Aug. 2016 Confusion Regarding English Language Learners versus English Language Usage?

6:39 PM

So I've invited people to come but I'm not sure if anybody will. I'll monologue my thoughts on the subject if they don't, although I think it'd be more enlightening to have mutual discourse.

DEAD

I came!

Tonepoet

Hi!

So what is your opinion on the matter DEAD? Is E.L.L. just for E.S.L., or is it based upon complexity of the question?

I'm collecting metathreads into a tabular window at the moment.

DEAD

Uh, well, where do I start?

This just got too complicated, and the problem is that it shouldn't be.

Well, ideally, it doesn't depend on question complexity per se.

It's just a deciding factor.

And incidentally, ELL questions are less complicated.

Well, mostly.

Tonepoet

A deciding factor? What others are there?

DEAD

But like everything about ELL, the ideal situation doesn't tell us a lot about what to do in real world.

@Tonepoet How should I put this? I would've perhaps disagreed with creating a "basic question ghetto" in the first place.

SE sites are always distinguished according to the content that can be found in them, but the difference between ELU and ELL relates to audience, not content.

See where the problem is?

You wanted to help learners? Fine. But don't give them their own place, 'cause many experts won't be visiting that "n00b" site.

But we're way past that.

Tonepoet

6:49 PM

Yeah: To be honest, I probably would've objected too if I was here at the time, although right now I'm just interested in what the policies are, rather than what they would be ideally, hence the room description I made.

DEAD

ELL is there, and we gain nothing by going back.

@Tonepoet There really are no policies except "learner questions go to ELL".

Vague sentence that's been my pet peeve for quite some time.

Tonepoet

I think part of the difficulty is in distinguishing what constitutes a "learner question".

DEAD

Thus, by definition, if I ask an English-related question on ELL I've gone to the write place, because I'm a learner.

BUT

Some learners ask weird questions.

Some learners, willingly or not, study a lot of irrelevant LitCrit.

Some learners don't even know what to ask.

Tonepoet

If you're suggesting that E.L.&.U. is for lit. crit. isn't that against help center guidelines?

DEAD

@Tonepoet No no, I'm just saying that not all English-related learner questions are a good fit for ELL.

Or SE, even.

Tonepoet

6:53 PM

I see.

Yeah, that's agreeable.

DEAD

What really bothers me is how no one's feeling like doing anything about it.

Tonepoet

We do try to close questions, although they're asked and answered faster than we can do that.

DEAD

Even meta.ELU got concerned about some real problem on their site.

Tonepoet

Hi @whitedevil B.T.W.

DEAD

But meta.ELL . . .

There are at least three people who care, but they can't do anything about since there is no site-wide consensus on anything.

Oh, and I also should rant about how ELL's standards for a good question are really low.

Tonepoet

6:59 PM

Site-wide consensus is important. I've mentioned that meta sets policy before and I'd like to mention at least three meta threads I didn't in the original line of commentary: The first is "This is not a site for 'serious English language enthusiasts,' and it never will be" I noticed Phenry's comment got seventeen people to agree with it.

This might represent considerable amount of dissent with my own opinion since it states "
ELL is ' (a question and answer site for speakers of other languages learning English.)[http://ell.stackexchange.com/tour](http://ell.stackexchange.com/tour] It serves a purpose as that. To use the existence of ELL as an excuse to bar basic practical usage questions at ELU is ludicrous."

Markdown ain't working that time. Meh

DEAD

You double-pasted the link. :)

Tonepoet

Ahah. Let's try that again then. It was just a link to the E.L.L. tour.

DEAD

I'm not sure how much meta support you'll get if you try to stop people from throwing basic questions at ELL and letting the acidic ones remain, but I think the main thing to be done here in on ELL's side.

The biggest plague of the two sites is how an ELL question isn't expected to follow the most established SE guidelines.

Tonepoet

I've invited people from an E.L.L. chatroom and asked for an opinion first before creating this chatroom. Let me see if I can find the transcript.

DEAD

From Language Overflow?

I see your message there.

Tonepoet

7:10 PM

Yeah.

I invited people from there since seemed to be the more active one.

But the transcript was from another, since I didn't want to disrupt anything.

The "main" chatroom, which only had three people in it at the time.

DEAD

ELL's Cabin is really not the main room anymore.

Tonepoet

in ELL's Cabin, 1 hour ago, by Tonepoet

@DamkerngT. Should I continue this line of discourse or just drop it? I'm pretty sure the general consensus isn't just for E.L.L. isn't just for E.S.L. based upon what I've read in E.L.U. meta, but I figured I'd ask here since I'm not 100% familiar with the E.L.L. perspective.

DEAD

Well, nothing gets more native speaker than Stoney, and he hangs out there more than on ELU.

ELL is a site that nonnatives go, but that doesn't necessarily suggests it's for them.

Tonepoet

Yeah, I noticed that StonyB was the top contributor in the beta phase on Area51.

Fumblefingers isn't that far down the list too.

As long as we're discussing users, I think I saw several threads that might highlight the perspective of @FumbleFingers too.

Well, I had them anyway.

DEAD

@Tonepoet Fumble is just a good, tired guy.

Tonepoet

7:26 PM

I know.

I think virtually everybody who has spent enough time at an S.E. website just wants what they think is best for the website, even if we differ on what that is.

Here it is:

-2

Q: Why was this question migrated to ELL?

I don't understand why Change “I must go and look for my brothers.” from active voice to passive voice was migrated to ELL. I know learners are more likely than native speakers to ask questions involving switching a statement from active to passive voice, and there would certainly be a strong ca...

discussion

"I migrated the question because it seems to be very basic." – Matt E. Эллен♦ .That sounds like a moderator action, right?

I'm not claiming that's the only reason why but I take that as evidence on the complexity based-side of the issue.

DEAD

@Tonepoet Yep, after you've spent enough time on a site, if you keep going, you're there for all the right reasons.

Tonepoet

What I really want to find though, is the meta-post thatproposed E.L.L.

DEAD

@Tonepoet Mhm

@Tonepoet Reloads shotgun

Tonepoet

Oh dear, please don't shoot me!

DEAD

You also wanna take a look at J.R.'s meta posts.

1

A: Why was my question rejected on EL&U yet well-received on ELL?

I don't think "too basic" is really the right dividing line. Some questions on ELL can be difficult to answer, because some aspects of English are difficult to explain. Perhaps "too intuitive" would be a better way to say it. (Most native speakers instinctively know the difference between declar...

This guy is as close as it gets to being ELL's mother.

The only problem is that he's a guy.

Tonepoet

7:38 PM

Yeah, I saw that too.

I was going to mention it later.

Well, maybe not that.

But I did see a J.R.R. post.

DEAD

As a conclusion, @Tone, I'd say that people moderate the way they like, and something might remain on ELU while a similar question gets migrated to ELL. That's the bitter truth about all this.

Tonepoet

That's... true.

If I may though I'd still like to get that post out.

DEAD

Fortunately, there are no real-life benefits to this and people are honestly trying to help . . . possibly with few exceptions.

But if there are any lines we like to be happily drawing, it should be "intuitive" vs. "non-intuitive", not "basic" vs. "sophisticated" or "acidic" or anything like that.

Tonepoet

Ah, I think this is it:

65

A: What is the difference between ELU and ELL?

ELU is a site intended for "serious linguists." Over time, many non-native speakers stumbled across ELU, and would ask questions that native speakers considered very basic. This caused mixed feelings: on one hand, as the board became flooded with more and more basic and trivial questions, some us...

"very basic"

Maybe that's not it though.

Just a moment.

Yeah it's probably not because I think it's the one I originally linked.

Speaking of which, I have a very silly question: Why does the Gen. Ref. close reason mention E.L.L?

I don't think Gen. Ref. is on topic there either, is it?

Ah, no @DEAD.

17

A: Continued recommendations that things be moved to ELL

I'm one of the folks leaving a lot of those comments. I don't mean for them to be off-putting. Fact is, there are millions of people on the planet who are trying to improve their English. Many of them stumble onto ELU, see it as a godsend, and end up asking a “good” question on the “wrong” Stac...

There we go, I had difficulty finding that again but there it is..

"Here's my guess: if those new users were aware of both sites – if they understood the goals and knew the targeted audiences of each – they would have asked on ELL instead of ELU."

It's not very revealing though come to think of it.

The next question down though has some interesting information though.

So does the peanut gallery have anything to add?

Tonepoet

8:45 PM

Hmm, not yet I suppose. Well, I'll add a few more links for consideration and if anybody wants to comment eventually do feel free to do so.

42

Q: Should we have a migration path to ELL?

I know that this has been discussed before but, at the time, it was not possible since ELL was still in beta. Now that it has graduated and has had its first mod elections and everything, it might be time to reconsider the question. If we do choose to have one, we should also set up some clear ...

discussion status-completed migration ell

"However, we do receive a fair amount of perfectly good questions that are simply too basic for this site but would be perfect for ELL."

6

A: Should I go to the “English Language Learners” site?

For basic clarifications on grammar and understanding the meaning of words in context, you probably would find the best fit on English Language Learners. The site is geared toward people who are learning English. If you feel you are quite fluent in English, and the kinds of grammar and meaning q...

But also:

12

A: Should I go to the “English Language Learners” site?

The short answer is yes; though I would not characterize ELL as for "low-level" anything. Because most of their participants are studying rather than using English, and so have access to textbooks on grammar and conjugations and so on, ELL actually usually has more technical explanations of gra...

4

Q: One answer to a Q. is suited to ELL, but the other answer is suited to EL&U

This question: dogs, not cats -> why 'not' originated in EL&U, but was migrated to ELL. I agree that the original question and the first (my) answer are probably more appropriate to ELL than EL&U. But the second answer (from @NVZ) seems to me to be more appropriate for EL&U. Is there any way...

discussion feature-request ell cross-posting

I think that's it for now.

I probably should've started with that last link first.

Transcript for

Aug. 2016 Confusion Regarding English…