English Language Learners

Anonymous

12:58 AM

Macmillan Dictionary's definition for above says above can be used as an adjective: "Please reply to the above address."

Anonymous

But the same dictionary's definition for below lists no such usage

Anonymous

@CarSmack I think that treating above and below as though they have the same grammar is a somewhat common non-native error

Anonymous

I don't know. I think attributive above sounds fine.

Anonymous

I think the ship may have already sailed on above.

Anonymous

Other people are free to disagree. :-)

CopperKettle

7:23 AM

4

Q: passed both -- meaning?

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/us-congress-passes-russia-sanctions-arms-ukraine-054621335.html Usage example with a context: Identical texts of the Ukraine Freedom Support Act passed both the Senate and House of Representatives on Thursday, but because of a technical issue it returned to the S...

I've been reading on ergative verbs and wondered if the verb passed in the question above is ergative.

Damkerng T.

7:48 AM

@CarSmack @snailboat I think the below sentence is weird; however, the sentence below, the sentence above, and the above sentence are fine. I think I feel that it's weird because I haven't seen it in books.

@CopperKettle Looks like it's one of them.

Damkerng T.

8:11 AM

3

Q: "is" vs. "are" and when to use them

I have been debating the usage of these two forms of the word "To Be" Is the number and address valid? Are the number and address valid? Which form of the verb is correct for the sentence?

questions subject-verb-agreement interrogative

Very interesting.

CopperKettle

8:43 AM

@DamkerngT. Thank you, Damrkerng!

<--- created the tag "ergative-verbs"

CopperKettle

9:32 AM

I wonder if "ergative verb" and "anticausative verb" are the same.

CopperKettle

10:23 AM

On a second thought, "the Bill passed the Senate" is not ergative, since we imagine the Bill passing on itself through the Senate.

Anonymous

3:30 PM

@CopperKettle When I hear "the bill passed the senate", I think "the bill was passed by the senate"

Anonymous

That is, they seem roughly the same to me in terms of meaning.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yeah, I probably agree with you on all of that :-)

Anonymous

Making above and below postpositive does seem to fix everything, if people want to do that

CopperKettle

Good evening, @snailboat! I quoted the wrong sentence. I wondered if passed was really ergative in " it returned to the Senate where it passed by unanimous consent"

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Anticausative verbs are unaccusative, which are intransitive by definition

Anonymous

3:41 PM

Ergative verbs are not

CopperKettle

But Wikipedia says "Examples of anticausative verbs are break, sink, move, etc."

Anonymous

But it's only anticausative when it's intransitive

Anonymous

I don't know―I've never liked that particular bit of terminology

Anonymous

It's a bit hard on the brain, don't you think?

CopperKettle

And it's ergative regardless of whether it's intransitive at the moment or not?

Anonymous

3:43 PM

When break, sink, or move are used transitively, they're not considered anticausative

CopperKettle

@snailboat You bet I do!

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Yes

CopperKettle

I was reading a question on "causative verbs" and veered off into the depths of Wikipedia.

Anonymous

I just started waking up

Anonymous

I need some caffeine to finish the process :-)

CopperKettle

3:44 PM

(0:

Anonymous

I learned these terms in the context of Japanese

CopperKettle

oh

And I never heard of these terms. Especially "ergative"

Anonymous

Ergative–absolutive language

An ergative–absolutive language (or simply an ergative language) is a language in which the single argument ("subject") of an intransitive verb behaves like the object of a transitive verb, and differently from the agent ("subject") of a transitive verb. For instance, instead of saying "I moved her" and "she moved", speakers of an ergative language would say the equivalent of "I moved her" and "her moved". == Ergative vs. accusative languages == An ergative language maintains a syntactic or morphological equivalence (such as the same word order or grammatical case) for the object of a transitive...

Anonymous

When you call a verb "ergative" in English, you're saying it's kinda like this stuff.

Anonymous

But you can describe English without using terms like that.

CopperKettle

3:48 PM

Yes, I understood what "ergative verb" means. The pizza is cooking etc

Anonymous

I just wanted to point out ergative languages

CopperKettle

nods

English is clearly not an ergative language

In Russian, we would just add a reflexive suffix to "The pizza is cooking"

It will become "The pizza is cooking[self]"

but in "the bill returned to the Senate where it passed by unanimous consent" the use of "passed" seems somehow non-ergative.

It seems that it is only due to pronoun case system that we can distinguish English as a non-ergative language.

Nominative-accusative language: "I moved him" -> "He moved"

Ergative language: "I moved him" -> "Him moved"

This seems to be the only (or main?) difference

Anonymous

4:12 PM

As English gradually lost its case system, word order began picking up the slack

Anonymous

"I moved it" → "It moved"

Anonymous

The pronoun has the same form in both cases

Anonymous

But in the latter it is clearly in a subject role

Anonymous

Word order is more important than case in English

CopperKettle

But I guess in the Old English it was the same, "It moved", not "It[accusative case] moved"

Hypothetical ergative English:

Me (S) traveled; Her (S) traveled. (from Wikipedia)

Otoko ga kodomo o mita

Interesting. Special standalone syllables to mark cases "ga", "o"

Anonymous

4:18 PM

Analytic case markers

Anonymous

They've been analyzed as suffixes, as clitics, and as separate words

Anonymous

Some linguists write: otoko=ga kodomo=o mita

CopperKettle

But they have no special symbols? They're implied in the hierogliphs?

Anonymous

Hmm, that needs several replies

CopperKettle

@snailboat Oh, I thought ga referred to otoko (Man in the nominative case)

Anonymous

4:29 PM

1. Hieroglyphics are Egyptian holy writing (lit. "sacred carvings")

Anonymous

2. Hieroglyphics are phonetic in nature

Anonymous

3. Japanese is not written with Hieroglyphics

CopperKettle

Oh, I'm sorry!

Anonymous

4. Analytic case markers in modern Japanese are always written with separate kana

Anonymous

男が otoko=ga　←　男 represents otoko and が represents ga

CopperKettle

4:30 PM

(It's just that in Russian we often say "those Japanese/Chinese hieroglyphs")

Anonymous

Some English speakers refer to Chinese characters that way, too, though it's inaccurate

Anonymous

The most neutral way of referring to Chinese characters is to call them "characters"

CopperKettle

nods

Anonymous

People have taken the misunderstanding of Egyptian Hieroglyphics as not representing sound and generalized the term to describe any writing system they mistakenly believe do not represent sound

Anonymous

When you use the term to describe Chinese writing, it generally conveys that misapprehension

CopperKettle

4:33 PM

nods

Anonymous

@CopperKettle But you don't have any reason to apologize

CopperKettle

okay

Anonymous

I just meant it would take me a moment to address everything you said :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

Yes, ga is a nominative case marker

Anonymous

4:35 PM

It marks what comes before as nominative

Anonymous

The nominative case is the one whose primary function is marking subjects

Anonymous

So ga is often called a "subject marker", though

Anonymous

In Japanese, the nominative case doesn't line up perfectly with subjects

Anonymous

So it's better to abstract the two

CopperKettle

Yes, in Russian NOM can be used for a noun that is part of a predicate

"A square(NOM) is a rectangle(NOM) with equal sides"

Anonymous

4:37 PM

Since Russian has a stronger case system than English, I s'pose I don't need to explain the abstraction to you :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Neat!

CopperKettle

We have no special suffix for NOM because it's the "basic form"

Anonymous

In English, most nouns can be said to have no case

Anonymous

But if we were going to pick one as basic, I'd go for accusative

CopperKettle

4:38 PM

nods

Anonymous

It seems to show up as a default case in various spots

Anonymous

@CopperKettle Even in Old English, it had no accusative-nominative contrast

Anonymous

It was hit in both cases

Anonymous

Although in some OE texts it showed up without an h as it

Anonymous

But mostly in OE things were neater: third person pronouns all had h at the beginning :-)

2

CopperKettle

4:41 PM

I -> Hi

You -> Hyou

Anonymous

Hee

Anonymous

No, I forgot to type third person

CopperKettle

(0:

oh

Anonymous

First and second person were different

Anonymous

Here...

Anonymous

4:42 PM

jebbo.co.uk/learn-oe/ch2.htm

Anonymous

There are charts here if you scroll down

CopperKettle

Yes.. "them" -> "hie"

Anonymous

This is the book I have books.google.com/books?id=68EjAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA61

Anonymous

Complete with my favorite letter, þ! :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

4:45 PM

I don't really know much about OE

Anonymous

Just the basics

CopperKettle

I don't know even basics about OR

Anonymous

Well, linguistics is an interest of mine, but there's too much to learn―stuff like OE gets sidelined while I learn about OJ ;-)

CopperKettle

I have "The Tale of Igor's Campaign" in Old Slavic, and its well nigh a foreign language to me

(0:

Anonymous

But I like to have at least a basic knowledge because it informs my knowledge of Modern English

Anonymous

4:47 PM

@CopperKettle A certain linguist would always say:

Anonymous

"There are no native speakers of Old Japanese"

Anonymous

Which applies equally well to other languages!

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

Old English is a foreign language for me!

CopperKettle

I read Shakespeare, but only with the help of a specialized website, with hints

Anonymous

4:49 PM

Shakespeare is Early Modern English

Anonymous

Which is certainly different from the English spoken today, but it's much more accessible than OE

CopperKettle

Yes, and still hard to understand

shakespeare-navigators.com

Anonymous

I have the Complete Yale Shakespeare

Anonymous

Annotations are definitely very helpful :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

4:51 PM

The funny thing is that there's a lot of Shakespeare that seems transparent to modern speakers, but really meant something else in Shakespeare's time

CopperKettle

Yes, I also noticed that (0:

Anonymous

People today often quote "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Anonymous

Often in the altered form "Methinks thou doth protest too much"

CopperKettle

Yes, she probably not protesting but stating her opinion, right?

Anonymous

Well, at the time, protest meant "promise"

CopperKettle

4:53 PM

oh

Anonymous

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4592

user116848

Hi

Anonymous

Hello!

CopperKettle

Good evening, @Farooq!

user116848

I came here a little while ago and no one was here. So I got bored and left :-)

CarSmack

5:01 PM

What time is it?

user116848

Where?

CarSmack

I mean, is the time of the chat entries localised? I guess so. Its 1102 here

user116848

I think it follows UTC.

user116848

But here it is 10 pm

CarSmack

Where's here for you

CopperKettle

5:04 PM

@CarSmack For me, the chat reports the time of your message "what time is it?" as 19:01

user116848

Pakistan

CopperKettle

Although it's 22:04 here at the moment

CarSmack

Oh hi @CopperKettle

CopperKettle

Hi, @CarSmack!

CarSmack

I'm logging in from Texas

user116848

5:05 PM

ah, I see.

CopperKettle

I'm from Yekaterinburg, Russia

CarSmack

It's 11am ish

Cool, I studied Russian for a year, plus two mns in moskva

CopperKettle

@CarSmack Wow, never knew that!

CarSmack

Hi Farooq, I dunno much bout Pakistan, sorry.

user116848

@CarSmack It's okay :-)

CarSmack

5:10 PM

@CopperKettle Is Yekaterinburg where they, um, dispatched the Tzar and his family?

CopperKettle

@CarSmack Yes! You know Russian history! I can see the place from my window.

They've built a big temple there.

Church of All Saints, Yekaterinburg

For the Church on Blood in St. Petersburg, see Church of the Saviour on Blood. The Church on Blood in Honour of All Saints Resplendent in the Russian Land (Russian: Храм-на-Крови́ во и́мя Всех святы́х, в земле́ Росси́йской просия́вших) is a Russian Orthodox church built on the site of the Ipatiev House in Yekaterinburg, where Nicholas II, the last Emperor of Russia, and several members of his family and household were shot by the Bolsheviks during the Russian Civil War. The church commemorates the Romanov sainthood. == Romanov execution == After the February Revolution, the former Tsar and his...

CarSmack

Oh wow, creepy

CopperKettle

So it goes

Ganina Yama

Ganina Yama (Russian: Ганина Яма, "Ganya's Pit") was a 9' deep pit in the Four Brothers mine near the village of Koptyaki, 15 km north from Yekaterinburg. On the night of 17 July 1918, after the shooting of the Romanov family, the bodies of Tsar Nicholas II of Russia and his family (who had been executed at the Ipatiev House) were secretly transported to Ganina Yama and thrown into the pit. A week later, the White Army drove the Bolsheviks from the area and launched an investigation into the fate of the royal family. An extensive report concluded that the royal family's remains had been cremated...

I passed the place on my bicycle once

CarSmack

I was in Moscow summer 2000,I think that was around when Nicholas was named a saint, anyway...

CopperKettle

Quite a lot of pilgrims there

@CarSmack Yes, probably.

CarSmack

5:17 PM

It was a bad summer, the Kirsk and the explosion in the underground walkway off Pushkinskaya Squate

Anonymous

I live in California, also known as The Land of Around Nine in the Morning

Anonymous

(They should put me in charge of naming time zones.)

CarSmack

Oh hi @snailboat! Where in CA?

Anonymous

Los Gatos

CarSmack

Um...

CopperKettle

5:18 PM

@snailboat Land of around 9 in the morning? I googled but found nothing (0:

Anonymous

@CopperKettle It's 9:19 now.

Anonymous

This name is going to expire shortly.

CopperKettle

Oh, I thougght it were some established nickname (0:

Anonymous

Soon we'll be renamed The Land of around Ten in the Morning

CopperKettle

I see (0:

The name Los Gatos is Spanish, meaning the cats. (0:

Anonymous

5:20 PM

That's right!

Anonymous

Rancho Rinconada de Los Gatos

El Rancho Rinconada de los Gatos was a 6,631-acre (26.83 km2) Mexican land grant in present-day Santa Clara County, California made in 1840 by Governor Juan Alvarado to Jose Maria Hernandez and Sebastian Fabian Peralta. Located in the southern San Francisco Bay Area, the grant included present-day Los Gatos and Monte Sereno, along with about a third of Campbell. It also included small sections of present-day San Jose, Saratoga and unincorporated Santa Clara County. Los Gatos Creek flowed through the center of the rancho. The name means "corner of the cats" and is derived from the cougars that are...

Anonymous

That might help you make sense of the name :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

CarSmack

Los ga-TOHS

CopperKettle

You also have Island Kiska, wich is "cat" in Russian (although it could derive from Aleutian)

user116848

5:34 PM

@CopperKettle But Google says Kiska is in Alaska.

CopperKettle

@Farooq Yes, I meant "you in the USA" have this island (formerly a Russian island)

user116848

Kiska

Kiska (Aleut: Qisxa) is an island in the Rat Islands group of the Aleutian Islands of Alaska. It is about 22 miles (35 km) long and varies in width from 1.5 to 6 miles (2.4 to 9.7 km). It is part of Aleutian Islands Wilderness and as such, special permissions are required to visit it. == History == === Discovery (1741) === In 1741 while returning from his second voyage at sea during the Great Northern Expedition, Danish-born Russian explorer Vitus Bering discovered most of the Aleutian Islands, including Kiska. Georg Wilhelm Steller, a naturalist-physician aboard Bering's ship, wrote: ...

user116848

@CopperKettle nods - I see :-)

Anonymous

I actually thought it was a generic you, like "there exists ..."

CopperKettle

@snailboat This use of "cats" for "cougars" reminded me of one hilarious question

14

Q: The word for a man who hunts a dangerous mountain cat without prophylactic?

Hello once again special team stack exchange and a usage. I search many hours dictionary for a man goes into woods for hunt dangerous mountain cat or similar enemy despite no protection or prophylactic caution. Maybe he take only small catpalt for kill crow or moose. So when cat comes he catch h...

vocabulary

Anonymous

5:36 PM

@CopperKettle Hey, I remember close voting that! :-)

CopperKettle

(0:

Anonymous

This question appears to be off-topic because it is trolling — FumbleFingers Nov 25 at 14:19

CopperKettle

It was clearly trolling. Mockingly "incorrect" speech. (0:

Anonymous

Pretty funny.

Anonymous

@DanBron: I found no definition for catpalt, hence I cannot reck fully the extent of his reckfulness. — CopperKettle Nov 25 at 12:01

CopperKettle

5:38 PM

(0:

Anonymous

It seems like it's some sort of pun on cat, but it's hard to say since catapult equally contains cat, so I don't know what motivation they'd have to misspell it …

Anonymous

Over my head, I guess :-)

Anonymous

If you ever have more questions about Japanese syntax, by the way, feel free to ask!

CopperKettle

Okay (0:

Facebook blocked an organizational page for January 15 protests in Moscow.

Probably temporarily..

CarSmack

Protests in favor of something...? (if that makes any sense)

CopperKettle

5:48 PM

@CarSmack A court decision on Navalny case will be announced on Jan 15. The guy will probably get 10 years of prison

He is a famous corruption fighter

So they set up a monkey court

mashable.com/2014/12/19/alexei-navalny-prosecution

user116848

Kangaroo court? :-)

CopperKettle

Oh, thank you @Farooq!

A kangaroo court (0:

user116848

But "The Monkey Trial". I Googled.

user116848

I didn't know that either.

Anonymous

I think kangaroo court might be the more well known of the two expressions

CopperKettle

5:53 PM

We Russians now have the expression "Basmannaya str. justice" to mean the same (0:

Because the court based on that street has been recently used to send people to prison for no reason

CarSmack

@CopperKettle I've not heard of Navalny before

I can also say I'd not heard of him before

:)

CopperKettle

@CarSmack Why should you? But inside Russia, he's known widely. He wanted to run for a president, this was his "mistake"

CarSmack

Well I read Reuters news, so... Try to keep up with world news

CopperKettle

To say in short, not everyone supports Navalny as a politician, but this case is just an open mockery of justice. If he gets the tenner, the Reuters will report, I guess (0:

CarSmack

Ic

Well I'm gonna have to go, I think, going horseback riding with daughter

CopperKettle

6:04 PM

Oh, great!

Nice riding to you!

user116848

See ya!

CarSmack

Thanks, nice chatting with all of y'alls, to use a local expression!

CopperKettle