@ArthurReutenauer -- thank you for the correction regarding the name and origin of the economics prize. regarding the age limit for the fields medal, one of the goals of the medal is to encourage younger mathematicians toward more "fundamental" work. mathematics has been called a "young man's" field (and the fact that there are precious few women so honored is quite telling).

there are a few notable exceptions, who have remained "productive" much longer, developing new ideas as well as nurturing the next generation.

@DavidCarlisle -- regarding your comment on tex.stackexchange.com/q/246994, what are the alternatives to asking a duplicate question if you don't have enough rep to post a bounty? i guess raising the question on the chat is one possibility, but that really notifies only a small subset of the potential audience. (i'm pleased that the person who asked the question had obviously done his homework, since he clearly pointed to the earlier question.)

@JosephWright @DavidCarlisle Thanks, what would i do without you guys.

@barbarabeeton yes the site rules are not always good, but given a question that says it is a repeat of an earlier one, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that closing as dup is the right response according to the way the site is intended to work (although I didn't vote to close) the canonical way to raise awareness is to put a bounty on the old question as "not received enough attention" although that's not really available to a new user

@barbarabeeton I’m not set on not calling the economics prize a Nobel prize ;-) But it’s interesting to remind it from time to time. From what I read on Wikipedia it is functionally identical to a Nobel prize, for all intent and purposes.

@Johannes_B I think I failed to do anything in this case, but I'll accept the thanks anyway, I must deserve it for something:-)

@ArthurReutenauer -- agreed, and you provided information that had escaped me, so that's certainly worth a "thank you".

@DavidCarlisle Something in the past, maybe something in the future. :-)

@DavidCarlisle -- actually, i think the user was inviting closure as a duplicate. and the older question has now been answered, with at least one upvote, so closing the current one is now a legitimate option. (the older question obviously slipped through the "answer the unanswered" sweep, a point i was going to make, but the comment got too long. i'll never make it as a good tweety-bird.)

If anyone wants to work in (very) central London, my employer is looking for a new head of IT :-)

recruitment.roh.org.uk/vacancyView.php?requirementId=1988

@ArthurReutenauer you? :-)

@DavidCarlisle Now, I’m happy working on the website :-)

@ArthurReutenauer do they use xetex anywhere?

@DavidCarlisle No, I doubt I’ll be able to make the publications department use any form of TeX for producing the programmes. I suppose they use InDesign like everyone else. And the other departments are happy with horrible Word docs.

Although it would be fun to make these things in TeX: static.roh.org.uk/showings/…

@ArthurReutenauer we don't use tex here either:-)

@DavidCarlisle Actually, I wish they had used XeTeX to produce that: flickr.com/photos/royaloperahouse/16758060486/in/…

The Hindi text isn’t shaped correctly, and the Arabic text is rubbish (not shaped at all and set from left to right)

@ArthurReutenauer you could use Stephen's answer here:

@ArthurReutenauer l-to-r arabic, hmm did anyone comment on that at the time:-)

@DavidCarlisle Looks nice, that’s an idea.

@DavidCarlisle I didn’t notice any article mentioning it, and of course nobody said anything during the performance.

@DavidCarlisle I doubt any critic would have noticed (they were very complimentary about the production generally). What’s more, any small glitch was overshadowed by the fact that a couple of weeks into the production run there was an underground fire around Aldwych that made it necessary to cut off the power lines while fighting it, which led to a massive power outage in central London, including half the Royal Opera House.

@DavidCarlisle We managed to keep the shows running, but there was a little bit of a panic for a few days.

@ArthurReutenauer ah yes that did make the news:-)

4.3.2. Unicode 7.0 Support in Glibc
An update to Glibc locale data (character map, character width, and LC_CTYPE information) in Fedora 22 enables support for Unicode 7.0. Previous Fedora releases supported Unicode 5.1. This change adds almost 8000 new characters, and also corrects Unicode data for some existing characters per the latest Unicode standard.

@DavidCarlisle ^^ :)

We are proud to announce the official release of Fedora 22, the
community-driven and community-built operating system now available
in Cloud, Server, and Workstation editions.

@PauloCereda Too bad they’re doing that release one week before Unicode 8.0 is out ;-)

@ArthurReutenauer Indeed, but thankfully they jumped from Unicode 5.1 to 7.0. :)

@PauloCereda Sure, it’s good that they’re catching up.

@ArthurReutenauer :) I will download it and install in my laptop. :)

@PauloCereda @JosephWright should sell them unicode-letters.def

@DavidCarlisle ooh big money

@DavidCarlisle Well by the look of things I'm going to be complaining to the Unicode Consortium about Greek mappings :-)

@JosephWright If you mean Apostolos Syropolous’ intervention on the XeTeX list, I don’t think there is any merit to it.

@ArthurReutenauer No?

@JosephWright Well, unless I missed something the grievance was that the default mappings were not appropriate for all-uppercase typesetting in Greek, which expects no tonic accents (but may have diaeresis).

@ArthurReutenauer Yes, that's the issue

@ArthurReutenauer Seems to me it could be handled by having separate upper and title case target code points

But character-by-character mapping cannot capture that - or at least not without serious convolutions. The only way to do this is on at least a word-by-word basis. Hence it’s the domain of “higher protocols”, as the Unicode Standard calls them.

@ArthurReutenauer In any case, I have a plan for expl3

@JosephWright Superficially yes, but you’ve still got the issue of the diaeresis that appears in all-uppercase typesetting.

@JosephWright And titlecase is actually not that a useful concept.

@JosephWright Good :-)

@ArthurReutenauer But other rules are covered by SpecialCasing.txt and do include context-dependence

@ArthurReutenauer No?

@ArthurReutenauer Seems clear enough to me

In any case, I don’t think it would have been right for Unicode to hardcode typesetting rules for one particular language in the properties of the script.

@ArthurReutenauer Comes down I suppose to if you see this as 'typesetting': see e.g. rule for Lithuanian dotted-above which is applied at the SpecialCasing.txt level

@JosephWright It may have been technically possible (I don’t remember all of what there is in SpecialCasing.txt off-hand), but I think it’s better tradeoff to delegate that responsibility to external processes.

@JosephWright Yes, that one is an edge case. I don’t think it should constitute precedent.

@ArthurReutenauer As I say, I have a plan for Greek which will tackle most of the issues

@SeanAllred I'm reading your blog post; I'd say that TeXworks and the other programs you list are front-ends or IDEs, rather than editors, a term I'd reserve for Emacs, TextMate and similar programs specialized for text editing. There's also a third category, mazes, to which one can easily ascribe a well-known program.

@JosephWright By the way, that character (with dot and tilde above) only appears in special contexts. The tilde is not part of regular Lithuanian orthography but is used some stress / tone patterns (and would typically appears in specialised dictionaries, I think I have it in one). That’s probably why it was given special treatment.

(@JosephWright The point being that one has much more control over these specialised uses than general spelling of natural languages with all its possible variations.)

@ArthurReutenauer Applies to several cases

# Lithuanian

# Lithuanian retains the dot in a lowercase i when followed by accents.

# Remove DOT ABOVE after "i" with upper or titlecase

0307; 0307; ; ; lt After_Soft_Dotted; # COMBINING DOT ABOVE

# Introduce an explicit dot above when lowercasing capital I's and J's
# whenever there are more accents above.
# (of the accents used in Lithuanian: grave, acute, tilde above, and ogonek)

0049; 0069 0307; 0049; 0049; lt More_Above; # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER I
004A; 006A 0307; 004A; 004A; lt More_Above; # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER J

@JosephWright That’s good. And I really think it should be addressed at the format / macro package level.

@ArthurReutenauer The oddity with Greek is the question is it a feature of the language or the code points. As only Greek uses Greek chars, this is not so clear cut as say the Lithuanian case (where it's definitely language-based).

@JosephWright That’s not completely true for Greek, Coptic used to be encoded using the same code points as base, plus some addition (not any more).

@ArthurReutenauer Well at present I'm going with the idea that the core mappings just follow Unicode and the Greek business will be language-specific. I might move the final-sigma rule as part of the change: it's really a bit odd that it is supposed to apply to non-Greek text.

@JosephWright I’m not sure how much this influenced the decision, but Greek has quite a lot of baggage when it comes to spelling, even recently.

@ArthurReutenauer I'm aware of some of that

@JosephWright I think that’s the right decision, really.

@JosephWright While we’re at it, you should be aware, if that’s not already the case, that the characters with so-called oxia also are somewhat controversial.

@ArthurReutenauer Don't know this one

@ArthurReutenauer Clearly we need people to test the code: I'm just trying to build up something usable at the moment

The first block of Greek characters around U+0380 include characters with an accent that Unicode calls tonos; that’s for modern Greek in the so-called monotonic spelling.

@ArthurReutenauer Yes, I do know about monotonic versus polytonic

(@JosephWright Not done yet ;-))

But the extended Greek block starting at U+1F00 include, among other characters with accents, characters with an oxia which is visually identical to the tonos. And there’s no real justification to have separate characters with the oxia (they’re canonically equivalent to the ones with tonos, by the way), since the two groups are used in complementary distribution (monotonic modern Greek vs polytonic modern Greek and Ancient Greek).

@egreg That's a good point and I'll make a note of that, thanks :) And I wonder what that program is that you're talking about... ;) Though I don't think mud-slinging will help our glorious vision haha

For LaTeX this shouldn’t be too much of a problem since it’s enough to treat them as equivalent in whatever text you have - it’s more the other way round that’s a problem: given a manuscript text in Greek, how to encode it?

@JosephWright Just thought I’d tell you.

@ArthurReutenauer Luckily, such considerations are out-of-scope for case changing :-) The code takes the input and maps to the related code points for output as appropriate

@ArthurReutenauer Not my problem :-)

@JosephWright Sure :-)

@ArthurReutenauer There are lots of compat chars and the like in the spec, but I didn't feel it was right for a case changing function to mess with them. Normalisation of that form belongs elsewhere.

@JosephWright I agree with that. By the way, the Greek stuff is probably a matter for Polyglossia, anyway - it already includes the changes in xgreek.sty

@ArthurReutenauer I'll look at that, but remember I'm working on an expl3 implementation so it's independent of exiting language support code (and it's expandable)

@JosephWright Sure, I’m looking forward to seeing the code :-)

@ArthurReutenauer I'll have this part sorted in plenty of time for TUG2015, so will include a suitable Greek demo there :-)

@JosephWright Cool :-)

@JosephWright is the length of the talks already known?

@yo' tug.org/tug2015/cfp.html: 35-45 mins

@yo' I will aim for just over 30 mins, I think, as I already have slides that are about that long from UK-TUG2014 (and need to add material!)

For additional information on amsmath, use the '?' option.

@JosephWright About Greek again - sorry, there’s one more thing. Are you aware of subscript and adscript iotas?

@1010011010 \usepackage[?]{amsmath}

@DavidCarlisle Aargh ;-)

@DavidCarlisle Information on?

Does anybody understand what's this is all about? latex-community.org/forum/…

@1010011010 I assume that your quotation above was meant as a question about what was meant by the ? option, it means use [?] when calling amsmath.

@Johannes_B yes

@DavidCarlisle Can you enlighten me, or him/her directly?

@Johannes_B I'm fighting temptation to give a one word reply "no", just because...

@DavidCarlisle Otherwise prepare for meaningless clutter

@DavidCarlisle I was lost when a package loaded a class. And why can the user define a class, an option list and a date?

@Johannes_B OP wants to define a command \foo{aaa}[option] but \newcommand only directly supports \foo[option]{aaa} so you need to define it in two stages (as the latex format always does) or use xparse (which makes it trivially easy)

@Johannes_B I think that was just an example, you can do \documentclass[something]{myclass}[2014/01/01] with an option at the end and OP wants to define a command with similar syntax

@Johannes_B why? because we defined it that way.

@DavidCarlisle A similar command that loads a class?

@Johannes_B no just a command with an option at the end

@1010011010 sorry I don't understand

@Johannes_B With xparse: \NewDocumentCommand{\foo}{mo}{...}

@Johannes_B all the class/package loading commands take a date option.

@DavidCarlisle Yeah I just didn't understand why amsmath would output that kind of message....

@egreg @DavidCarlisle Just wanted to type this :-)

There is no error, warning or anything

@Johannes_B Or {mO{default}} depending on intended usage.

@egreg I am still trying to figure out the purpose of all this.

@1010011010 no just an informational line sent to the log not the terminal

@Johannes_B the purpose of the OPs intended wrapper (which is not clear, but not relevant to the question) or the purpose of the date option to \LoadClass ?

@DavidCarlisle The wrapper stuff and The user of my package is a cls file.

@Johannes_B I assume it means that the intended usage is you are writing a new class and go \RequirePackage{thispackage} which then gives you helper macros to make writing a class file easier. So the macros defined in the package are intended for class authors not document authors

@DavidCarlisle It's in what is called the "console" (I run TeXworks)... but yeah I could always locally redefine \typeout:-)

Or whatever command it prompts...

@DavidCarlisle That could be possible.

Oh @DavidCarlisle I'm pretty sure you know this one... I'm \smashing my caption since I'm lazy, there's no way to retrieve the "would-be" height of the \smashed box afterwards, right?

As in, \ht\lastbox or something won't do anything?

@1010011010 you could unbox the contents and re-set in a new box and measure that but using \smash in a caption sounds so wrong I hardly want to think about it.

@1010011010 sorry it is sent to the terminal (after a few decades apparently I just don't see it:-)

@DavidCarlisle It's sort of a workaround to mimic \tlap and \blap...

And it's not smash inside a caption, it's the caption itself which is smashed, anyhow....

home time, back later...

@1010011010 -- the rationale for this message can be determined by looking into amsmath.dtx or the corresponding .pdf. to wit, "Documentation for the amsmath package is found in amsldoc.dvi (or .pdf or .tex)." and "Note: Using the first edition of The LaTeX Companion (1994) without errata as a guide for amsmath use is not recommended." that's because the first edition of the companion had totally erroneous information on amsmath (timing problem). long overdue for revision, but ...

@barbarabeeton My copy of the first edition has the “edited chapter”: I printed it and cut in the same format of the book, stapled the pages and inserted them in the proper place.

@egreg -- yes, that was possible, but most people didn't. (we know that you actually pay attention to instructions most of the time. unlike "most people".)

@egreg Wow!

@ArthurReutenauer The fact they have to be 'rearranged'?

@JosephWright Not rearranged as in reordered, but replaced (in some instances), yes.

@barbarabeeton I had to! My lecture notes were full of @ after I switched from \usepackage{amstex} to \usepackage{amsmath} ;-) The change from the handy @>f>> notation to the cumbersome \xrightarrow{f}.

Is this too trolling for the arara manual? :)

@PauloCereda :-D If i would sit in the library right now, i would be once again the guy that laughs without control in the library.

@Johannes_B <3 That looks like a yes. :P

@PauloCereda yes

@DavidCarlisle I'll do it. :)

@egreg -- that's the price paid for using latex.

@PauloCereda -- shriek!

@PauloCereda <3

@barbarabeeton :)

@SeanAllred <3

@PauloCereda I wouldn't.

@PauloCereda Perhaps add a \thanks footnote :)

...with Microsoft Word\thanks{Surely, I jest. :)}

@DavidCarlisle Copyright issues?

@PauloCereda yes mostly, and they spread outwards if it gets distributed in texlive by tug etc, it's not a joke if you annoy corporate lawyers.

@DavidCarlisle sigh very good point

@DavidCarlisle Got it, thanks. :)

@SeanAllred the world we live in

@DavidCarlisle double sigh

@SeanAllred it'll be alright once King Kaveh rules the world.

@DavidCarlisle hail

@DavidCarlisle Will there be a duck army?

@PauloCereda A friend of mine suggests using a mangled paperclip instead of the logo

@SeanAllred ooh that's deliciously evil.

@PauloCereda I'll pass along the compliment :)

@PauloCereda yearoftheduck.com/quack-troops

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@PauloCereda I suspect the author of that site is you under a pseudonym, who else would aim to post one duck drawing per day for a year....

LOLOLOLOL

I never get comments like that from the regulars here:(

@DavidCarlisle -- face it. we're jaded.

@DavidCarlisle Not fast enough. :)

@barbarabeeton Isn't it weird though to use the terminal without the using prompting anything? I don't know but ... it just feels awkward

@1010011010 why is it any more weird than say tex producing:

$ tex \\end
This is TeX, Version 3.14159265 (TeX Live 2015) (preloaded format=tex)
No pages of output.
Transcript written on texput.log.

@DavidCarlisle Because all of that information is unconditionally relevant.

@1010011010 -- i guess i just accept this now as comparable to the report of the package date and version (and location from which the file is read; all of those appear on my screen when i compile a job). i've already said that the package is overdue for an update, but that's not likely to happen soon.

@1010011010 who is it relevant to? and are they not people who might find the existence of an option relevant? the actual amsmath message is fairly pointless now, but I don't see anything wrong with packages using \typeout for any information they want to give.

@DavidCarlisle The produced document from the source code is a snapshot of the functionality provided by the packages, the distribution, version of TeX, hacks, and the likes. Amsmath prompting whether I want more information on the other hand, is, as you pointed out, "fairly pointless". You might as well \typeout the whole documentation while at it...

@1010011010 well that's rather the point, the full documentation texdoc amsmath doesn't mention ? it's an added extra:-)

@1010011010 don't think of it as documentation think of it as run time logging that the ? option was not used. The fact that the use or not of ? makes no real difference is a reasonable complaint, but not that the use of an option causes (or suppresses) a message.

@DavidCarlisle The use of an option? I didn't select anything..?

@1010011010 exactly the message changes depending whether or not you use the option ?

@JosephWright I got to meet with Shrock today

@Canageek Cool: how is he?

@JosephWright Surprisingly nice given what I'd heard. Very down to earth.

@Canageek Sounds good

\documentclass[border=10pt]{standalone}
\usepackage{Alegreya}
\begin{document}
\LaTeX{} $\leftarrow$ this looks ugly
\end{document}

Should anybody be informed about this? ^^^^^^

@Johannes_B Happens: the logograph set up is tied to CM

@JosephWright I was just thinking of packing a redef in the package, but this wouldn't be a good idea either.

Can we have LaTeX as a ligature?

@Johannes_B this is the case in many fonts

@yo' I never saw something that ugly.

@Johannes_B \LaTeX could test for the current font of course

@yo' Dealing with the whole otf-stuff, that would be something for L3 and somebody with lots of spare time.

@Johannes_B indeed. The code need not be too difficult, the difficult part is providing the right tweaks for every single font in every single variant :)

@yo' Jep. Or the LaTeX Font catalogue could provide a customized version of \LaTeX.

@Johannes_B look at ltnews.cls most of it consists of defining \LaTeX just for the few fonts supported there :( stupid logo anyway.

@DavidCarlisle Yey, fun. So many logos.

@yo' the latex2e version works a lot better than the 2.09 version with non cm fonts, 2.09 just shifted everything by fixed amounts at least in 2e it measures the height of T

@DavidCarlisle ah

@JosephWright ^^

@Johannes_B -- the problems with the logos has been known for a very long time. see knuth's article "The TeX logo in various fonts"

@barbarabeeton Ah, thanks, i'll read it in a bit. :-)

@barbarabeeton Quite an interesting read. :-)

@egreg that's twice this evening:-)

@DavidCarlisle Because we've been around long enough to see these beauties: :)

@SeanAllred not everyone can have my natural artistic talent, it is true.

@DavidCarlisle Our reverence for you precludes us from speaking so cavalierly :)

@SeanAllred Thanks for pointing me out where to find the airplane to be used in my latest project, since I was going to implement all answers by @DavidCarlisle in it anyway :-)

@DavidCarlisle Doing things faster than you? Well, you are slow.

@egreg I spend the time preparing your way priming the OP with comments to get a proper MWE:-)

@SeanAllred "reverence" ? ^^^^^

@DavidCarlisle We hold you in such high regard for your inspired abilities that we find it difficult to speak to you :)

(I jest, except perhaps for your abilities, inspired or no :))

@SeanAllred .... apart from @egreg is what I mean:-)

@egreg is something a rival

@SeanAllred s/rival/pale imitation/

@DavidCarlisle :P

@DavidCarlisle I've always imagined @egreg as quite tan. Being from Italy, and all that jazz.

@DavidCarlisle I left the Scale=1.7 question to you.

@SeanAllred no, he really is a green square

@DavidCarlisle XD

@egreg not sure how to answer that, to be honest. Is "don't start from here" an acceptable answer.

@SeanAllred Hmm, no: if I go to the beach and don't use a very high protection factor cream, I become quite like a tomato.

@egreg That is unfortunate. Are you at least a ripe tomato?

@SeanAllred Almost ripe.

@egreg :)

Someone put a +150 bounty on the color question I wrote for LaTeX3 O.O

1) Always use pale colours.

2) That's it. Now your document is beautiful.

@1010011010 You know that isn't true :)

@Manuel Thanks for that spot-check :)

@egreg made an attempt

@SeanAllred No problem :)

@JosephWright Two small things: why are there \cs_if_free:NTF and \cs_if_exist:NTF? Aren't they the same but with changed TF-FT branches? In any case, shouldn't it be \cs_if_exists:NTF with an “s” at the end of “exists”?

@Manuel can't remember but it may be historical, the equivalent tests in 2e are not inverses of each other (\@ifdefinable and \@ifundefined)

@Manuel I remember a discussion about this; IIRC, the two functions were doing slightly different things, but eventually became exact opposites of one another.

@DavidCarlisle And \@ifdefinable has just one branch.