Japanese Language - 2014-06-07

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Anonymous

12:07 AM

I've now seen people call things subjects when marked with just about everything :-)

Anonymous

が of course, and の (usually in relative clauses), and に (dative subject constructions), は (by those folks who don't understand the difference between 格助詞 and 係助詞), から (Tanaka's ablative subject construction), で (Martin's "group subject" as in 二人で話す), zero

Anonymous

Am I missing anything? :-)

Anonymous

Oh yeah, を in exceptional case marking.

@EiríkrÚtlendi I think that "consent" being a slang for "concentric plug" was a red herring...

Or a green bream...

12:26 AM

@snailboat Do you know how to get links for comments?

Anonymous

@Earthliŋ Click the timestamp

Ah...

Thanks

Anonymous

(If your browser doesn't escape the resulting URI when you copy it, strip out any Japanese characters because SE will choke on the link)

Anonymous

(That's for our Safari users such as Tim :-)

=)

I use vimperator

Anonymous

12:28 AM

Yay!

Anonymous

I don't know anything about that, but it has vim in the name, so I like it.

But yanking the URL keeps the Japanese characters

Anonymous

I think at one point I knew something about it, but it left my skull when I tried to cram in more etymological details :-)

Anonymous

I can only fit so much in my brain!

so I have to copy and paste by hand (in Firefox)

@snailboat =)

@snailboat You can always fit more

Anonymous

12:30 AM

I'm trying! :-)

Anonymous

The part of the URL with Japanese characters is ignored by the server (well, mostly)

Anonymous

You can just erase it and the URL will still work

that's curious

Anonymous

http://japanese.stackexchange.com/q/11013/#comment36739_11014

Anonymous

Like so!

12:31 AM

right

I actually believe that humans have a "foreign language drawer" and any non-native-level foreign language is replaced by any new language learned.

Anonymous

Hah!

At least for active vocabulary

I used to speak basic French. I tried speaking French 3 months after arriving in Japan. Only Japanese came out of my mouth...

I still read French, but all my active French has been replaced by Japanese...

Anonymous

I have too many ling papers on my hard drive :-(

Anonymous

I'm trying to sort them :-)

Anonymous

Take that, Stative Verbs and the Progressive Aspect in English!

12:34 AM

Into categories?

Good luck!

Eiríkr Útlendi

@Earthliŋ -- yep, "consent" was fishy, but "concentric plug" / "concentric outlet" does appear to be valid non-bogus English, making コンセント a likely abbreviation rather than Japanese invention.

Oh, I replied in the comments

Eiríkr Útlendi

re: languages, research into neural network programming as an analog to the brain has pointed out some interesting similarities.

for monolinguals, all other languages go into that other drawer.

@EiríkrÚtlendi Do you call パトカー和製英語 or a "straightforward abbreviation" (or a "non-straightforward abbreviation")? — Earthliŋ 53 secs ago

Eiríkr Útlendi

If someone succeeds in creating a functional second drawer, things that aren't mother tongue initially still get filed into that second drawer.

If someone succeeds at differentiating non-mother-tongue data enough to create a third drawer,

later language acquisition is much easier, as the internal filing system infrastructure is in place.

Anonymous

12:42 AM

Hmm. That seems like a straightforward regularization/abbreviation of patrol car, but around here we're more likely to say police car

Eiríkr Útlendi

and パトカー would not be straight abbreviation, nor is it natural as English.

"concentric plug" > "concent / consent" is just shortening.

i.e. straightforward abbreviation.

plus, the short form コンセント and the long form "concentric plug" still mean the same thing.

i.e., i'd view パトカー as 和製英語, and コンセント as 省略 / abbreviation.

Anonymous

Japanese regularly abbreviates phrases (most typically) by taking the first two morae of each word ([パト]ロール・[カー], [ファミ]リー[コン]ピュータ) or the first and last two morae, so there's nothing exceptional about it as an abbreviation

Eiríkr Útlendi

Sure, but that makes it very Japanese, as opposed to just the shortening of a word / phrase.

Anonymous

Well, the shortening happens after the loan regularization, so it's already a Japanese word when it occurs

Eiríkr Útlendi

sure

with regard to the original English, though, it's wholly unrecognizable in a way that's categorically different than "concentric plug" > "concent"

I might accept someone saying "concent" as short for "concentric plug",

but (without knowledge of Japanese) I sure wouldn't recognize "pasokon" or even "persocom".

if "concentric plug" became コンセプラ, that would be full-on Japanese-style 和製英語.

12:51 AM

How about メタボ, just an abbreviation or 和製英語? =)

[]

Eiríkr Útlendi

Abbreviated 外来語

for メタボ

OK

Eiríkr Útlendi

和製英語 for スマホ

See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasei_eigo --

Confusion with Gairaigo[edit]

Wasei-eigo is often confused with gairaigo, which is simply loanwords or “words from abroad”. The main contributor to this confusion is that many gairaigo words derived from English are mistaken for wasei-eigo due to the phonological and morphological transformation they undergo to suit Japanese phonology and syllabary. These transformations often result in truncated (or "backclipped") words and words with extra vowels inserted to accommodate to the Japanese mora syllabic structure.[15] Wasei-eigo, on the other hand, is the re-working of and experimentation wi…

Emphasis on this part:

"Wasei-eigo, on the other hand, is the re-working of and experimentation with these words that result in an entirely novel meaning as compared to the original intended meaning."

スタバる would definitely fit this.

Anonymous

Yeah, like ゴーサイン or カンニング

But wouldn't スマホ be 外来語, then?

Eiríkr Útlendi

12:54 AM

スマホ・パトカー etc. are less of this since the meanings aren't so altered, but they still exhibit specifically Japanese changes.

Anonymous

@EiríkrÚtlendi Hmm. That's a verb derived from a 外来語 base. I don't think of it as 和製英語

@EiríkrÚtlendi You just said you did...

Eiríkr Útlendi

I can certainly see your angle there. Sure, maybe that's not a good example.

=)

Eiríkr Útlendi

now I'm getting confused -- said I did what?

12:55 AM

"和製英語 for スマホ"

10 lines later "I don't think of it as 和製英語"

Eiríkr Útlendi

yes, I still say スマホ is 和製英語, in that the word form is so reworked.

Anonymous

和製英語 is most useful as a description when you talk about Japanese learners of English who perceive words as being the same as English, and are surprised when they use them in English and are misunderstood

Anonymous

That's how I've conceptualized it

Anonymous

Which is to say, it's 和製英語 because they treat it mentally like 英語, even though it's 和製

Eiríkr Útlendi

aha, that's coming at it from the other direction

Anonymous

12:57 AM

Whereas with スマートフォン, I think there's an awareness that it's an abbreviation

@snailboat That's nice

Anonymous

This is a nice video showing how to write hiragana, for future reference

Anonymous

Darius Jahandarie

2:22 AM

@Earthliŋ Let me guess, for reading Grothendieck or something? :P

Anonymous

2:52 AM

I managed to sort through every paper in my download directory and give the ones I wanted to keep proper filenames.

Anonymous

That may have taken more time than I should have spent on it :-)

3:10 AM

@Choko 慢性副鼻腔炎

Anonymous

Oh, no!

Anonymous

How are you feeling?

I feel ok, but the stuffiness and coughing has continued for 2 weeks now

despite medication

Anonymous

Oh! Feel better! ;-(

6:02 AM

@ssb おお・・・お大事に。。。

6:55 AM

「アルバイト」も和製英語っていうんですかね・・・

ドイツ語だけど

Anonymous

和製ドイツ語？

だよね～

和製漢語、っていうのもあるし

7:35 AM

user image

Anonymous

I guess 徳(国) is Germany in Chinese? I didn't know that

Anonymous

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4605

Anonymous

8:14 AM

Oh, sad, our questions/day dropped back below 5

1:38 PM

@DariusJahandarie I didn't know Grothendieck published in Japanese ;)

Darius Jahandarie

2:28 PM

@Earthliŋ I meant the part about reading French :P

And the answer is: Yes, of course =)

3:23 PM

user image

まじ？？？

まさかぁ・・・

I'm sure it was snailcar

nandasorewa wwww

=)

Moderators have the ability to edit out offensive material from user profiles...

I'm not sure I'd call it "hacking" though

ああ、なるほどね

Obviously I don't know if that is what happened...

3:56 PM

他のフォーラムのアカウントのプロフィールにも、同じメッセージが書かれていますね。

Grilled sexual harassment... セクハラ焼き。

ドイツ風かぁ…どんな食べ物だろう。。。

独より徳のほうが、なんとなく、イメージが良いよね

フランスも、仏より、法のほうが・・・

アメリカも、米より美のほうが。。。

Anonymous

@Choko Hehe, I think they just misunderstood how the site worked after people edited their answers

Anonymous

I don't think anyone edited their profile but I don't really know (it was before I was a moderator)

Anonymous

4:42 PM

@Earthliŋ Seriously? 爾 → ン?　That's one heck of a simplification :-)

4:53 PM

Yeah, well I found several sites listing 爾 as source... No idea where they got this from.

I also don't see where the ン is. The stroke order seems just wrong...

Anonymous

I remember reading an offhand comment in Labrune that we didn't know where that kana came from, and I was surprised because I thought we did! :-)

Anonymous

After all, Wikipedia declares that it's from something in particular, and doesn't couch it in terms like "maybe possibly kinda"

Anonymous

At least on the main chart

Anonymous

Wait, this is all different from what I remember :-)

Anonymous

Ahh, my memories are probably all mixed up :-)

Anonymous

5:04 PM

English Wikipedia has a chart someone made, but they don't cite any sources as far as I can see

Darius Jahandarie

11:36 PM

こんにちは。

今日春祭りに行ったんだけど、あんまり日本関係のブースはなかった。

４−５ぐらいかな。

でも日本人いっぱいいたので楽しかったｗ。リスニングとスピーキング力はいつも下手だけど。

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