@TorbenGundtofte-Bruun Ha Ha! Boy it is weird to vote to close something and automatically have it put on hold (wish I could choose to be less moderator-ish and vote like before some of the time, but have the moderator power when it is really needed too) - this is going to take some getting used to.
@TorbenGundtofte-Bruun I bet. It isn't so much understanding as just, well, leaving it for the community to vote upon. I'm sure it is one of those balance things - both you and B have mentioned waiting a bit on occasion to see what the community does with things first - I think that was more along the lines of my thinking.
How are things? Settling into the new house and having it start to really feel like your own yet?
@balancedmama It's fun that a few things work differently when you'er a mod - voting is one of these where you'll just have to hang back and watch what the community thinks of the post. Mod votes carry more weight so I regularly kept away from those and did other things instead.
@balancedmama New house is wonderful :-)
Still lots of small projects to finish, like kids' toy drawer organization, kitchen ceiling lamp, electricity in the garage, and other minor stuff. Been living here for a ½ year already and it's all just the way we wanted it to be. Oh, things could be bigger, sure, but this way we kept within our budget. I just did a complete financial review this weekend, and our total net worth is actually higher now than when we had an apartment, despite the mortgage. Yay!
@TimPost As soon as you know the size and shape of the lot, you can start planning. We spend a LONG time getting the financing in place and we used that time for extensive planning. I think lots of people start construction too fast ("why wait?") and run into unforeseen details later on.
There's so incredibly many details to attend to! Just details like, what height above the floor do you want the power outlets? How far from the door do you want the light switch? (Far enough to not interfere with the door frame and internal wall structure, but not so far as to no longer be "next to the door".)
It's ridiculous what kind of details you'll have to live with forever if you don't even realize in advance what you need to think of.
Talk to lots of people. Show your plans to lots of people. Listen - don't argue. Revise your plans selectively. And be mindful of the cost - better to have money left over at the end, than needing another 35.000 to finish and not having it. The mortgage is going to be present for lots of years; make sure it won't break you.
@TorbenGundtofte-Bruun I've got some plans underway that (by square meter) should meet our budget exactly, so we'll actually be shopping lots with the idea of fitting that particular design on it.
If we do this, I'll die in that house, so I want it to be exactly the way that I want it.
@TimPost we did the same; several walls are that exact size in order to fit specific furniture we had in mind. For instance, on kitchen wall is 3,02 meters so it can fit 5 * 60cm IKEA cabinets (plus 2 cm to spare for fitting). During house construction, we noticed that one wall was only 1,99 but was supposed to be 2,02 and we had that corrected before it got expensive. Oh boy, you really need to triple-check the work that is done!
@TimPost I've moved about 20 times in my life, and that's only counting the moves where I officially changed my address. I say this is the last time I'll ever move, save perhaps for the last one into a retirement home but that's the scale I'm working on. Which is why I pay attention to details -- I have to live with the result the rest of my life!!
also: square meter? I assumed you were in the USA and didn't expect you to use metric just for my benefit. This global intarwebtubespherblag thing is fun :-)
@TorbenGundtofte-Bruun Heheh, I live in Manila (The Philippines) - I'm originally from the US (Baltimore), I've been here about ten years. The metric system just sort of grew on me.
@TorbenGundtofte-Bruun My Dad is a carpenter by trade so the minute he has walked into almost any of the places I've lived he starts noticing details that "could have been" done diferently. Even down to things like the switch closest to the door is the one for the porch light and the next switch is the one for the interior light closest to the door - haven't had the opportunity to design my own house yet - but YES crazy amounts of detailsl to consider.
@TimPost Metric System is so much easier to use - I really don't know why we're so locked into it in the US. I used to get my weather from the Canadian Broadcasting Coorporation so when I moved to college (that wasn't on the border), it was a bit of a shock actually on the weather front.
@balancedmama Going from F to C was a little odd for me at first without a reference point, but now it's pretty natural. I think in meters, centimeters, grams, kilograms for the most part now. It's like I have to think harder in order to think of things in the US system.
I can (for some reason) more easily visualize a liter than a gallon or a pint.
That's so funny. With my biology background and having taught science, even here in the states I use metrics more than standard - except in the home and for travel and I still feel the way you do - I have to work just a bit harder to remember conversion factors and all of it in Standard.
Except with weather as well now I've fully converted.
Well, off to start the day - school is back in session, so I have to get the girl up so she can start her lessons.
Sorry, couldn't help myself :-) No offense meant. I saw that chart once and it just makes so much sense - it's so easy to work with, instead of looking for a three-and-seven-sixteenth pipe fitting. Honestly, who thinks like that?
wha'? I can't up-arrow to edit my posts anymore? Waaaahh! I want my mod powers back :-)
I meant to link to this illustration instead, it's got more details.
Of course, the metric system is ultimately arbitrarily based on the number of fingers humans happen to have. The U.S. system has features that make it nice for every day types of measuring. For example, try dividing a meter into 3 exactly equal pieces. The Fahrenheit scale gives a nice resolution for temperatures humans typically encounter.
The metric system has features that make it nice for scientific endeavours, such as easier conversions between orders of magnitude. Yes, I'm biased from growing up here, but I'm glad to live in a country where we use the best of both in the appropriate situation.
@KarlBielefeldt I do like Fahrenheit for general use, but the dividing measurements by 3 is countered by "try dividing a foot into exactly 5 equal pieces".
Are you pulling my leg, @KarlBielefeldt? You can mention any system and suggest to divide it into an arbitrary number of equal parts. I support Beofetts response. But I agree that the metric system is conveniently based on the decimal system and I'm sure if homo sapiens had had eight digits then we'd all prefer to count in octal. Whatever base you happen to prefer, isn't it most convenient that each factor increase has the same number?
I don't see the convenience of the Imperial system when a "cup" doesn't actually mean the size of one of my cups, or an ounce is different depending on whether the material is in a liquid or solid state. A kilogram of ice weighs the same as a kilogram of water...?
@Beofett @TorbenGundtofte-Bruun "rolling back valid edits to your posts just because you don't like the idea of other people editing your content is not appropriate. Rolling back style changes is one thing. Rolling back spelling corrections is another, and is not appropriate."
@TorbenGundtofte-Bruun The thing is, for day to day usage, you rarely have to do factor increases. When I'm driving somewhere, I don't need to know how many feet per mile, the mile is sized appropriately for the task. If I'm doubling a recipe where a tablespoon is an appropriately-sized unit, working in multiples of 15 mL is kind of awkward, even if it is mathematically elegant.
I love the metric system when conversions are common, like in science, but it makes for awkward, odd quantities in every day tasks like recipes.
"So contrary to what many people may think, the U.S. uses the metric system now to define all basic units used in commerce and trade. At the same time, if the metric system and U.S. customary system are languages of measurement, then the United States is truly a bilingual nation."
@monsto Thanks. I think there's a difference between reverting things like formatting or even grammar, if you prefer a colloquial style, to actual spelling. Some parts of the edit in question I would be okay with you reverting (even if I personally prefer you did not), but the changes that were clearly corrections (particularly the spelling of Benadryl) should remain.
I had to step away and chill for a bit. My message is clearly not being seen.
Here's how the age of a post is relevant: If a post has survived in the wild for a significant amount of time, is clarification needed? It's been here, it had active discussion, there's no "what are you talking about?" comments. Does it need editing? No.
Here's how a person's rep is relevant: If I have 100 from account xfer and 4 upvotes in 2 weeks, and this post has survived in it's present form with comments from people with more tenur than I, should I be the one editing it? No.
'If a post has survived in the wild for a significant amount of time, is clarification needed? It's been here, it had active discussion, there's no "what are you talking about?" comments. Does it need editing? No.'
@monsto As I believe I expressed in the meta discussion... there is no real qualitative improvement to a user's edits based upon the duration of participation.
@monsto I thought you weren't focusing on clarification at all....
I really don't want to get into a discussion here. I've said what I think on the topic in the meta thread. So I'll summarize, briefly, the key points, as I see it:
Formatting changes may or may not improve the quality of a post.
Saying "I've been here longer", or "this user hasn't participated enough" or "this post is old" doesn't in any way impact whether such edits improve the quality of the post or not; the edits should be judged purely on their own merits.
People read the post, it was active, it was obvious that it was understood. For a long time. Did it need clarification? I say no, your points in meta say that it did.
Look . . . I understand that "gettin where you're goin" in quotes is different than without quotes. that would improve the post. I agree Benadryl, vs benedryl.
I disagree mostly with the individuals assessment that they should take into their own hands the need to fix something that wasn't perceived a broken by a community that they weren't a part of at the time of the post.
Monsto, I've actually had a similar discussion on another site, where I felt that edits were being made gratuitously. I started a meta discussion that was very much on "your side of the fence".
Here's my suggestion, which I think is relevant here.
We should not be going through posts actively looking for opportunities to improve them. Rather, edits to other users' content should only be made when we spot a problem.
If you do see room for improvement that doesn't involve an actual problem (for what constitutes a "problem", see below), yo...
@monsto If someone feels that they should take it into their own hands the need to fix something, then by definition the community does perceive it as broken.
We have almost 2000 questions on our site. We're averaging more than 3 answers per question. A single post sitting for months without edits doesn't imply that the entire community thinks its perfect. It may just not be getting much visibility amidst all the other content.
Only thing I'm asking, which I basically stated in meta, is that people that dis/approve edits are more discerning about proposed edits rather than blankly accepting it "yeah looks good"
Additionally, as one of the two people who approved the edit that triggered this, I will say that I did not just see an edit and say "yeah looks good". I looked at it, saw that there were valid improvements, and approved it. I would not give a different review even if I spent 5 minutes considering it.
I do reject edits as "too trivial" when I see them.
@monsto I'm sorry that the edit upset you so much. I'm honestly trying to figure out some way of approaching this that won't result in you feeling angry when someone edits a post of yours.
Let me ask you this: If you had seen the edit, and the only thing in the edit was the change from "benedryl" to "Benadryl", would you still have been upset?
@monsto Yes. Some of the edits more than others, but there was nothing that I saw in there that made the post worse, and several things that I felt improved it.
@monsto That seems to be based on the argument that "if no one fixed it, that means everyone thinks it's fine". Which I don't agree is a valid line of reasoning.
@monsto So if only 2 people bothered to read it, and one of them wasn't really confident in their grasp of the English language, and therefore wasn't sure if it was valid or not (but they found it confusing), then you feel that that is evidence that it is "good enough"?
Because you're assuming that every post gets sufficient visibility, and that every person reading a post is just as likely to fix something that they perceive as a problem, instead of skipping on.
No i don't agree with that. I think that requiring that 1) a person has been active in this community for 'a while' and that 2) well... clarity or improvement is highly subjective.
@monsto Please clarify... you feel that we should require that any edits should only be suggested by people who have been "active in this community a while"?
Or do you feel that that general guideline (members of the community who have built sufficient reputation are allowed to approve edits) is too subjective to use?
I'm going to have to sign off in a few minutes. I'll try to check back in later, but I may not be able to rejoin chat until tomorrow.
As I said above, that person took it upon themselves when they really didn't know much about the board. It's like a supervisor walking on-site to a house under construction and starting to bark orders. . . having no idea why people are doing what.
You know what, there's no need to go point by point. and the convo can be done.
I really would like to find some way to keep you happy with your participation.
I get that you have a style of writing that you prefer, and you don't want random people "fixing" it if you don't agree it is broken.
I also believe you recognize that sometimes there are legitimate errors that can be fixed (e.g. "Benadryl").
What I'm having a hard time coming up with is what would solve this.
The site is based on the premise that community editing is good.
Users are encouraged to make as many improvements as possible when making an edit.
I think we agree that some of those improvements may be subjective.
What would fix this, from your perspective? Changing the wording to request that only the most basic changes are made?
Changing the review process?
Raising the rep requirements (that will happen automatically when we graduate)?
Part of the problem is that even if we agree to something on meta, we have limited participation there.
There's no guarantee that everyone with sufficient rep to approve edits will see any meta discussion (in fact, I'd argue that it's almost guaranteed some won't).
So if we agree on subjective guidelines, there will be approving/rejecting on different subjective guidelines.
I'm open to any suggestion you might have as to what would work to fix this.
Because I was pinged earlier, I just want to say this: I agree with and support Beofett's point of view. All of the edits were correct, and improved the quality of the site's content. I can see that it crimped your style and I understand that this bothers you, I respect that. But keep in mind this is a community. If you want to safeguard your own style, put up a personal blog and link to it from here. Hell, if it's good content, I'll link to it myself!
@TorbenGundtofte-Bruun @monsto, I agree as well, but see how annoying it is when there are a bunch of edits close together - particularly to old posts. I agree some care needs to be taken when editing occurs to attempt to leave the same tone as well and sometimes grammatical corrections can change the tone of a post as well. I don't think anyone here wants to see you leave over this, and we can certainly keep your thoughts on the matter in mind - in particular when approving edits to your posts.
That is, those of us that have read about your thoughts on meta and here in chat.
We do have to rely on people becoming somewhat aware of community standards by being aware of the community "rules" as established on meta and can't really enforce anything the greater community doesn't want enforced. I don't see reason to change the programming itself to allow fewer people the ability to edit - if that is even possible at this time.
I certainly will promise you that I will attempt not to alter style or tone of the posts I edit, and will attempt not to approve edits that change the style or tone of someone's post either. In complete frankness, I already consider these things when looking at something (and did before becoming a moderator yesterday as well) because I consider it a slight change in meaning.
I admit I am not aware of which edit you are specifically referring to however, and improvements in grammar (including expanding abbreviations) are generally just that - an improvement.
The policy of "minor fixing" of posts is nebulous at best. It is on most SE sites. I'm fine with that. It's generally taken as "live and let live" by most users.
What I do have a problem with is when people that are new to this particular forum see fit to play Mrs Biddle the 4th grade grammar te...
Thanks, I was familiar with the meta post, but it seems some of monsto's posts were edited and that is what triggered the meta post etc. etc. . . .
Of course, I managed to miss the link to the actual edits themselves embedded in the meta post though - seriously, I am as ADD as my daughter!
:13050225
I only saw one edit, and that particular edit doesn't seem to have changed anything in the way of style or tone and I would have approved as well, but I can still relate to the general idea behind monsto's arguments - it is definitely a problem with subjectivity and I still stand by my statement that I am personally happy to consider tone and style changes as being generally good to avoid when possible, but clarity is going to win out over a lack of clarity in the end.
@KarlBielefeldt I finally remembered to get back to the post about your six-year-old and his social skills. I wanted to think about how I would answer more before just answering and then the holidays hit and I forgot to come back and offer my thoughts (as this is an area where I definitely have a different perspective to offer) sorry it took so long though.
@balancedmama Well, your answer was timely enough, because he isn't "cured" yet :-) I really like the asperger's angle. While I think his problems are more ADHD-related as far as a medical diagnosis, I have found that therapies often carry over very well across different diagnoses.
I'm looking forward to doing some more research on asperger's therapy and see if it can help those particular parts of his personality.
Frequently kids don't exhibit just one "syndrome" either. ADHD is one that often is actually a symptom of other syndromes that partner with it - Asperger's is one.
However, you "solve" things, I'm always glad to be helpful. Like I said, sorry I didn't get the info to you sooner.
Good point. Sometimes one really strong disorder can make it hard to see the others. We recently realized my daughter has some autistic characteristics, but we never really noticed because of her cerebral palsy.
In the high school class the kids actually watched a variety of soap operas and TV shows as practice in identifying cues to identify emotions being expressed. The soaps actors are so - over the top in their expressions it was a little less subtle than in "real-life" so it made for good practice. I always thought that was pretty funny.
You know, I need to go look at your profile. How many kids do you have? It must be a busy household. Especially when you are coping with cerebral palsy.
that was a finish to the whole "can't be easy" comment.
I just have the one seven year old at this point, but I also nanny an infant and a very busy three year old every day.
I think you know I am a fellow homeschooler and we are in the process of getting started with fostering.
so the family will grow soon I hope.
I also taught middle school science for eight years, had a little experience in a coulple of other grades along the way and taught preschool for two years as well.
Frankly, I think if a kid is already switching homes, it isn't a good idea to force a drastic change in their schooling at the same time too anyway - but, if, after an adoption is complete, it seems right to change schooling situations for either my current kid or a future kid, we will make the change.
Also, there are programs that are considered public schools because they are officially "charter schools" but they are really part time programs where kids attend a mortar and brick like setting part of the week but also have some of the education take place at home each week too.
Might be able to do that - if it seems right for a kid that will become a permanent placement.
@KarlBielefeldt We live in a pretty populated area, so I'm hoping that won't have to be the case for these kids - if it is, again we'll cross that bridge as needed. I don't have a lot of experience with this state's "stuff" yet, but from growing up the way I did, I know the more you think you have a plan
The less likely it is that your plan will actually work out. :-)
My parents did fostering in Washington State, so I grew up around it.
The weirdest things throw off how you think it will be, though. For example, our permanent kids' pediatrician refused to see the foster kids because she didn't accept medicaid.
We should not be going through posts actively looking for opportunities to improve them. Rather, edits to other users' content should only be made when we spot a problem.
If you do see room for improvement that doesn't involve an actual problem (for what constitutes a "problem", see below), yo...
