam the first time, you can write it again. If you pass the second time, we will either give you the date or mail you a letter, just like we would have if you have passed the first exam.

Hi, guys. Wrestling with conditionals?

Yes!

Hello. Yes.

The part "just like we would have if you have passed the first exam" is very curious.

Yes it is. It should be had passed.

1:29 PM

Yeah!

I think Fantasier's thought so from the start.

Would it also work if I changed it to, "just like we would ~~have~~ if you ~~have~~ passed the first exam"?

Probably okay now.

How do you strike text here?

--I give up

Three minus signs before and after.

~~test~~

I see

Out of context, you can write either of those, but you have a context which defines passing the first exam as a past counterfactual, so no.

I have just discovered that in Posts you can get bold, italic and bold italic in "code" if you put the codeticks inside the font ticks. A whole new world opens up!

I see. Thanks!

1:36 PM

Does it work here? Test bold italic

Good to know. Thanks!

Italic in code!

Oh! I never knew that!

Thanks.

It sure does. ~~Test strikethrough~~

Neat!

Let's try this one: Test<sup>test sup</sup>

Nope. No super- or subscript here.

1:39 PM

I think HTML tags don't work here.

Yeah.

Basically the same markdown as comments?

I think not exactly the same.

But close enough.

Strikethrough doesn't work in comments, I think.

This will be useful to know if ELL ever emerges from Beta and we can define our own stylesheet. Codeticks could be used for an alt font, but without the nasty background. Perhaps a monospace font, so we can build tables ... what's the nice monospace font Windows is distributing now?

Consolas.

Good font!

Before Consolas I'd always used Courier New.

1:45 PM

I still do!

I'm fond of it. In my own portfolio I do video scripts in Consolas so it retains the old typewriter look but isn't so clunky.

Consolas is neater (than Courier New), I think.

It's blacker, and on a smaller body.

...And we suddenly run out of questions to discuss!

It seems to support all the IPA glyphs, too.

1:53 PM

@StoneyB Oh, that's something.

Maybe I should ask this. I think I can, but I've never been certain to use the to refer back to general things I mentioned before. Something like Patients with cancers are .... The patients usually ...

Critical, I think. We have to have IPA, and forms with macrons and breves and aigus and graves and circumflexes and umläute and so forth.

@Fantasier That's fine. So is these patients or such patients. Basic rule: the goes with specific entities you can reasonably expect your reader to identify.

@StoneyB Now I'm certain! Thanks! I once loved such so much; I used it anywhere possible. The result was... kind of weird, though.

We all have our quirks. I'm excessively fond of the less popular points: dashes and colons and semicolons.

And a very old-fashioned one I think of as a super-colon ... :—

I'm also fond of dashes and semicolons. But when I see too many dashes, my eyes usually hurt.

Yes! It's usually a sign you're trying to pack too much into one sentence.

2:02 PM

@StoneyB Do you know what it's officially (or commonly) called ? This :-

I have no idea. The only place I've ever seen it discussed (as opposed to used) is in The Reader Over Your Shoulder, where the authors simply say “A long dash may be put after a colon, for emphasis.”

Thanks anyway! I didn't know it's old-fashioned until you said it is.

I can't remember seeing it anything written in the last, oh, 50 years. But it is very useful for introducing a long quotation or sub-narrative. I wouldn't use it in the middle of a paragraph.

I've seen it used to introduce a list. Something like

> ...:-
> - a
> - b
> - c

In my language, though, not in English.

Yes, that too.

It's a sort of anchor: it announces that eventually we're going to come back to this point.

2:14 PM

I see.

Or at least that's how I use it.

... Anyway, glad to see that somebody around here understands conditionals, Fantasier!

Thank you! (If it's meant to be me!)

Yes, indeed. There's a newish user who's reviving all the old questions about conditionals and pushing really hard for clarity, so my brain is burning out trying to keep up with him/her! And I'm in the middle of researching a new Canonical Post on the subject, so I'm going around in circles anyway.

Please keep up your great work! Your Canonical Post on the perfect construction is very informative and useful.

I'm looking forward to @DamkerngT's writing an authoritative piece on English phonology, with scores of waveform illustrations.

And links to soundfiles.

2:25 PM

Huh? He's writing that? I'm looking forward to it too!

@DamkerngT. Are you listening?!

He's AFK, I think.

We'll bully him into writing it.

Good idea.

Is that 'away from keyboard' or 'alles ferklemt'?

2:26 PM

I have no idea what the latter means.

It's a bad joke ... a pseudo-spelling of verklempt (Yiddish) or verklemmt (German), meaning "overcome with emotion".

I see, then, at first I meant the former, now I meant the latter :P

'Way back before ELL made it to Beta I suggested that we were going to have to write our own English grammar for learners. That may happen, if only by accretion.

I would love to see it!

(And would love to contribute, too, if I could)

Well, in my experience, the way it works is you pick something you think you understand ... you go out and consult a few scholarly works to make sure you've got the terminology right ... you then discover you didn't understand as much as you thought, so you read more scholarly works ... then you discover that they all contradict each other and nobody really understands it ... finally you pin down what everybody agrees on and what nobody agrees on ...

... and you write that up and say "Here's what I do", but you can do something different, within these limits."

It's really just like being back in graduate school, only you have to write intelligible English instead of dissertation prose.

2:44 PM

I see! (I'm not even in grad school yet, but good metaphor.)

... and now I have to go. I promised myself that I would finish another chapter of Conditionals: A Comprehensive Empirical Analysis this morning, and I promised my wife I would chip another two square feet of carpet glue off the basement floor today. So much for the weekend off.

@StoneyB Good luck with all your (many kinds of) work! Have a great weekend!

3:01 PM

@StoneyB Just come back in here. Sorry. I was AFK.

catching up...

Damkerng! I heard you're writing one GREAT Canonical Post on phonology!

It was not very canonical, imo. I just wrote what I had learned.

still catching up... :-)

No. Not that schwa one.

I mean like a comprehensive guide! You're writing one!

Oh! Now I have to write one?

You're writing one!

3:06 PM

> I'm looking forward to @DamkerngT's writing an authoritative piece on English phonology, with scores of waveform illustrations. And links to soundfiles.

That is very challenging!

I'm not sure if I could do it canonically.

You can!

I think I get what StoneyB said.

I think so.

I'm just bullying you, really. :P

Haha.

Well, I will keep that in the back of my mind.

I usually like to talk casually.

Doing something canonical requires more systematical research.

But in my opinion, sounds are the key to language learning.

In my opinion, it's one of the keys.

3:13 PM

Yes, a very important key. Perhaps the most important key, imo.

Given that we want to speak the language.

If we don't care about speaking the language, then it's another story.

We can learn a language without having to speak a word, I believe.

Then, again, to be fluent, we need a way to be able to use the language spontaneously.

@DamkerngT. I agree; I have no idea how to pronounce Pali Pali-ishly.

Because you have no need to speak in Pali.

So you can learn it the way a deaf would do.

But whether you can react or think in Pali spontaneously, fluidly, would be questionable, in that case.

I think I would do the same, if I wanted to learn Latin or Pali or Sanskrit.

Nobody really speaks them.

Have you ever heard of Esperanto?

Or Lojban?

@DamkerngT. I've heard of; I've tried learning a bit. I wasn't patient enough, though.

I think people assume that Esperanto is L1-neutral. I think I disagree with them.

Perhaps it's neutral for westerners.

What do you mean by 'L1-neutral'?

3:23 PM

I think simple Thai or simple Chinese would be more neutral.

You mean, 'as easy to learn as the first language'?

@Fantasier It is an invented language. They tried not to rely the vocab and grammar on any specific L1 (first language).

I can only guess.

@DamkerngT. I see. But to me, it's western-ish.

One of the goal is that a native speaker of any language should have equal chances (or difficulties) to learn Esperanto.

Yes, that is what I observed.

It's very difficult to invent an absolutely new thing.

They claim it's easier than English. But I bet many people think "there's already English, why bother learning Esperanto."

3:28 PM

Exactly.

And we also already have Simple English.

Do you know the concept of "stress-timed"?

No.

English is a stress-timed language.

Still haven't a clue.

To put it simply, if we focus on the stressing, we will find that the intervals between stresses are approximately equal.

For example,

> He reads a book.

Which words or syllables would you stress?

reads and book ?

3:33 PM

nods

I see.

That's the standard stressing. Let's keep it that way.

> He's read the book.

> He hasn't read the book.

Approximately, all utterances will have about the same duration.

> He wouldn't've read the book.

I see.

You're particularly into phonology?

Quite. :-)

Mostly acoustic and auditory phonetics.

But it's not my formal education. I educated myself on the subject.

You're obviously good at educating yourself.

3:41 PM

So people like snailboat know a lot more than me when it comes to terminologies and the standard set of symbols linguists use.

Thank you. I take that as a compliment.

It is!

You're a smart person yourself too, considering your age. I can say that.

(I think I feel comfortable enough to be a bit more assertive about that. :-)

Thank you.

Did you know that there is such thing like this? I hadn't until yesterday.

International Linguistics Olympiad

The International Linguistics Olympiad (IOL) is one of the newest in a group of twelve International Science Olympiads. Its abbreviation IOL is deliberately chosen not to correspond to the name of the organization in any particular language, and member organizations are free to choose for themselves how to designate the competition in their own language. This olympiad furthers the fields of mathematical, theoretical, and descriptive linguistics. Format The setup differs from other Science Olympiads, in that the program contains both individual and team contests. The individual contest con...

Oh! I don't!

I thought we have that for young scientists and mathematicians.

Now we have that for linguists too!

Consider the questions

ioling.org/problems

Many languages there, I don't even know the names!

3:46 PM

> Transcendental Algebra?

In International Linguistics Olympiad? -- confused

Well, the scope includes mathematical linguistics.

I think this one ioling.org/problems/2012/t1 would be easy for Thai participants (if we did send our students there!).

Looks like it's geared toward computational linguistics.

Haha! Thais or Laotians!

I think linguistic analysis is popular in Eastern Europe.

When you mentioned International Linguistics Olympiad, Russian came to my mind.

To me, it looks more like a math Olympic than a linguistic one.

With the emphasis on reasoning.

Well, I think linguistics is heavily involved with cognitive science, where maths is involved, too.

If it's open, maybe we should think of sending some of our young bright minds there soon.

It's certainly open; we just don't send our people there.

(At least that's what I think)

3:53 PM

I don't know why. shrug

We're good enough to win other Olympiad competitions of this sort.

It's not so popular in Thailand. It's not, well, as common as other sciences in high school level.

I will keep that in mind and see if I can do anything about it. :-)

Thai people sometimes also work in mysterious ways.

They do!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Although you can use "work in mysterious ways" that way, since it's part of the set phrase "God works in mysterious ways", it may be taken as having implications you didn't intend

I used it literally, not idiomatically. I think you understand me.

I don't know how to express this very same idea with other phrases.

In any case, I had no religious intention.

Anonymous

4:12 PM

Yes, I thought you were using it literally :-)

Anonymous

That's why I made my comment

Anonymous

Just as a note for the future, not because I misunderstood

Thank you.

I'm just only a tiny little wheel in the Thai society. :-)

Anonymous

Hey, it's a TvTrope! :-) tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InMysteriousWays

Oh, it's a trope!

The End of Eternity was mentioned there too!

Anonymous

4:20 PM

Ahh, good memories.

Anonymous

There are spoilers for Good Omens on that page. That was a great book.

I skipped spoilers. :-)

Slumdog Millionaire was also mentioned.

I like the movie.

Anonymous

I don't remember Cat's Cradle very well. Maybe I should re-read that.

I don't know Cat's Cradle.

Bilbo was in there too.

Anonymous

You may hear references to ice-nine from time to time.

4:24 PM

Oh, like unknobtanium?

Anonymous

Unobtainium is not usually spelled with a k, it's un- + obtain + -ium

Oh, yeah. That makes more sense. I haven't seen it spelled before.

Anonymous

It's relatively widespread in written SF

Oh, that makes the gag even more hilarious!

Anonymous

Or in discussions of written SF.

4:26 PM

I heard it in The Core.

Anonymous

What's The Core?

A movie.

imdb.com/title/tt0298814

Anonymous

Wikipedia says that people say it was bad.

Earth core is about to stop spinning, so they have to jump start the core.

It wasn't very good.

It's kinda watchable.

Anonymous

Oh! The earth stopping spinning is a great setting idea.

Anonymous

4:28 PM

That reminds me of Spin by Robert Charles Wilson, which is not about that idea, but does use the word spin :-)

Anonymous

That's a good book.

So they have to dive to the core. They used unobtanium to make the shield of their vehicle.

Anonymous

Make sense.

I think the movie was almost good.

Anonymous

Hey, let's go use our free OED access to see if the OED has unobtainium yet!

4:29 PM

I don't know what it really missed.

Haha!

Anonymous

oed.com

Anonymous

User/pass libraryweek

Anonymous

> No dictionary entries found for ‘unobtainium’.

Anonymous

Now I'm sad.

Oh!

Anonymous

4:30 PM

> No dictionary entries found for ‘handwavium’.

(I couldn't find the search box there.)

(There should be one, right?)

Anonymous

Yep.

Anonymous

oed.com/view/Entry/…

Anonymous

> 2. intr. To wave or gesture with the hands; (spec. in extended use) to use gestures or insubstantial language in order to convince or impress.

Anonymous

> 2010 Thoughts from Kansas (Nexis) 1 Apr., His essay just handwaves at the matter, asserting that those who disagree are ‘not really thinking about these issues seriously.’

Anonymous

4:31 PM

Hence, handwavium!

LOL

Anonymous

A fictional material you aren't bothering to explain the "science" behind :-)

Anonymous

Speaking of which, Ringworld is good, too.

Anonymous

It's one of the original Big Dumb Object books.

Anonymous

It's kind of a stretch to call it science fiction since just about everything in the book (in the series) is implausible

4:34 PM

Big Dumb Object books?! curious

Anonymous

But it's a great read anyway :-)

Like that improbable drive, I think. :-)

Anonymous

Big Dumb Object

In discussion of science fiction, a Big Dumb Object (BDO) is any mysterious object (usually of extraterrestrial or unknown origin and immense power) in a story which generates an intense sense of wonder just by being there; to a certain extent, the term deliberately deflates this. Probably coined by reviewer Roz Kaveney, the term was not in general use until Peter Nicholls included it in The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction as a joke. Big Dumb Objects often exhibit extreme or unusual properties, or a total absence of expected properties: *The object discovered in Quatermass and the Pit wa...

I wish I could have an improbable drive within my reach.

Anonymous

Sadly, the infinite improbability drive is infinitely improbable.

4:35 PM

In short, it's impossible.

Oh, that sounds like a good answer for nima!

Anonymous

Worse! It's like passing through infinitesimally probable and out the other end.

> Nima: In simple words, what is the difference between 'possible' and 'probable'?

> ELL: impossible = infinitely improbable

> snailboat: impossible = passing through infinitesimally probable and out the other end

Hehe.

Anonymous

Hehe. Of course, none of those phrases like "infinitely improbable" make any sense, technically speaking, but sometimes it's fun to put words together like that anyway.

Anonymous

(Fun for me, anyway. Some other people insist on making sense all the time. More's the pity, really.)

It's clear that nima is going to ask a lot more questions of this kind.

I think he asked 10 questions already today.

Anonymous

4:40 PM

I left a comment on one of nima's questions. I was bad. I comment answered.

(I've seen only a few of them.)

Anonymous

It was that question about deep structure.

Oh, the one from yesterday?

Anonymous

Yeah.

I'm worse. I didn't even post a comment for nima.

Anonymous

4:41 PM

I should have just upvoted user2619's answer and left it at that. (I think I did upvote, but I left a comment too :-)

Anonymous

Their answer had the right idea, IMO

I already forgot the question. :-)

Oh, I can recall it now.

> ell.stackexchange.com/questions/21188/…

Is it typical in "deep structure" English learning style that a teacher would assign students to collect sentences of the same structure?

@snailboat Hah I beat you by 32 seconds.

Oh!

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