The Practice Room

7:26 AM

@mey Mey I personally think that G is the easiest key to play guitar. I have a method of teaching substitute chords for C that makes the G C D progression very easy to play. D is easier to play than C in my opinion. The F chord is one of the more difficult chords to play on guitar for beginner and you can't very well play many songs in C without having to use the dreaded F chord.

Rory Alsop

7:57 AM

@NReilingh yep, so not really showing the waveform in the string, but a nice indicator of string movement anyway

yo'

8:58 AM

@RockinCowboy I personally prefer D major and E minor, for that sake. The problem is, from the "basic 6" only with B min and F# min. Where of course, F# min is simpler than F maj because it's a 2-finger chord rather than a 3-finger one, leaving you with doubled barre hold.

Rory Alsop

@RockinCowboy Weird. I always see F as one of the easy ones for beginners. So the first chords I teach are in this order: E, Am, A, F, D, C, G, before going off onto some of the 7th's and working up to a fun open position B7

Of course that's the simple, open position chords

Once they have them, I tend to teach the barre versions

And then the rock/powerchord versions

yo'

@RoryAlsop and I hate the F non-barre

Rory Alsop

9:20 AM

@yo' really? It's such an easy move from C, Am or even D in the non-barre version. 1st finger across top two strings, then 2nd and 3rd fingers are straightforward, and if you want to add in that other finger it works too

mey

11:27 AM

Thanks @RockinCowboy @yo' @RoryAlsop. It's interesting that the "easiest chords" differ among players.

yo'

@RoryAlsop and the short barre is somehow difficult to play, that's the problem. Many people end with actually just muting E1 string instead of pressing it.

Rory Alsop

@yo' but...I'm trying to picture how

yo'

@RoryAlsop they play it like this but don't manage to put 1 on the fretboard flat enough (not a good photo really, but shows what I mean):

Rory Alsop

@yo' okay. I mean I either play it like that (or maybe with the 4th finger down as well) but it seems easier to play both the top strings than just one, to me

Rory Alsop

12:00 PM

It is funny seeing that picture though - I almost always play 7 string guitars now, so that neck looks soooooo skinny :-)

yo'

12:27 PM

@RoryAlsop I play the classical guitar (with metal strings though), so it looks skinny to me as well, and I have difficulties play it because my fingers are thick

Rory Alsop

@yo' Actually I usually find classical easier to play than electric, simply because of the string separation on the wider neck

yo'

@RoryAlsop well, I meant "classical vs western" distinction (the one above is a western one)

Rory Alsop

@yo' Yeah - I play a bit of classical and a bit of flamenco, in addition to my usual focus on blues and rock. I teach classical for beginners too

So I have an interesting range of guitars]

yo'

@RoryAlsop also, it's easier on electric guitars because the pressure needed is lower. Especially on western guitars, you press against two thin and high tense strings, which is tough and knows to be painful

but nothing compared to playing for a long time barre chords on a 12-string, after not playing at all for almost half a year. That was painful.

Rory Alsop

@yo' I'm teaching my eldest daughter a bunch of rock songs, and for basics I find I'm using a twin neck Gibson SG, so that once she picks up the chord sequence I move up to the 12 string neck for different tone. I'm quite enjoying an electric 12 string - so much easier than the acoustic, I agree

yo'

12:39 PM

@RoryAlsop but electric 12-string is a 2-neck, no?

Rory Alsop

@yo' This one is - a 12 and a 6

yo'

@RoryAlsop ah ok, so it's an 18-string then :)

Rory Alsop

This is the one I have

@yo' yes

yo'

and I'll have to apologize, I've got to go do something :)

@RoryAlsop wow

Rory Alsop

@yo' seeya later

yo'

12:45 PM

@RoryAlsop bye

Dom

2:26 PM

@RoryAlsop Can you talk to Laurence Payne? He's been posting a lot of answers recently and most of them really aren't answers. Like this one from today:

0

A: Does anyone have any tips on how to do pseudo modulation?

I've never heard the term "pseudo modulation" before. You might get further by looking for information on "chord substitutions". Have you got access to the jazz "Real Books"? Many of the tunes have alternative chords shown. Or there's Dick Hyman's book http://www.amazon.com/Hymans-Professiona...

And this one:

0

A: How to write music theory symbols in evernote?

Don't torture yourself! Music examples need more than the odd symbol thrown into a page of text. Get yourself a music notation program. Musescore http://musescore.org/ is free, and can handle anything you're likely to need. You can grab a graphic to paste into a text-based document if you li...

They pretty much are just comments to the question asked in the answer space.

Rory Alsop

yup - gimme a mo :-)

Dom

3:01 PM

@RoryAlsop Thanks. I would have commented, but this is like the 5th answer I would have made the same comment on.

So obviously I'm not getting the point across.

Rory Alsop

@Dom Flagging the way you have been is good - enough flags, and the system itself takes some (minor) sanctions

but it means all the mods have good visibility, it gets annotated on the user account, and means there is a good trail prior to mod-messaging them

layers of process, I know, but it all helps

Dom

@RoryAlsop Don't migrate that question.

It's not on topic on MusicFans.SE

topo morto

3:18 PM

So yep, re. music.stackexchange.com/questions/30513/… - Why is "what time signature" more problematic than "what key", e.g. music.stackexchange.com/questions/30180/…?

Dom

@topomorto this goes back to the notation idea. If you have the notation you have the time signature and key. If you create a rhythmic figure or a progression then you can analyse what time signature or key signature fits it best.

topo morto

second link should read music.stackexchange.com/questions/30180/…

Dom

If the question was about identifying the key the song was in I would vote to close the same way.

topo morto

So would you vote to close music.stackexchange.com/questions/30180/… ?

That is about identifying the key of a passage of music.

Dom

@topomorto No because it is focuses on the possible keys of a resulting progression. It is not about transcription like the other question. Someone needs to look at it and analyse what is going on, what feels like tonic, and what is outside of the key.

Don't compare them. They are completely different.

If the question revolved around rhythmic figures and what time signatures worked best for it the question would be on topic and comparable to the other question.

Rory Alsop

3:27 PM

@Dom - that said, I still need to update the close reasons in the close dialogue itself. The faq page is sorted, but I haven't transferred it across. In calls today, but will try to remember this evening

topo morto

But is that not pretty much exactly the question asked? - DJ Aftershock has pointed us to some rhythmic figures (those in the song Golden Brown) and asked what time signature would be most appropriate?

Dom

@topomorto No he want's to know what the time signature is which can be found out by just looking at the notation and any answers to the questions will just be transcription. There is no analysis involved.

topo morto

Do we know that there is a definitive notation (one by the original composer) for that song?

Dom

99.9% of music has associated sheet music.

Especially if it is in the pop domain as people want to play it on other instruments.

This is what he wanted. Nothing more.

topo morto

If it is the case that 99.9% of music has associated sheet music that can be considered definitive, then I see your point totally.

However, it seems an optimistic statistic to me!

Dom

3:37 PM

If people play it, there's some kind of notion.

Even in electronic music, most DAW's auto-generate notation.

I know Logic Pro does.

It's not really the best, but it shows what is going on.

topo morto

If you were to go to Logic Pro, and play "Golden Brown" in via your midi keyboard,

Dom

It wouldn't show the correct time signature, but you could easily see where it lines up.

topo morto

I would be impressed if it could tell you the varying time signature in the sheet music you posted!

But that's an aside. The wider point is that most people interested in a piece won't have the DAW project related to it (unless they are the composer).

Dom

Like I said. If people play it there is notation out there.

Rory Alsop

Yep, and easily available through a simple google search

Dom

3:42 PM

Especially for time signature and key signature. In most songs they don't change a lot.

topo morto

Let me just check - you're saying that for the overwhelming majority (maybe 99.9%) of pieces of music that people here might be interested in, you can get hold of an accurate notation via a google search?

Rory Alsop

@topomorto exclude tablature for guitarists - as generally it isn't accurate at all :-)

topo morto

I know that from experience... "5 stars" on ultimate guitar means "at least half the chords are right" :)

Dom

Musicnotes has pretty much every I can think of.

Rory Alsop

@topomorto it frustrates me - I always end up handwriting tablature for my daughter

I'd like to just let her grab tabs herself

Dom

3:49 PM

Excluding brand new songs and several obscure ones.

topo morto

Well, I look forward to checking this out! (no time to do so right at this moment)

Dom

Also don't forget about IMSLP having most classical scores and a ton of stuff outside of public domain.

topo morto

What about if someone had written a song with an unusual rhythmic feel (in which case it obviously wouldn't be on 'Musicnotes', 'IMLSP' or similar) - would their song about time signature then be on topic? That would seem a closer situation to music.stackexchange.com/questions/30180/… ....

Rory Alsop

@topomorto why would it not be on Musicnotes?

Stack Exchange

0

Q: Why couldn't I start a bounty for 50 rep?

This question currently has an open bounty for 50 rep: Associating chords with scales But when I added a bounty to my question, the minimum rep I could offer was 100 (I think the levels were 100, 200, 300, 500 though I'm not 100% certain). Why was this the case?

topo morto

3:56 PM

I mean if the composer themselves is asking, as seems to be the case in the question I linked

Dom

1

Q: How to differentiate between 12/8 vs 6/8 timing (or hemiola)

How would a composer differentiate between a 12/8 and a 6/8 time signature? On 3/4 timing you'd have 3 quarter notes as your rhythm, on 6/8 you'd have 2 dotted quarter notes correct? I wrote a song that I tried to give a 12 8 feel, with strong rhythmic beats every 3 8th notes (i.e. 4 3/8 bars t...

theory rhythm time-signatures

This is pretty much what you described.

yo'

@RoryAlsop I believe he speaks about a bounty on his question, and links ridiculously completely another question.

Rory Alsop

@yo' oh - hadn't spotted the odd link

yo'

@RoryAlsop So I believe I'm correct with my guess :)

Rory Alsop

oh - no I see what you mean. No the link doesn't matter - you always need to leave a higher bounty than any previous one

his link is correct

yo'

4:02 PM

@RoryAlsop and I believe that if you have given a bounty, then your next one has to be bigger.

@RoryAlsop No, it is not. Because you can't have two bounties at all at the same time

Rory Alsop

@yo' nope

it's any bounty

you can try it

try and put a bounty on that question - you need to leave at least 100

yo'

@RoryAlsop on which one? On the one that has a bounty? I don't even get the bounty button!

Rory Alsop

@yo' need to check what rep you need for that priv maybe

If I try, I need to go with 100 as a minimum

yo'

@RoryAlsop I have that priv

this question has had a bounty before and I can offer a 50 bounty on it:

5

Q: I don't like my "head voice", is there anything I can do?

I'm a man in my 30s with no singing training and virtually no experience singing in choirs but I do sing a fair bit (every Sunday at church). I think I'm a baritone although I am not certain to be honest - I know I have to change from chest to throat voice the G below middle-C but not much else....

voice vocal-range

Rory Alsop

@yo' it's at the same time, as far as I am aware.

Lemme go find the meta post on it

yo'

4:06 PM

@RoryAlsop there can't be two bounties at the same time ;)

topo morto

@Dom it is that kind of situation, but that question you linked to is also asked by a person who has enough musical knowledge to come up with some suggestions themselves. Let's pretend that "Golden Brown" is being written today, and its composer doesn't have the knowledge to do that - they only have a recording of the piece, and the question in their head, which they come here to ask. Would "What key signature is my piece in" be an off-topic question?

Rory Alsop

@yo' oh - you're right. They removed that a few years back

why had I not spotted that

yo'

but it's a mystery to me why he couldn't offer a 50 bounty.

Rory Alsop

@yo' and - you are right. The doubling comes from your own bounties

> Can I raise my bounty?

You can offer as many bounties on a question as you want. However, only one bounty can be active on a question at a time. Moreover, any user may have at most 3 concurrent bounties at a time.

Note that if you offer several bounties on the same question, you will have to double the amount each time (or more). That is, if your first bounty was worth 50 reputation, your second bounty on the same question will have to be for at least 100, your third for at least 200 and so on. If you've already offered a bounty for more than 250, you can still offer more bounties for 5…

so I've deleted my answer

yo'

@RoryAlsop Seems we seem unable to say why's that, I'd suggest marking it a bug so that someone from the Powers sees it and maybe gives an explanation.

Dom

4:15 PM

@topomorto We should not be transcribing pieces for people. If they gave us something solid to work with it is on topic. If not it isn't. If you want to be a musician writing down what you play/create is very important.

And most of the time it's just that simple to find out what the time signature or key signature of a piece is.

And some times neither is appropriate.

Rory Alsop

@yo' I have done that, and slightly tweaked the question to make it more obvious that the linked question is just an example

yo'

@RoryAlsop I would remove the link. We all know that minimal bounty is 50. But I can't (no suggested edits on meta)

Dom

For example I've been writing pieces using Dual Modality and those pieces are keyless because there isn't a key to describe them.

yo'

@Dom Yann Tiersen has a nice example of a song that "switches keys every 2 bars":

topo morto

@Dom sure, but as a newcomer to the site I am still wondering where the lines are. You said "If they gave us something solid to work with" - what exactly do you mean - the fact that they have notated it? The fact that they have made some attempt to analyse it?

yo'

4:24 PM

@topomorto There are no solid lines on things like this.

topo morto

But we shouldn't encourage a situation where someone comes along to the site, asks a question which to them may look very similar to another one that has been warmly-received, and they then get shot down in flames without us being able to give a clear reason why.

Dom

@topomorto It's not binary. The scope of the site will never be.

yo'

@topomorto I don't argue about that. Rule 1: Be nice. Rule 1 prime: If the other person is rude, apply Rule 1.

Dom

If just looking at the notation though gives you the answer, it's not analysis it's transcription.

topo morto

@Dom I thought we'd moved off that scenario (music.stackexchange.com/questions/30513/…) to one where we were imagining someone talking about an original composition.

Dom

4:37 PM

@topomorto So someone asks "What key is my piece in?" or "What is the time signature of my piece?" and just has a recording nothing else?

topo morto

Yes.

Dom

How will it help someone else? (I.E. will the question be useful to anyone but the asker?)

Rory Alsop

@MatthewRead @NReilingh - as we have updated our on topic page at music.stackexchange.com/help/on-topic , I have updated our off topic close reasons - can you please have a look at music.stackexchange.com/admin/flags/close-as-off-topic and approve or edit as needed?

Rockin Cowboy

@RoryAlsop @yo' @mey @RoryAlsop It's easier for me to play the full F barre chord because my fingers are too short to curl around to land on the g and d string perpendicular if I do the mini barre on the e and b string. To play the 4 string "open" F I have to tilt my hand & fingers sideways so they are almost parallel to strings. Some folks reach over with thumb on F to play the bass note F with thumb. I can't do that.

topo morto

@Dom well that would depend on the specific recording and the quality of the answers, but are you alluding to the fact that it may not help someone else because it's an original composition? again, if so, isn't that the situation with music.stackexchange.com/questions/30180/… ?

Dom

4:47 PM

@topomorto The site isn't just about answering people questions it's about having a collection of questions that will be helpful to future users. If a question solely for the asker and doesn't pose any usefulness to future users then it's not a good fit here. The question you keep saying is the same has an abstracted progression (or pattern) that is very likely to come up again and is about the progression in general. Again these are different types of questions.

Rockin Cowboy

@RoryAlsop @yo' @mey The G C D progression is easy to teach beginners if you teach the G with pinky on the high e string. After they learn those 3 chords they can play thousands of songs. Then you can throw in the Em (easiest chord to play on guitar IMO) and the Am all in same key of G. Now they can play over a million songs.

Rory Alsop

@RockinCowboy I usually don't teach the pinky on the high e until they have fully learnt it using the 3rd finger

yo'

@RockinCowboy and I start with D A E, which was much simpler for me. The problem is that the parallel minors are tough

Rory Alsop

And then I usually teach them the D and the G (3rd and 4th fingers at the 3rd fret) on those top 2 strings

Rockin Cowboy

@yo' Some folks have a hard time with the A - squishing fingers in or playing a partial barre with bent finger.

Rory Alsop

4:50 PM

But I always see G as much harder for beginners than E, A, D

And C, Am, F is a logical and simple progression with easy finger movements

yo'

@RockinCowboy with well tuned string height you should have a problem placing them further from the fret 2 and then it's fine. I've never played the 2-finger variant.

topo morto

@Dom how is it abstracted? It just has the chord names. If someone comes up with that same progression transposed up a step, and comes to the site with the same question in their head, how will they find that one?

Rory Alsop

@topomorto I'm not sure that makes sense...

topo morto

how so?

yo'

@topomorto well, for sure, if they do, it would be a dupe.

Rockin Cowboy

4:59 PM

@RoryAlsop Yes C, Am F is a simple progression but without the G, you are limited in which songs you can play. I like to get a new student playing something they want to play as soon as possible. The first chord I often teach to a complete newbie is the G played with only the 4 top strings. If they have at least one functional finger (or toe) they can play that. Then teach adding the G on the low E string and mute the A string so they can strum all 6 strings while fretting only two.

Then comes the G fretting both the high e and b string. So many different ways to play open G in first position and it is used in the key of G and C so it's a good chord to know.

topo morto

OK, I guess having chord names is abstracted from a recording... if that's what you meant

Dom

@topomorto Let's put it this way. There are only 12 ways to write a chord progression out even if you consider the transpositions to be unique (which in analysis they are not) and that all keys are equally likely (which again, they are not) then it still way more general information then just a recording.

topo morto

@Dom makes sense.

Rockin Cowboy

@topomorto @Dom Looking at this questions about the chord progression - I see that one as very useful to future visitors as it provides an opportunity to teach a concept based around that particular example. The explanations for what is happening and why it works would be useful to many composers. I agree that questions/answers only useful to the person asking the question are not a good fit.

Rockin Cowboy

5:15 PM

@topomorto @dom @RoryAlsop If a chord progression is listed as part of the question future visitors can always stumble across it and plainly see from the wording of the question that it might be a useful learning opportunity for them. If they have to listen to a recording of a song, it's usefulness might not be so apparent and they may not take time to listen to the example song. Not an opinion - just an observation.

topo morto

5:38 PM

So I'm getting that:

1) We don't allow questions about existing (generally available) music that could be answered just by looking at the notation.
(based on the logic that notation for most music that will be asked about is likely to be available without too much difficulty)

2) We don't allow questions about original music (i.e. where the composer is asking) where they haven't made an effort to notate/abstract the actual thing they are asking about (thereby allowing it to be tied in to future questions)

Rockin Cowboy

6:31 PM

@topomorto I think the overriding guiding principle is "will this question and the answers thereto, be potentially useful to future visitors of Music;Practice and Theory SE?" Although sometimes the answer to the future utility question - might be debatable.

Dom

@RockinCowboy That's why there's really no black or white on this topic. It's kind of more like you know it when you see it.

Rockin Cowboy

@Dom Agreed - but that's what I meant by "might be debatable". Same as not black and white.

Dom

@RockinCowboy Also it seems people have a misconception of what analysis means and confuse it with transcription all the time.

Asking what the time signature of a piece of music is way more transcription then analysis.

Rockin Cowboy

@Dom Good point. I would think analysis is generally a good fit whereas transcription would not - for obvious reasons. So a good test to apply for questions that lend themselves - would be "is this transcription or analysis?"

topo morto

@RockinCowboy sure. But you guys (mods, experienced users, etc) have been debating yourself in meta what that actually means in terms of specifically what shouldn't be allowed / encourages. So that's why I think laying down some principles a bit more explicitly would - if possible - be healthy.

Rockin Cowboy

6:43 PM

@topomorto I certainly agree with you. And BTW - I'm not much more experienced as a user than you are (couple months). I'm like you - still trying to figure it all out. But would be happy to help with the wording to better clarify what is/is not a good fit for the site. But first I need to develop a clear understanding myself

Patrx2

@Dom It is also, as you say, available in sheet music, and, where the notation isn't available, unless it's very straightforward, there is no definitive answer.

Dom

@Patrx2 Very true.

topo morto

@Dom sure there will always be grey areas and debate. But that doesn't mean we can't lay down some rules for things that can be agreed on - that is to say make things as black and white as we can.

Rockin Cowboy

But first I need to develop a clear understanding myself

Dom

@topomorto It should be clear by saying we don't allow transcription.

topo morto

6:45 PM

That's why I made meta.music.stackexchange.com/questions/2124/…, hoping that it (or something like it) could then translate into some more specific wording on music.stackexchange.com/help/on-topic

@Dom for what it's worth, that particular phrase ("we don't allow transcription") doesn't make clear to me the things we have been talking about. I don't see just asking someone the key signature of a piece as, in itself, "transcription".

Rockin Cowboy

@topomorto Good job opening the discussion. I see that many have weighed in. I will try to find time to read all the arguments and opinions and weigh in myself - perhaps with a suggested specific wording on the help page.

topo morto

7:03 PM

Well many of the people who weighed in are me(!) - just putting down some suggested criteria to vote on. I hadn't quite clocked that meta.music.stackexchange.com/questions/854/… was serving the same purpose, but I'm not sure that that page - despite the consensus it built - actually translates easily to a workable set of criteria (which as Dom says could never cover all cases, but could still pick off some of the low-hanging fruit)

Patrx2

@topomorto Can't really see how it isn't. It's either readily available in the score or, if lacking a score, either very easily determined or lacking a definitive answer - just like metre in this regard. If you are asking how a key centre is established in a piece, that's an analytical question. The key signature itself, where it exists, is no more than a visual aide-memoire (and wasn't really systematised until the 19th century).

Rockin Cowboy

7:58 PM

@topomorto I saw that. But I also linked to the other discussion and that's when I concluded that there is quite a bit to read up on to digest all the arguments and translate that into suggested re-wording or clarification or new guideline to be added in help.

topo morto

8:37 PM

@Patrx2 I suppose I was thinking that someone might ask "what's the time signature" as a way of asking "how should I count this" - as more of a practical musicianship question than one of notation or transcription. Probably less relevant to questions about original music, and if it's true that quality notation for most music is available online, not really a consideration for existing music either (though I still have to check that out!)

Patrx2

10:18 PM

@topomorto Checking it out is fairly easy. Google "<name of the piece> score" (or "sheet music"). At the top or very nearly the top of the results will be "Images for <Google search terms>", with a line of images directly underneath. Clicking on one will bring up a whole page of images that you can follow to their sources. In very nearly all cases, you'll be able to locate at least a lead sheet.

Rockin Cowboy

10:43 PM

@Patrx2 But I have often found that to get more than half of the first page of a 6 page score - you have to buy it. Some of us are cheap! Lol

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