« first day (1057 days earlier)      last day (3659 days later) » 

1:25 AM
Anyone on chat?
 
 
3 hours later…
4:45 AM
no
 
 
2 hours later…
6:23 AM
lol
I have a question
Here the OP says he's going to use the translation for a pendant, I think japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/13722/…
and here he mentions some kind of program japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/15537/…
そのプログラムは、どうペンダントと関係する?
よく分からないです
 
 
3 hours later…
9:43 AM
Hello folks! Is anyone around?
 
Of the mods here, I think I'm the only one that's close to Tokyo
I'm sure several of our members are up there though
 
I'll be in Tokyo speaking at Qcon on April 30th, if anyone wants to meet up, tell me
 
Interesting timing... mid-golden week
browses through the qcontokyo site for a bit
 
Tim
10:14 AM
@Chocolate Hi Chocolate. This is only my guess but perhaps the engraving is done by machine not hand and it contains Computer Aided Design (CAD) program to direct the lather (or whatever it is that does the cutting).
Actually I had a question on Dave MGs OP for the sentence:
当時母がどんな気持ちだったのか、子どもの私には知るべくもないことだった
(It takes while to get rid of the furigana)
Am I not right in thinking that 知るべく is the noun form in the same way the 近く is the noun form in 近くにある?
 
By CAD? That sounds plausible :D
 
Tim
...In which case it the phrase 知るべくもない functions grammatically the same way as expressions such as 知るはずもない or 知るわけもない?
 
I don't think so. I think it means 知るべからず, but this form is not used now.
 
Tim
Actually what you said convinced me more I might be right:
 
-_-||
 
Tim
10:27 AM
知るべからず is formed from 知るべく and あらず、
あらず combines with adjectives in their noun/く form. (I asked a question related to this, here is the link)
8
Q: Origin of あしからず

TimCould somebody explain the origin of あしからず , as found in the following expressions? 今回はお断りしますが,どうぞあしからず| This time I have to say no, I hope you don't mind. ・・ですが、 悪しからず。| I'm sorry but..... パーティーに伺えませんがあしからず| I'm sorry, but I can't come to the party. The kanji is 悪しからず so ...

 
Isn't inserting もbetween くandないpretty common? There is no reason it must be a noun.
 
Tim
that is fair point, occurred to me too but i am trying to look at it dfferently..
 
Some 連用形 expressing location and time sometimes become noun/adverbs. 遠く、近く
 
Tim
btw, just in case, the reason i said you convinced me a bit more was because あらず would combine (grammatically) with the noun form 近くto give 近からず
@YangMuye right , and as noun/adverbs they function in a similar way to はず and わけ
 
It's interesting that 近くない does not equal 近くにない
 
Tim
10:38 AM
Where as 近くない・近い is function as adjective, with a kind of "spectrum" to it, as in you can be closer by "Degrees", in "chikaku ni aru " we are just saying that the subject exists in the near vicinity, it is defined, there is no continuum (spectrum?) if you get my drift
 
Well, I think nouns of time and location are more or less used adverbially. くis said to mean ところ.
 
Tim
I agree, ところ is definite thing, or noun
 
So you can say all く are nouns. But it's a little weird, isn't it? You don't say 近くがない
 
Aren't く adverbs?
 
Tim
Yang Muye: grammatically I think it works but I've never heard it said and cannot think why one would
@Szymon There are all sorts of discussion on this website about what are adverbs (so perhaps we should keep away from that) but in 近くにある the 近く is a considered a noun.
Anyway, what I was trying to get at is that in the Op's sentence, the item before the "、” is the topic, the subject is marked by も (as an alternative to が、in the same way we can say はず も/が ない) and the phrase 子どもの私には知るべくもない is grammatically the same as 「私には記憶がない」
It seems to make sense to me, if you look at the sentence wholistically
So I thought I'd share here to see if there is something wrong in my logic...
 
10:54 AM
Some dictionaries have べくもない as one set phrase but I'm not sure if it matters.
 
I think it better to have it as a set phrase.
 
Tim
I think we can use it as the set phrase it is but I was looking at the whole sentence. There was some discussion about what was the topic in the sentence and the function of the に and the は
To understand the sentence we need to identify the other parts such as the subject.
 
I have been looking for how to find out the topic(主題) of a sentence for years. Unfortunately, I haven't found.
So I gave up.
 
Tim
what is the difficulty (if it is not a dumb question)
 
Linguists seem to agree there is 主題 in Japanese, but they don't agree if a part is a 主題 in particular cases.
 
Tim
11:03 AM
I am sorry I don't follow the last part of your sentence
 
Sentences with べき often follow the pattern like in 約束は守るべきだ. Isn't this sentence similar with は dropped and marked with 、instead?
 
Tim
That is what I think - ie A、Bことだ。〜 AはBことだ。...but so I am interested to understand Yang Muye's view which might be different
 
Um? Just to clarify, I think [それは]、[子供の私には]、知るべくもないことだ, if we agree there must be at most one 主題 in a sentence (which I personally don't think so), then 子供の私には is not the topic.
 
I agree it's not the topic
I think you said before は is contrastive/emphasis marker. Was it you?
 
As for if [子供の私には] is an adverb of ことだ or an adverb 知るべくもない, I'm a little unsure. But I think it can be viewed either way.
I also think には is not a separable unit. I first though it was に+は, but later I thought it's better to keep it as a single unit. Anyway, に、に+は、には has some continuity.
 
Tim
11:15 AM
Not sure about calling it an adverb (scrub round that one?) but if こと links to the phrase 〜のか、, then does the phrase ~には have to link to the expression being modified (~べくもない)
 
Intuitively, には is top-level. See my comment.
@dainichi, In fact I first thought 子供の私には might be top-level, too. But 知るべくもない is similar to 分からない, which makes me believe it should be in a clause. But after some thinking, it seems that this には doesn't require negative or potential forms. After some searching, I found I'm not the only one who mixed them up. Some people believe the に in ~に~できる functions the same as にとって, which etymologically should not. It becomes unclear to me whether 私には分からないことだ should be parsed as に + は or には. Now, I'm somewhat convinced that it might be better to think 子供の私には to be lop-level. — Yang Muye 2 days ago
Sometimes it's not obvious if a phrase belongs to the main clause or not. e.g. some people suggest that the 私は in 私は見たことがある belongs to 見た rather than ない, because 私に見たことがない(こと) is impossible. But this is very counterintuitive. Sometimes はization(topicalization) promotes a phrase in a subordinate clause to a higher scope. The same thing happens with と. “それとは別のものだ”, I feel とは is somewhat top-level, which is parallel to “それとは違っている” — Yang Muye 2 days ago
 
Tim
It is not a very clear phrase without the は (so perhaps there is an arguement to say we must have it. ) the phrase 子どもに知るべくもない seems to work in the same way that my earlier phrase, 私には記憶がない does...(although if written it might be a bit strange without the は)
 
I can't any examples of "に知るべくもない”, while I can find many of ”*に分からない” “*にない”. So they might be different.
I think には is sometimes similar to は when it's used in the main clause. e.g. 私は、別にいい。
 
Tim
Intuitively, I would not expect you to find any: the sentence we are looking at would also be strange without the は
but to my non-linguist non-native intuition,
 
The usage of は is always a mystery to me.
 
Tim
11:28 AM
i have not seen a phrase ~ni~ga~wakaru without a は
 
本当?
 
@YangMuye Can't agree more!
 
Tim
perhaps i am spacing here?
 
お前に何がわかる
:D
 
Tim
any more?
i am not that perturbed by the sentence, it was only tonight i began to think they had to go together after reading your comments..
actually what i was going to say was:
when the ni-wa appears, the ni still seems to be functions as ni and the wa
functions as the contrastive-wa
 
11:35 AM
I can't think of many ~ni~ga~wakaru, but I think think of many ~ni~wakaru. 子供に分かるように伝えてください。
 
Tim
@YangMuye but v droll never the less.,
good - we are not that far apart then
 
In fact, I believe topic-ha are all contrastive.
 
Tim
ah - sorry i have to go but nice chatting to you both
 
bye
 
see you
 
12:04 PM
I was once asked a strange question about Chinese. The question was about Chinese, but I try will translate it into a Japanese counterpart, so the Japanese is not just the translation of the original question.
A learner asked me about the usege of a Chinese particle which is similar to Japanese は/こそ. Why it is used in 今日[は]きれいだね? I can't explain why that particle is used. The dictionary says it's used to "stress"(取り立て), but I don't feel I'm stressing. The particle just need to be used there no matter you want to stress or not.
After thinking for I few days, I finally understood that The particle is contrasitive. It's because of the word "今日" is special. If 今日 is not special, you won't even say it. e.g. we don't say ここでは、きれいだね. 今月は、きれいだね. We have some common knowledge that people may wear different dresses each day. So 今日 is chosed, not 今月, 今年, ここ, etc.
It seems that every word is useful. If it's not useful, we won't even say it. Similarly, we say ここは寒い because we know the weather may be different in different places. You don't say ここは嬉しい. You say 今日は寒い because you know the weather may be different in different time. You won't say 今日は大きい. You say バラの棘は痛い, but you won't say 今日は痛い.
So are these は only topic-ha or contrast-ha? I think they can be both.

I suddenly realized sometimes は is used not because you intentionally contrast something, just because you subconsciously treat them differently.
 
12:45 PM
@YangMuye what's the Chinese particle?
 
The other day I came to the conclution that I was retarded, after just having realized that 行く does not conjugate like a regular godan.
 
1:09 PM
@Flaw “可”
 
1:42 PM
@snailboat I still don't remember the paper, but I happened to find this article, which says the long form should not be used with 笑う.
@ssb you may also want to read it.
 
2:23 PM
@YangMuye I thought that meant "considerably"
as in the case of "今天可熱 "?
 
2:53 PM
@Flaw It has many meanings. If you just say 今天可熱, I would think it's a slightly archaic form to say “今日は暑かったか?”. You may say 今天可真熱(今日は本当に暑いな), then you think today is “unusually” hot. “Considerably” is implied by “unusually”. Compare it with 今天可不行(今日は行けない)今天可要努力(今日こそ頑張らなきゃ). But in Chinese, 可 is much stronger than Japanese は and こそ. 今天可不行 makes people think today is a special day for you.
@Flaw Oh, in some dialects 可 means very. You might be speaking such a dialect.
 

« first day (1057 days earlier)      last day (3659 days later) »