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the Malaysian ones.. most of them are third generation there...

mana is where.. dari is from..

china is pronounces cheena

English is ingris

3:49 AM

yeah it's hard to tell. the indians look and act so indian (-: sometimes i can't tell if somebody is chinese or malay or a mix but i haven't seen to many indians that were hard to pick around here yet

probably muslim malays and muslim indians mix a lot more

you can say this: Saya mau belajar bahasa malay.

also i'm in chinatown and nobody reacts when i try chinese either. i might have to try out some hokkien. i also dug out my tamil phrasebook ...

I have never seen Chinese people as the ones in the china town in KL.. so aggressive..

they didn't mix with locals.. they use Chinese even if they are there for 10 generations.. some of then do not even speak malay (maybe most)

unlike Chinese people in Indonesia.. they use bahasa even they speak to each other, even if they know a Chinese language.. they are well mixed with locals and many marriages between them and the locals..

not to me. it's usually the indians and ones i can't pick the ethnicity of who hassle me to buy shit but i'm good at ignoring them so they don't bother too much. also the indians have a good sense of humour when you joke with them when they hassle you.

well the malays didn't learn the local language when they came either. hardly anybody around here is from here. they're all descended from people who came varying amounts of generations in the past

my wife is from an area that has its own language and another one that is closer to malay than it is to Indonesian.. I cant remember the name for the life of me now

3:55 AM

it seems singapore and malaysia embrace multiculturalism a lot more while indonesia goes for nationalism. but i haven't seen anybody not getting along since i've been here. there were a bunch of kids painting a cultural mural on the street wall of a hindu temple yesterday and some of them looked chinese

no no no...

wrong.. in Singapore there have been A few racial riots..

malay and indonesian are both just different artificial standards of the same language, malay

a few

of course. but you can't say in indonesia there's none. been to aceh? papua/irian jaya?

that's why you see advertisements for being "Singaporeans" and " all of us are Singaporeans" and the like...

my wife is from aceh

we've had them in australia too of course. that doesn't make it the norm. they're still exceptions to what is otherwise pretty good.

I guess the issue in Singapore is a bit complicated.. the major race is not the native one..

3:58 AM

well that's exactly what nationalism is. put aside your differences including language and culture and religion and ethnicity, the important thing that defines you is the national border in which you live.

and they have a big competition from Indians.. the second race in numbers

yes, but in reality this does not go..

it depends what you mean by major. here the major one by numbers is malay but the major one by economic power is chinese.

in Singapore by number and economics is Chinese..

that's where english comes in. whereas the malay language "belongs" to one group, english belongs to nobody/everybody despite being the language of a former oppresser

I'm saying this after my last visit to Singapore, it was around 10 days for a course..

and the professor was an old indian-singaporean guy.. like 75 years old..

4:01 AM

i was just reading an article about an christian chinese mayor getting voted in in indonesia

and oh god, in every story he tells, he must use "indian-sin" or "Chinese-sin" or "white-sin" and blah blah..

old people

chinese and indians in china and india seem to really hate each other. a bit like usa russia in the '80s

Indonesia is also nice when it comes to religion, for example in Jakarta there is no areas for Christians and muslims AFAIK.. they celebrate both holidays..

and then there is the micro-racism.. not sure about this term

they seem to celebrate both here. i was here during a muslim holiday last time and the lead up to christmas this time and all the shops were decorated

Chinese tribes hate each other... south and north Indians do the same..

4:03 AM

oh indeed

in china it's also mostly north south that you notice

never been to china..

the closest was HK..

but i liked the south a lot. i'll go back to yunnan. i love the mix of peoples.

what kind of mix?

many ethnicities. first languages of many is not even related to chinese.

coool

4:05 AM

i was in a Tai Lu area but nearby is a Zhuang area and that's the biggest minority in china

all signs had to be in both languages by law, just like in inner mongolia

the Yi and Tibetans are also in the south. and of course the Uighurs who are the least chinese-like of all

they are more like turks..

exactly. though in comparison to turks they do look a little chinesey. i want to go to xinjiang this time.

i was just studying my malay vocabulary. got more mistakes than i expected.

examples of words?

travel words. food words. words for things i like. common words.

headmagnet.com/lists/129559

> sotong
mangga
ibu kunci
seribu
-belas
keluar
ratus
kunci
puluh
asam
lemak

I know many of them..

but some are new to me..

the "e" letter is tricky to pronounce..

like in "pedas"

and the ng.. but I managed to pronounce it better now..

4:24 AM

well "e" can be like in "bed" or like in "the". "ng" is like in English except it can come at the beginning of words too.

the ones at the beginning is what I meant...

i can do them. it's a common sound in many languages.

one thing i wonder is if you can ever have an "n" before a "g" that's not pronounced "ng"

i suppose you never see ڠ in indonesia?

no

no غ nor ع

no "th" sound as well, as in "three"

no jawi at all. you can see it on borneo though if you cross the border to brunei

even if they use the letter ع they pronounce it a, "غ" is pronounced G

4:28 AM

if i go up the east coast here i hear there might be a lot more jawi

we do not have a native letter for G in Arabic..

Jawi you mean the script?

Jawi is the Arabic word for Javanese.. so I am confused..

jawi is the version of arabic script used for malay

I know.. but still confused..

there are lots and lots of arabic letters not used in arabic itself. just like there are lots of latin letters not used in english.

the G letter is a hell of a letter to us..

some arabs (the gulf arabs) use the letter ق instead

4:30 AM

ڠ exists in morocco to but they use it for a different sound. at least i think.

north arabs use "غ"

Egyptians and Sudanese use "ج"

western arabs use "ك"

no.. غ in morocco is totally the same in any other country..

the غ sound is the same in all dialects.. unlike ث or ق for example..

or ج

can you see the three dots on ڠ - it's different to غ

no I can't

oooooooh

ok I got it now..

the ڠ is used to replace G

same with ج but with three dots..

ڠ is ng i thought

but recently its been dead.. no one is using them across all arab countries.. they are not standard and not available in standard keyboards

in jawi

satu رنڠت

ساتو رنڠت

4:35 AM

it's called "nga". jawi has more extra letters than i thought!

ريڠكيت

forgot they have to write the vowels..

oh jawi was used for acehnese too!

yes

kelantan and pattani still use it, besides brunei

Javanese language as well used to use it..

even though they have their own script..

bahasa aceh is difficult.. I can't get a word when they speak it..

but bahasa padang is closer to malay.. sometimes I get a word here and there..

4:40 AM

i was reading that one dialect here is considered really hard too but i forgot which one

@hippietrail I was thinking the other day

before the malays came here were the aslian languages. i think a few tens of thousands or speakers are still around.

with this media thing.. it will be hard for languages to change the same way it used to do before...

yes but they still change in other ways.

so, if another group of people from the netherland moved to antarctia. and they have a tc and internet.. their language will be the same as in the Netherlands even after 400 years.. at least it will be understandable

4:43 AM

i foresee english getting more "world english" in it and the standard englishes getting less important in the next few decades

that depends on lots of things. like why they move and how they get on with those who didn't move.

I think in 100 years, everyone in planet earth will be able to communicate with any other human in the planet in a language (English?)

but i think it's been a long time since a major language split like that. afrikaans from dutch and yiddish from german spring to mind.

and maltese from Arabic.. I think maltese is the newest language on earth

Q: Which is the youngest language to have uncontroversially split off another language?

well chinese is definitely going to grow too. spanish and portuguese and french and arabic are not going away

the newest documented language on earth is nicaraguan sign language

it can be traced to the 1980s i think

0

I know linguists like to say "no languages or older or younger than other languages" because they all evolved from ancient roots. With exceptions such as Nicaraguan Sign Language. So let me explain that I'm specifically talking about cases where one settled languages splits and one branch gains ...

►

I understood almost all the words!

4:56 AM

just throw in some italian and english and you're done

►

this was also ok, I managed to get almost half of what he is saying..

Semai people

The Semai are a semisedentary people living in the center of the Malay Peninsula in Southeast Asia, known especially for their nonviolence. They speak Semai, a Mon-Khmer language. The Semai belong to the Senoi ethnic group. == Origins == It is thought that the Semai are the remnants of the original, ancient and widespread population of Southeast Asia. According to Keene State College’s Orang Asli Archive, in 1991 there were 26,627 Semai living on the Malay Peninsula. This number has increased in recent years with the advent of better nutrition as well as improved sanitation and healthcare practices...

i am going to malta for sure... i will try to stay there for a month if i can, and come back speaking a 4th language...

and i am learning Spanish now.. 5th language :D

and then, learn my uncle's Arabic.. its been a mystery to my family..

malta is on my list. next eurotrip for sure.

your uncle's arabic?

yes.. hard to understand him..

he is old.. like 80..

he uses local words that i am not aware of.. its been like 10 years i want to spend sometime with him to make a list of these old local words to keep it.. it is from our dialect "Hijazi" which is unfortunately not being recorded anywhere..

5:11 AM

saya lapar

saya suka makanan di malaysia

(y)

(y not)

(y) is thumbs up :D

"ada makanan yang enak di Malaysia"

yang is a very common word.. it means "which"

it can be combined with "mana", "yang mana" which means "which one"

"yang mana pedas"

which one is spicy

i didn't know (y) thumbs up before but i just noticed it looks like a girl's hips!

it is from facebook.. the famous facebook icon..

a girl with one leg...

5:34 AM

looks like (y)

no i cant see that.. really

(ẏ)

yes.. now clear :D

i can't find a closer image. left leg should be in front of right

[Ý] a lday made of lego!!

5:36 AM

!

[Ť]

i'll have to buy a MacBook soon..

i want to learn how to make iOs apps..

and it can only be done using a OS X machine

copyright shit.. no compilers in any system but osx

ick

Q: How to plan for road trip in Canada productively - with audiovisual travel guides?

7:20 AM

@GayotFow - check this 'new' question out :(

0

I intend to fly to the major cities in Canada, from which I'll continue by car to enjoy each locality (eg fly to Vancouver to visit Vancouver Island, Banff, the Rockies, ..., then fly to PEI and drive around it). How can I plan for these drives using real-time audiovisual travel guides? I'd want ...

canada planning guides self-guided

@hippietrail wouldn't it be that universal one they tried to make

Esperanto

7:38 AM

@MarkMayo Esperanto didn't split off a mother language

if only we could use bold flashing neon colours for some words in question titles \-:

but anyway there's much younger languages than esperanto

7:56 AM

oh it wasnt based off Spanish or something?

I thought they'd borrowed rules from certain languages

it was invented and was based on several languages. that's not the same as naturally splitting off like afrikaans did from dutch

zamenhof also took some slavic influences and just made some stuff up

Afrikaans from Flemish/Dutch ;)

West Germanic I guess

isn't dutch low german?

Low Franconian

Looking at chart on right: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaans

Wow people are technical

or called "geradbraakt/gebroken/onbeschaafd Hollands"

which @andra will now make fun of, I'm sure ;)

unlike computer programmers and visa applications d-:

8:00 AM

(shudders) vsias (shudders)

I feel bad for the 'we got rejected, now help us' visa questions

it's not something you can search

but there's only so much we can help with there

as it'll often come down to the official on the day

> It is an offshoot of several Dutch dialects spoken by the mainly Dutch settlers of what is now South Africa, where it gradually began to develop independently in the course of the 18th century.[6] Hence, historically, it is a daughter language of Dutch, and was previously referred to as "Cape Dutch"

we can help them know their situation. we can't help them get a visa.

speaking of @andra, I still don't get wikidata

who does?!

what did you need it for?

you missed the bit about Kitchen dutch ;)

he thinks it'd be a good use for a site like hitchwiki clone

well, not a clone, but if you were eto do seat61 again, what format would you use?

was what I was wondering

well, not a clone, but if you were eto do seat61 again, what format would you use?

there's also nomadwiki now, that looks quite interesting

there's even a theory that yiddish is not really a daughter of german but a daughter of slavic and that esperanto is a daughter of yiddish!

8:06 AM

well, not a clone, but if you were eto do seat61 again, what format would you use?

there's also nomadwiki now, that looks quite interesting

well i didn't want to paste in the entire article d-:

well, not a clone, but if you were eto do seat61 again, what format would you use?

gah I'm getting connection issues here; sorry for the dupe line posts

hadn't seen nomadwiki before

I think it's relatively new, but it has some useful info

probably a lot of overlap. i'll give it a peep.

8:34 AM

If anyone feels like reviewing, I'm vote-closing some older ones where they've say, not returned to clarify citizenship or other important details

9:02 AM

i put my brain to sleep trying to learn the tamil alphabet

9:20 AM

I was doing Swahili earlier. My new favourite phrase is 'pilipili hoho' (bell peppers)

10:12 AM

everybody tells me it's a fun language

pilipili is the word for pepper, like black pepper etc. in many languages.

12:02 PM

Had my first Malaysian lunch today :)

12:39 PM

Any regrets?

not yet

@RoflcoptrException: where?

i had my first indian one today. had a good malay one yesterday.

12:56 PM

in switzerland :)

but i was told that it should be authentic

i should look for a place that does raclette around here

that would be great

or fondue

fondue is always easier to find but raclette is the best

By god, raclette is not the best. People die from it here. :D

it is food to die for

i try to have it every time i'm in switzerland if i visit my friend's parents especially

1:08 PM

that's one way to see it

i should ask a question about food safety in switzerland!

or maybe it's only dangerous in france? d-:

Ste Fromagere du Livradois of Fournols

how can you die from raclette?

or shouldn't I understand that literally?

1:32 PM

It was just me pointing out how heavy a food is raclette on someone's digestion.

Nothing literal.

Plus, I am not one to dodge an occasion to bash on French people, their culture, or their food. :D

Raclette is not French!

Raclette is French

It's not only French

But don't be fooled by Swiss cultural imperialism!

Raclette was invented by the Swiss

The melted dish, maybe.

The cheese, I am not sure we can trace its origins.

Says who?

1:43 PM

Moreover, the cheese isn't even DOC, DOP, or any other DO*.

Go ahead, make the google search.

Producers in Valais/Wallis tried to have the name restricted but they failed

Yes they got an AOC for the Raclette du Valais denomination alone.

Which was revoked, although it still remains somewhat protected.

You're googling as you go?

No no I googled yesterday as my friends told me they were eating raclette.

And I started making fun of the fact that Frenchies know nothing about cheese.

:D

Well, in Nancy they really don't know much about cheese but that's because you're not talking to the right French people

1:58 PM

:D

2:23 PM

Sorry, the best cheese is from the UK

(ducks) :D

But seriously, Shropshire blue, I'll drop everything I'm doing and gorge on it when I ee it. So good.

2:35 PM

lol UK cheese

2:59 PM

stilton is real cheese. save your laughing for american cheese. d-:

Statements like this are the exact reason why they sent you ozzies down there, to the world's end. :D

especially for the cheese the americans call "swiss cheese"

you should come to Indonesia, where cheese does not exist..!! and so expensive..

and @hippietrail, cheese is "keju"

the only asians who really get cheese are mongolians. and they're so tough they don't bother to make it taste good like the wussy europeans.

but i see your stinky cheese and i raise you a stinky tofu

Yea rotten yak milk is the best.

3:03 PM

you find me a cheese with no rotten milk in it and i'll find you an individually wrapped orange died plastic cheese. d-:

and whoever saw a yak in mongolia?

well lots of people maybe but not me d-:

anyway i just ate stingray for dinner

regarding UK

i have never seen an internation UK food restaurant..

except for "fish and chips" restaurants, and they do not even say UK.. like they are ashamed of it..

well in the UK fish and chips are not restaurant food

though you can get it in some restaurants too

yes

that would be like having kebap avec pommes frites in french restaurants

Uk has the worst cuisine in Europee, IMO

3:12 PM

you probably just don't know the actual cuisine food. eat at a pub in the country.

true.. could be

it's not all egg and chips

but i never heard someone excited about the food in the UK.. unlike Italy for example..

that's because of stereotypes

maybe

3:14 PM

there are some good foodie and cooking shows in/from the UK

now american food is either bland or borrowed from elsewhere except for some special places like new orleans

for me, they are as bad as Tunisia when it comes to food..

American food is nice, regardless of it being borrowed or not..

doesn't stop it from being something "someone gets excited about"

it is straightforward and in large quantities...

then you like english food. some of it's borrowed. but you can disregard that.

it is straightforward and in large quantities

it is straight forward and in potatoes!

3:17 PM

potatoes are from peru and bolivia. america just borrowed them.

as did every other country

i spent 6 months with a family in the UK.. old couple with their daughter.. to learn English.. and i had to have dinner with them everyday.. so either they were bad cooks or i just do not know...

every day. everyday is an adjective meaning quotidien

or because i was too young and it was my first travel..

i've known bad cooks from many countries. and also people who just always eat bad food because they like it.

true.. like saudis..

3:20 PM

my most hated english food is spam. yet in korea it is worshipped as some kind of bizarre god of foods (-:

kabsa all the time..

@MeNoTalk Of course they are ashamed of it! :D

i make fun of the english people in my hostel who never want to go to a cheap restaurant to order something delicious because they think everything except egg and chips is yuck

but i usually cook the same stuff for myself over and over too because it's easy and cheap and i like it.

and vinegar!

everyone does that.. i can stay alive for months eating only noodles..

Wanna talk about staying alive cooking pasta?

3:23 PM

yep months. but then you die d-:

@hippietrail saudis only eat unhealthy food..

that's why we die young.. men die around 75 and ladies around 75 i guess..

too young for today's standards..

Can't die from pasta. Make a good sauce and you will always have carbs and proteins.

Speaking of stereotypes yesterday I made a killer bolognese, albeit with French ingredients.

but don't forget that carbs kill you these days, not fat

i buy one brand of korean noodles and add my own veggies and garlic and ginger depending on what's cheap at the supermarket. but i can't do the noodles everyone else in the hostel eats.

andra

4:18 PM

@markmayo I wouldn't dare to make fun of Afrikaans. To much respect from my part from any language

@markmayo give me a use case and I'll show you how to use wikidata ;)

e.g. the average monthly temperature for Auckland

Gayot Fow

4:31 PM

0

Q: Refusal of Family Visa

My daughter in law who has been a British Citizen for over 7 years wanted her brother and sister to come on a visit to see our family in the UK over the Christmas holiday. We as a family have told them that while they are here there would be absolutely no cost to them as we would be paying trave...

visas uk

remember that the rules and guidance is set to change in about 8 weeks.

@andra That's not a use case, that's a dataset

UK cuisine is not bad as such but many restaurants in the UK manage to ruin perfectly reasonable and easy recipes, whether local or exotic

I am not sure exactly how they do it

For example, the odds of getting a good sandwich are much better in Ireland, IMO

andra

4:56 PM

@relaxed but wikidata is about hosting datasets

5:18 PM

this a very interesting SE site, its new: World Building.SE

5:57 PM

@andra Yes, of course but a use case would be something like “you want to display the average monthly temperature for different places on your website” or “you want to import XXX in some stat software”.

The average monthly temperature for Auckland is not a use case

Besides, if it's for human consumption, I can read it off Wikipedia without bothering with some esoteric query language

andra

I am trying to convince @markmayo about the usefullness of wikidata

And an application for wikidata could indeed be: "you want to display the average monthly temperature for different places on your website”

however a use case for wikidata would be to host the different averages

6:18 PM

Gotta love this site.

Actually no, gotta love some people on this site.