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12:00 AM
Its in relationship to the Gestapo/Ostraka if thats the correct name for the Soviet secret service
 
Hey there @swift :)
Interesting
 
I think its worth remembering that art outside of the west is still predominantly centred around religion; despite the huge entertainment complex; maybe not so predominantly then
She states imagine that the police had a large map
in which they can track the movements of everyone
everyone has a card index
By tracking this motion everything that is useful to know can be found out without
disturbing the actual privacy of the individual
This would be a superb gift to the police
They'd love it - my addition
Actually, the UK police force say that get very good leads from social media
Hi @swift.
She uses antinquated language and technology but her analysis is spot on.
This is what she actually says: The Okhrana, the Czarist predecessor of the GPU, is reported to have invented a filing system in which every suspect was noted on a large card in the centre of which his name was surrounded by a red circle; his political friends were designated by smaller red circles and his non-political acquaintenances by green ones…
obviously the limitations of this method are set only by the size of the filing cards, and theoretically a gigantic single sheet could show the relations and cross-relations of the entire population. And this is the utopian goal of the totalitarian secret police. It has given up the old traditional police dream which the lie detector is still supposed to realise, and no longer tries to find out who is who, or who thinks what
!
One of the essential differences, as far as I see, is that the populace is implicated, as a large network of informers are required and which must permeate the body of the population; whereas the NSA/GCHQ surveillance apparatus is automatic.
!
She adds:Now the police dreams that one look at a gigantic map on the office wall should suffice at any given moment to establish who is related to whom and in what degree of intimacy; and theoretically, this dream is not unrealisable although its technical execution is bound to be somewhat difficult”
!
She was right about the technical execution; she was writing in the 1950s; so half a century was required; enough so that Hobsbawm would reiterate the same point in the 1990s; saying that only open air conversations would be free from surveillance
!
Arendt was a big fan of Plato
and Heidegger, obviously :)
 
12:16 AM
At least for a little while! :)
(Guattari had a dream of a city where transit would be controlled by barriers and "pass-cards" or passwords, that would variably open and close depending on the individual)
 
I think her affair with Plato carried oin for longer :)
That sort of thing is definitely going to happen
 
Interesting that the "open air" today is social media -- which gives potential surveyors a query API to track different things
Or rather the internet writ large, but again huge corporate verticals guard the gates
 
I think I read recently that only a couple of nations in the 19C had passport systems; might be apocryphal.
 
Pretty interesting if true, I guess migration patterns were very different then
 
Potentially though it possible to have access to at least some large
fraction of the internet publicly; I think some people in Kings College London are working on such an open api.
But stuff like facebook would be out of course - except you can use data-scraping
And there the 'dark web'.
 
12:22 AM
Rogue protocols!
 
I don't think people moved as much then :)
 
Yeah it's the wild west out there
Right :)
 
Apart from the vikings - apparently they DID get to newfoundland
before Columbus 'discovered' america; at least 500 years before!
Viking protocols!
Still we should try to get back to the ring
The corrupting influence of the ring
As in Tolkien & Wagner
But neither of them were philosophers;
It was an artistic/dramatic decision for the ring to corrupt its wearer.
Or was it
?
is it in the Republic hat the question is asked who will guard the guardians
I think thats an interesting question to ask together with the ring
Is there anything in D+G that touches upon this issue?
 
Well, there's becoming-imperceptible
And a lot about different kinds of secrets...
 
Surveillance & the paranoic - somehow go together
 
12:33 AM
That's right!
And it's the basic problem of society
That someone always wants to bug you
They can't leave us alone
 
Now they got robots calling us up!
well me!
 
It's a madhouse, Mozi
It's interesting, a lot of the economics data that drive economic forecasts and so on... are based phone surveys, which no one wants to answer any more
 
Maybe thats why the ancients were always pining for the pastoral
 
I think it's a very hominid thing
It is hard to reject as simply reactionary anyway
So much art comes from here; and it's in the wilderness, in the territory that you find art in its pure state
In the raw: animal territories are about gestures, colors, music
 
Well, with distance/time abolished one can become pastoral
 
12:36 AM
That's interesting
I think a lot of this stuff about surveillance does resolve to ethology
Questions about hominid behaviors: vigilance or grazing?
 
Whats ethology?
 
The study of animal behavior
 
Well we are animals
 
In pack/social animals, the animals at the edges of the group tend towards greater vigilance
Well, right... :)
Where those in the center tend to graze more often
Sometimes there's a regular rotation, and then some animals will of course "cheat" by just grazing all the time :)
 
The egg; soft centre; the hard outside
 
12:38 AM
Anyway, the question of security often seems to have just as many animal spirits beneath it as financial questions about the market; questions about herd motivations, vigilance and jitter, etc
Exactly!
Collective affects
 
The market is hugely aware of political instability ie human behaviour
 
How do we build antifragile systems over this chaos?
 
Its a question for the new millenium!
I think a return to the nomad and the village might be essential
Though how one can reform tremendous conurbations such as London is anyone guess
you could say they are a part of nature now
 
Refactor it into microservices :)
 
I think it was Iain Banks that wrote a whole series of SF novels
 
12:43 AM
Yes, they're brilliant
The Culture books
 
on the culture; where all the hard thinking was done by huge AI
 
Well, all the 'culture' was being created by AIs :)
 
with the kind of odd names that englishmen gives racing horses
 
They were the real protagonists, in the wake of which non-superintelligent actors were kind of randomly swept
It's really dark in a way
Human pets
It's approached very differently, as emancipation and utopia etc
But still there's not much world-historical room for non-AI actors, at least within the Culture
 
Asimov gestured towards that in the last few books of his foundation series
 
12:46 AM
Yeah, they got really weird towards the end; where he tries to tie together every fiction series he'd written up to that point in the span of about two novels
 
Yup; it became a soap-opera!
Like star-wars
 
But yeah there's a strange vision of a future "cosmic" intelligence
 
A sort of SF monism
 
Collective intelligence
 
Resurrecting God
 
12:47 AM
Yes, the 'third way' between Physical and Mental cultures that the series lays out
 
Its a pervasive theme in SF
Olaf stapledon visted it in Starmaker (not that I read it)
 
Me neither :)
 
I wouldn't be suprised if he was influenced by Hegel
Bildungsroman of the absolute spirit
What third way? Cyborg?
 
He claims that he writes Foundation kind of in a haze after reading Gibbon
And that he was lucky it checked in around 50k words :)
The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (sometimes shortened to Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire) is a book of history written by the English historian Edward Gibbon, which traces the trajectory of Western civilization (as well as the Islamic and Mongolian conquests) from the height of the Roman Empire to the fall of Byzantium. It was published in six volumes. Volume I was published in 1776 and went through six printings. Volumes II and III were published in 1781; volumes IV, V, and VI in 1788–89. The original volumes were published in quarto sections, a common publishing practice...
@MoziburUllah Oh, well Galaxia
 
Yeah, I think he did say that, after discussions with his editor - I forget his name, Campbell?
Galaxia?
 
12:50 AM
@MoziburUllah The "collective mind" route, as opposed to humans continuing down the road of 'normal' physics or 'mental' science (as the First and Second Foundation represent respectively)
 
We already are a collective mind, we just don't know it; its veiled from us
 
Imperceptible? :)
 
I'm always struck by how much of what I am was never invented by me
or thought up by me
Bang - there goes human creativity but not novelty.
Campbell almost got me into Dianetics
He said it was the next big thing.
Imperceptibly imperceptible :)
I think physicists are trying to return to normal physics after the multiverse hysteria.
Anyway they've broken up with the mathematicians
It was a shotgun marriage, beautiful whilst it lasted
 
1:33 AM
You're talking about supersymmetry too, I guess?
It's strange, I thought they'd found the Higgs signal, but everyone seems so apocalyptic about SUSY
 
String theory and all that jazz; 21st Century maths that fell into the 20th Century by accident - apparently - a nice bit of time travel
 
Aren't they still probing the Higgs sector? Looking for other superpartners? Trying to figure out other things?
@MoziburUllah what do you mean? :)
It's an anti-theory, travelling backwards from the future? :)
 
its a quote from witten - one of the stars of string theory :)
 
Ah, nice :)
 
no real time travel involved ;)
i think everyone was pretty sure about higgs
but susy has been big theoretical news since its invention in the 70s by Salam and others
It probably goes back earlier - like these tings usually do
its been important in quite a few different speculative theoretical advances
well string theory mainly :) & flavours of QFT
 
1:44 AM
sure
 
so no susy makes their theoretical ediface look a bit less secure
 
Since the 70s! How much SF will need to be rewritten...? :)
 
scifi :D
 
maybe they'll try a diferrent tack :).
 
1:46 AM
I wonder if there's not going to be a different kind of approach
Instead of GUTs, maybe more micro-theorems, or pre-theoretical stuff (constructor theory seems interesting in this context)
 
there already are quite a few different tacks around
sure; causal sets shuld interest you since they're very basic
and very physical too
einstein invented relativity with school mathematics
not even calculus
!
 
isn't it expressed in terms of tensors?
 
well you could do so
but the original paper isn't - i'm talking about the special theory
 
its essential for GR
 
1:50 AM
right :)
hard to even imagine without hilbert spaces i would think
 
But if you really want to impress some physicists if they're somewhere close
by; mention 'forms' not 'tensors';
they're the natural geometric object - gee maths sometime does help
!
 
'forms', cute :)
In the mathematical fields of differential geometry and tensor calculus, differential forms are an approach to multivariable calculus that is independent of coordinates. Differential forms provide a unified approach to defining integrands over curves, surfaces, volumes, and higher-dimensional manifolds. The modern notion of differential forms was pioneered by Élie Cartan. It has many applications, especially in geometry, topology and physics. For instance, the expression f(x) dx from one-variable calculus is called a 1-form, and can be integrated over an interval [a,b] in the domain of f: and...
 
at least they don't sound scary :)
 
Thats them.
Maxwells equations in the usual way they're written is a set of four equations
when they're written as forms theres just 2 and they look really simple too
 
1:54 AM
wild
!
 
And then you can just have the same equation but change the manifold
so electromagnetism on a donut
in 314 dimensions if you want
!
donut=ring
 
Hyperdonuts
 
so we get back to the ring :)
 
"Surveillance pastry"
 
yup :)
 
1:57 AM
Would you be ethical if you had an invisibility ring?
 
Ah...
Upto a certain point I think
 
I would be absolutely corrupt
 
I don't think I'd sneak into an airforce base
and set off a bomb
 
Well, that's good to know :)
 
would you?
 
1:59 AM
I mean, to me that's the point of the ring!
That it corrupts everyone, no one can resist the Gyges effect
 
Well, I think that there are degrees of corruptions
I don't think I'd resist the Gyges effect
 
I think Plato says something like: even Gods cannot resist this power (!)
 
Maybe thats why this planet is such a mess
 
Invisible cities
 
Yup.
Isn't that what happens in Wagners ring cycle?
I checked it briefly after you mentioned it
 
2:02 AM
I mean, maybe I'm overstating the important of Gyges for Wagner, but it does seem relevant
 
But now recall no details
 
The ring is fatal. That's why it appeals, I think, to a certain tragic frame of mind (Tolkein, &c)...
I mean, Der Ring is really dark. The ring just utterly destroys a bunch of mortals lives; the cycle ends with a suicide; etc.
 
The ring is fate;
all things tend to corruption; before renewal
even the entire universe in indian cosmology - kala yug
 
Yeah, the circularity is interesting; it does resonate with eternal return
 
I think i prefer that than the phase space dynamics of D+G expressing the same
I like the mythic dimension
 
2:06 AM
The "all things tend to corruption" -- it's the same nihilism we find in Aristotle ("time crumbles all things... everything is forgotten")
 
I thought Der Ring involved Gods, giants and dwarves
 
Or Ecclesiastes, of course :)
A long weary sigh...
> The plot revolves around a magic ring that grants the power to rule the world, forged by the Nibelung dwarf Alberich from gold he stole from the Rhine maidens in the river Rhine. With the assistance of the god Loge, Wotan – the chief of the gods – steals the ring from Alberich, but is forced to hand it over to the giants, Fafner and Fasolt in payment for building the home of the gods, Valhalla, or they will take Freia, who provides the gods with the golden apples that keep them young.
> Wotan's schemes to regain the ring, spanning generations, drive much of the action in the story. His grandson, the mortal Siegfried, wins the ring by slaying Fafner (who slew Fasolt for the ring) – as Wotan intended – but is eventually betrayed and slain as a result of the intrigues of Alberich's son Hagen, who wants the ring.
> Finally, the Valkyrie Brünnhilde – Siegfried's lover and Wotan's daughter who lost her immortality for defying her father in an attempt to save Siegfried's father Sigmund – returns the ring to the Rhine maidens as she commits suicide on Siegfried's funeral pyre, Hagen is drowned as he attempts to recover the ring. In the process, the gods and Valhalla are destroyed.
Der Ring des Nibelungen (The Ring of the Nibelung), WWV 86, is a cycle of four epic operas by the German composer Richard Wagner (1813–1883). The works are based loosely on characters from the Norse sagas and the Nibelungenlied. The composer termed the cycle a "Bühnenfestspiel" (stage festival play), structured in three days preceded by a Vorabend ("ante-evening"). It is often referred to as the Ring Cycle, Wagner's Ring, or simply the Ring. Wagner wrote the libretto and music over the course of about twenty-six years, from 1848 to 1874. The four operas that constitute the Ring cycle are, in sequence...
The ring brings twilight even to the reign of the Gods...
 
I think fate even ruled the greek gods too;
Freia the spirit of renewal
prophetic really as he'd written this before germany went up in flames in WW2.
 
Yes. There's a whole other layer of darkness around Wagner...
 
I only like the flight of the bumblebee
er valkyries
 
2:13 AM
:)
I mean, again, I think Nietzsche is the one who 'reads' the ring, if that makes sense
The one through whose lenses it can be properly evaluated
Who can gauge the depth of its Greek sense
 
in what way?
 
So in the Republic the question motivates a discussion about value-construction
About evaluating and creating new social and moral values
 
and valuye-sustaining
 
Yes -- there's a deep transvaluation here that of course is profoundly reactionary, in some sense
He was a critic of democracy
But then so is Nietzsche!
Aristocrats will know one another :)
The most intimate critique of Plato is possible with Nietzsche; of the polis-apparatus which has structured modern culture, our militarized communities, our surveilled consciousnesses
 
Lenin was an aristocrat
 
2:19 AM
Is a social democrat really an aristocrat in this sense?
I mean artistocracy as active politics, not a class marker
(If that is even a coherent distinction? It may not be!)
 
Aristocracries are dynamic until they stabilise & secure themselves
 
(At any rate, Nietzsche seems uniquely positioned as a vector for reading Plato's ring)
 
I meant Lenin was an aristocrat in the Tsarist regime; but carry on; it was just an aside to show I'm with you.
 
@MoziburUllah Well, sure.
Oh well, I'm not sure I have too much more -- it was really just that Nietzsche is an especially sensitive reader of Plato, sensitive to his language and spirit, and the spirit of his time
I'd be very curious if there are remarks about Gyges
 
Was the birth of tragedy his first book?
 
2:23 AM
I think so
 
> Lenin's father, Ilya Nikolayevich Ulyanov, came from a serf background but had studied physics and maths at Kazan State University, going to teach at the Penza Institute for the Nobility.[8] He was introduced to Maria Alexandrovna Blank; they married in the summer of 1863.[9] Hailing from a relatively prosperous background, Maria was the daughter of a Russian Jewish physician, Alexander Dmitrievich Blank, and his German-Swedish wife, Anna Ivanovna Grosschopf.
Not exactly aristocratic!
And hello.
 
Hello?
:)
Hey Cerbie!!
Yay!
 
Ok bourgeois :).
Hi @cerberus
Anyone studying physics is aristocratic to my mind anyway :)
 
Maths is for serfs :)
So combined da two.
 
2:27 AM
mathematical physics?
 
Another sublation!
 
@MoziburUllah Psah!
Yay!
 
Looks like these german philological-philosophers preferred plato to aristotle
Heidegger & Neitzsche
Maybe they plato played with his language better
 
I once did a course on Plato & Kierkegaard.
 
how did they fit together
?
 
2:34 AM
Fairly well, I seemed to remember.
But it was so long ago I remember little.
And the parts we read were too esoteric for my taste anyway...
 
K has a nice line in titles
Thats all I remember
We're discussing the Ring of Gyges, or were
invisible cities
imperceptibilities
 
Would you be ethical if you had an invisibility ring?
 
Sure, depending on what you did with it!
 
what happens if the ring granted you eternal youth too?
 
@Cerberus I mean, who could avoid corruption?
@MoziburUllah young people are already invisible; no effect
That's Tolkein's ring you're talking about now :)
 
2:42 AM
Did tolkies ring give immortaility?
Every millenia you become a bit more corrupt than the previous one...
Actually I think I'd be like a Greek God
by turns ethical
and by other turns irascible
human but on a larger scale
 
@JosephWeissman Ask Sauron!
 
Sauron went over to the dark side
Wasn't he a good wizard once - i read the series long ago and in a different galaxy
 
But the ring did not corrupt him to the good cause. He remained loyal to his own cause.
Yes, well, he was a Maia, and as such created "good" by Illuvatar.
Like Morgoth, who was a Vala.
 
Is that from the silmarillion?
 
Yes. Just from Tolkien's lore in general, but creation and the early history of earth is in the Silmarillion.
 
2:48 AM
Ah, so the ring does corrupt him
But why was tolkiens ring so malevolent?
 
Sauron was long corrupted already, I think
 
Before he created the ring, which was explicitly with malicious intent
 
that bit is coming back to me.
 
I think! :)
 
2:50 AM
well it sounds familiar ;)
 
Sauron was a lieutenant of Melkor/Morgoth for a long time before he was "the" dark lord
I think it took the Valar getting involved, and banishing Melkor again?
Sauron was imprisoned in Numenor for some reason, but ended up kind of sweet talking everyone and becoming an advisor to the king
I'm not sure I can recall much more
(Melkor was a bad guy, he creates the orcs by corrupting elves)
 
Tolkien came up with some nice names.
 
The worlds are almost an excuse for him to use the language :)
 
Are orcs a tolkien invention?
 
I think sometimes
@MoziburUllah Yes, I think so! I'm not sure though
 
2:53 AM
Yeah, he was a norse scholar
Actually is that ring story in the norse sagas?
 
Yeah, wiki was talking about that
The Nibelungenlied, translated as The Song of the Nibelungs, is an epic poem in Middle High German. The story tells of dragon-slayer Siegfried at the court of the Burgundians, how he was murdered, and of his wife Kriemhild's revenge. The Nibelungenlied is based on pre-Christian Germanic heroic motifs (the "Nibelungensaga"), which include oral traditions and reports based on historic events and individuals of the 5th and 6th centuries. Old Norse parallels of the legend survive in the Völsunga saga, the Prose Edda, the Poetic Edda, the Legend of Norna-Gest, and the Þiðrekssaga. In 2009, the three...
 
ok, I guessed that tolkien took his ring from plato - but this is probably the right source for him too.
 
I mean, it kind of multiplies the problem to my mind
 
in what way?
 
Well, if it can be interpreted according to Gyges or according to the Song of the Nibelungs... :)
I guess the question is rather can it be read according to some virtual synthesis of both
(And other elements possibly as well...)
 
2:57 AM
Well Gyges is indefinite and Nibelung is definite
Gyges is a question and Nibelung is a statement
 
They both seem definite to my mind, but that's obvs just my feeling :)
Tolkein as well; I mean these guys have read Plato, at the very least...
Would be the simplest way to say this; Plato's shadow is huge
 
You'd think so
Neo-platonism was big in the uk, and no doubt in Germany with all that
rampant romanticsm
 
I'm guessing though
mostly
 
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