Japanese Language

9:31 AM

I'm not sure what to make of translation questions all being acknowledged as off topic, but still getting answers in the comments

Part of me says "who cares" but part of me thinks it defeats the purpose of calling it off topic

3 hours later…

12:29 PM

@ssb I think it sends the message "we don't really want to do translation questions". I don't think I have come across a single poster, who just ignored that his translation request was closed and then posted a new off-topic question, hoping to get an answer in the comments.

12:54 PM

I guess that would be effective enough..

Doesn't seem to be any issue with repeat offenders after all

1:04 PM

@ssb Off-topic questions should not be answered at all. If they are answered in comments, OP gets what they want. Other people can see that too and start asking similar questions...

I generally follow that line of thinking and don't answer these requests

Do other people answer them?

Yeah, most translation requests that get closed I think have an answer in the comments

Well, from what I've seen so far it's not like JLSE is flooded with off-topic translation requests... But maybe I'm wrong.

1:22 PM

Have to go, see everyone later!

1:34 PM

Yeah it's not that big of a problem

2 hours later…

Chocolate

3:20 PM

@Earthliŋ いいですね～いや…ドイツに比べたら…いいのかな・・・わからないけど

ドイツの方がご飯美味しそうな気も・・

@Earthliŋ じゃ、「サランラップ」は

cling film?

綿棒は　cotton swab? cotton bud?

Cling filmってアメリカ人に言ったら笑われた

Aga って言ったら「なにそれ」って言われた

ドイツにもAgaってあったのかな

Anonymous

3:55 PM

@Chocolate Aga? What's that? :-)

Anonymous

6:31 PM

@Earthliŋ bunka.go.jp/kokugo_nihongo/joho/kijun/naikaku/okurikana/…

Anonymous

There are some general rules. I don't think it's much of a stretch to apply them to 顕れる・顕われる

Anonymous

At least it could be answered for 現れる・現われる

Anonymous

7:09 PM

I just left a comment, but I'll put it here too, since I think it's a fun topic for discussion:

Anonymous

There are multiple diagnostics for subjecthood in Japanese. See The Oxford Handbook of Japanese Linguistics, pp.142-145 for three tests which show that the "nominative object" in 〜が好きだ is not a subject, along with some arguments that it is in fact an object. — snailboat ♦ 4 mins ago

Anonymous

@ssb I answered one recently in a comment, and then I deleted the question once they acknowledged the answer

Anonymous

I don't think we have a big problem with repeat offenders in that regard

Anonymous

japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/15362/…

Anonymous

If they'd come into chat, probably the same thing would have happened: they'd get their answer and there'd be no question on the site

7:30 PM

@snailboat So, there's a recommendation for 顕れる, but 顕われる is allowed as well. That's interesting.

Anonymous

7:44 PM

@Earthliŋ Well, I left a comment on his question to that effect after he deleted it

Hm... I blame it on Google

There are so many questions with comments "don't trust Google counts", but still people use it as corpus

He could have asked "why are both versions used?" or something like that

Anonymous

It's potentially useful information, but it's hard to get anything out of their result estimates, since even the order of magnitude is suspect

Anonymous

Sometimes it gives you negative confirmation: if you can find ZERO results of something, it's probably not very common :-)

Anonymous

In that case, Google results can be useful

Usually an order of magnitude of orders of magnitude...

Anonymous

7:50 PM

They'll probably never be an entire googol off, though ;-)

How many orders of magnitudes of orders of magnitudes is one googol?

Anonymous

I'm not certain of the etymology, but I think including the わ historically made sense because it was formerly inflectional

Anonymous

Like, ある　→　あら＋ふ　→　あら＋は＋れる

Did you know that 叱 is not a 3-byte unicode character?

I ran into a problem with my database...

Anonymous

But that etymology might be wrong... I can't find anything reliable to back it up

Anonymous

7:57 PM

@Earthliŋ 3-byte meaning in its UTF-8 form?

yes

Anonymous

What about e5 8f b1 ?

Anonymous

When I echo -n 叱 | hexdump -C I get e5 8f b1

Anonymous

That look like three bytes of UTF-8 to me

Anonymous

8:00 PM

unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=53F1

Hm...

In my database, I used utf8 encoding

But I can't enter 叱 into the database...

Anonymous

Do you know why not?

Warning: #1366 Incorrect string value: '\xF0\xA0\xAE\x9F' for column 'kanji' at row 1

I don't know why, yet

Hm...

Anonymous

𠮟 and 叱 are different

Oh...

What's the first one?

Anonymous

8:05 PM

dictionary.sanseido-publ.co.jp/wp/2009/12/17/shikaru

It's wrong on this page, then: ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

I imported the database from there...

Anonymous

Here's the official list (HTML): bunka.go.jp/kokugo_nihongo/joho/kijun/naikaku/kanji/…

Anonymous

Does it have the same glyph?

Anonymous

Yes, it does

Anonymous

On the actual 常用漢字表 (PDF version) it says:

Anonymous

8:09 PM

> (4)に掲げる「𠮟」と「叱」は本来別字とされるが,その使用実態から見て,異体の関係にある同字と認めることができる。

Anonymous

(4) illustrate the difference (the crossing diagonal stroke on the right half)

So, is it using the wrong glyph there?

Anonymous

Is this the same difference between 七 and 匕?

Anonymous

Well, if both are recognized as alternative forms of the same character, then neither is really wrong, is it?

Anonymous

Even if they were originally different

Anonymous

8:11 PM

Still, you should set up your database to allow code points that take four characters in UTF-8, probably

Maybe...

I'm still new to everything, so I'll have to figure out how to...

𠮟 and 叱 should have different stroke direction

Anonymous

Yeah, the one based on 七 starts that stroke from the left, and the one based on 化 starts the stroke from the right

Anonymous

Looking at them in chat, it's hard for me to tell which is supposed to be which...

Yeah. In my font only the 口偏 is different (which I guess it shouldn't be). In any case, it doesn't help in knowing which is which...

Anonymous

Yeah, I'm glad they're both being treated as the same character these days :-)

Anonymous

8:21 PM

Speaking of which, can you guess which is which out of 七 and 匕? :-)

I think 叱 is ヒ

and the other one is 七

Anonymous

Maybe I should have typed all three.

Anonymous

七匕 and ヒ

Anonymous

Hee, hee, hee.

The difference between those three I can see quite clearly

Anonymous

8:23 PM

Uh-huh

(Or are you asking something different?)

I'm lost, sorry

Anonymous

I was just having fun. Other times when I've typed 七 and 匕 to people, they thought they were both しち :-)

Oh...

I guess the difference between 叱 and 𠮟 is something to be aware of when searching a corpus

Anonymous

I guess so.

Anonymous

Um.

Anonymous

8:30 PM

I searched for 叱 in 少納言 and got some reasonable number of results, then I tried 𠮟 to see, and it gave me results for .

Yeah, I saw. That's strange

Anonymous

Maybe they can't handle characters outside the BMP

But then 𠮟 is supposedly the same character (or rather a variant), even the character of choice for whatever official link you gave above...

Oh well...

Anonymous

There were some weird choices for variants on the 常用漢字表, particularly in the 2010 updates

Anonymous

Like 塡 is the official kanji on the list, rather than 填 (which everyone had been using)

Anonymous

8:36 PM

The latter is listed as a variant

Anonymous

Another one is 剝 rather than 剥

Anonymous

8:51 PM

Oh, and 頰 versus 頬

Anonymous

But it looks like 塡剝 and 頰 are all in the BMP

Anonymous

So I guess 𠮟 is the odd one out