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6:36 AM
@snailboat I guess so, but calling it a phrase is simpler than "a combination of kanji", and "word" could be misleading for beginners. I certainly found it misleading! — AJFarmar 7 mins ago
This user believes referring to 日本 as a "word" is misleading, but referring to it as a "phrase" is not
I don't really want to draw out a discussion in comments...
I'm really curious what would make "word" more misleading than "phrase", though
I think it lexicalized over a thousand years ago
(I'm not sure it could ever have been called a phrase, but at some point it did at least become a word)
 
6:49 AM
日本語の、word と phrase の違いがいまいちわからん・・・
ここを ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8F%A5 読んでも、日本語じゃなく、英語についての話みたい
でもまあ「日本」は語やと思うなあ
「日本」が名詞句です、って、ちょっとしんどい
 
7:10 AM
I think defining word can be hard in English too
Is each other one word or two? Well, it has a space in it...
But you can't put anything in between
(In Middle English you could!)
 
7:31 AM
二字熟語だから、ってことですかね・・・。じゃ、「奈良」「大阪」「渋谷」とかの固有名詞も、「佐藤」「太郎」とかの名前もぜんぶphrase になるわけで
う~んって感じ
San Jose とか Los Angeles とかはどうなってるんだろ
New York とか
 
8:14 AM
Still, it never occurred to me that someone might think 日+本 was syntax rather than morphology...
The other day someone told me いい子 should be considered one word
I guess people will keep surprising me :-)
 
ドイツ語の複合名詞はwordとphraseどちらなんでしょうね
あれはスペースで区切られてるし、wordってことで迷う余地はないのか
日本だと小学校の国語で「この文を単語・文節で区切りましょう」ってやった記憶があります
 
9:14 AM
Ah, I think that's based on 橋本文法 :-) I think he had the idea that the 文節 was the most important unit in syntax
Dividing phonological phrases by looking for where you can put 「ね」「な」「さ」
But I don't think that notion is too much in modern linguistics
I do think pitch accent can give us a hint as to whether something is a word or a phrase
 
 
3 hours later…
11:48 AM
学校文法(がっこうぶんぽう)とは、現代日本の学校教育において、国語教育の際に準拠している文法のことである。教科(書)文法、文部省文法などとも呼ばれる。普通は現代日本語の文法を指す(本項で詳述する)が、古典(文語体)の文法も含む。教養教育(職業訓練でない学校教育)での外国語の文法についていうこともある。 == 概説 == 学校文法は橋本文法をベースとしている(経緯は#歴史の節を参照)。 橋本文法と同様に、文を可能な限り句切ったものとして文節を定め(さらに細かい単位に「語」があるが、詳細はここでは略す)、品詞を名詞・動詞・形容詞・形容動詞・副詞・連体詞・感動詞・接続詞・助詞・助動詞の10種(または名詞を名詞と代名詞に分けて11種)に分類する。 しかし、学校文法について詳細までを議論した大系といったようなものはなく、原典(注: 学校文法の、であって橋本文法の、ではない)と言える『中等文法』を基とし、学習指導要領をはじめとする告示や検定教科書他各種教科書・参考書・学習用辞書に書かれている内容(実際のところ揺れがある)の総体が「学校文法」というものである、としか言えず、例えば常用漢字や現代仮名遣いのように明確に定義されているものではない。 == 歴史 == 1943年、文部省は国定教科書『中等文法』を編纂した。これの指導にあたったのが橋本進吉であり、高弟の岩淵悦太郎が執筆を担当した。このため...
学校文法・・・
@snailboat まさにそれが印象に残っていますが、「文節」を意識することなんてそれっきりですね
同じく学校で習った古典・古文はWikipediaでいうと中古日本語ってのが対応するんでしょうか ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
 
 
2 hours later…
1:39 PM
I'm wondering what's the difference between beta and launched sites
for example ELL seems to be much more active than some launched sites
 
Mainly that an SE designer created a theme for graduated sites :)
 
so the SE headquarters decides which site to launch?
 
Pretty much.
You need a bunch of high rep users who have access to features like closing the question (graduation raises reputation requirements)
You need a clear scope and a stable community.
Beyond that it's rather arbitrary.
 
@CodesInChaos oh I didn't know that > (graduation raises reputation requirements)
 
After graduation you need 3k to close, 2k to edit and 10k to view deleted content.
 
1:54 PM
so basically 2x reps of now...
apparently no language-related sites other than EL&U graduated
 
Supposedly it's mainly limited by their designers
But I'm not sure if I really believe that, since the graduation rate is pretty damn low.
 
2:12 PM
are sites graduating constantly?
 
Noun: open compound (plural open compounds)
  1. (grammar) A compound word with spaces in it. For example: hang out, school bus, science fiction.
gosh, that autopreview looks sort of ugly.
 
hmm... what's the antonym of this word?
it somehow sounds like "transparent glass" to me :)
Noun: closed compound (plural closed compounds)
  1. (grammar) A compound word without spaces in it. Some examples: dishcloth, keyboard, pancake, altogether, accuse, waterproof.
Noun: hyphenated compound (plural hyphenated compounds)
  1. (grammar) A compound word combined using hyphens, such as get-together, half-baked, two-tone, or broad-minded.
I'd rather say these are typographical matters
 
perhaps in English, but in a language with plenty of compound words, not that much.
 
what do you think its linguistic significance is?
I mean, languages like Japanese doesn't have spaces in the first place...
maybe grammatological topics though...
 
they were moreorless justified in school here with the reasoning of 'they form a concept, which is why they're a compound'
it somehow makes them easier to grasp, I guess
I've never really thought about its linguistic aspects
 
2:27 PM
wait a minute, a "compound" should be one word without spaces in English?
 
I would say that in English, a hyphenated word, or a word with or without spaces, is still a compound word
if it is formed by two separate words
 
maybe that I only know linguistic "word" rather than ordinary "word" in English
except for when counting words
 
a compound such as 'dining table' would be two words, but one compound word
 
in my former understanding, a "compound" should consist of two or more words
so it's natural that "compound" is written in multiple typographical words
or to say, a compound is a word-like notion that contains multiple words?
 
it's more about etymology and whether you can trace its parts to two or more different words (at least without needing a dictionary to do so)
wiktionary quotes 'altogether' as a compound and it etymologically probably is so, but perhaps not so much to a modern English speaker
same as 'accuse'
the relation between hyphenated and closed compounds is more of a typographical one if you ask me
most closed compounds started hyphenated, and when they standardised into the language, they lost the hyphen
 
2:41 PM
I think a compound must be made of two or more "independent" words
I agree with you that "altogether" doesn't sound like a compound though
 
typographically in the sense that, for some of those examples ('half-baked', 'broad-minded', 'two-tone') I wouldn't object to seeing without the hyphen, but for some ('get-together'), it wouldn't really work
so the distinction between hyphenated and closed compounds is half typographical and half standardisation I guess
that being said, open compounds are often hyphenated as well...
 
is ice-cream okay, for example?
 
it was the standard form in the early 20th century, actually
 
really? my surprise
 
not sure where I read this, but there was some sort of shift going on in the 1920s-ish about that
3
Q: Why is there a hyphen in ‘to-night’?

Listenever How are you to-night, Helen? Have you coughed much to-day? —Jane Eyre Why does Jane Eyre have a hyphen in to-night? Does it signify that the pronunciation in Emily Brontë’s day was [tunáit], not [tənáit], or what?

particularly, the lower answer quoting n-grams and reuters
 
 
2 hours later…
5:05 PM
@broccoliforest It's a bit irregular, but I'd guess about one site per month graduates.
 

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