Jaami'at StackExchange al-Islamyya - 2017-05-14

« first day (1789 days earlier) ← previous day next day → last day (2558 days later) »

5:46 PM

0

Q: Isn't the tag 'tafsir' synonymous to the tag 'tafseer'?

We have two tags which sound the same and mean the same. They are: tafsir tafseer They are the same word but just spelt differently as there is no direct spelling of an Arabic word in English. For example, some people say assalamu alaykum and others say assalaamu alaikum. Question: Isn't...

People of Jannah (Surah Yasin) - Nouman Ali Khan - Part 11

1 hour later…

7:04 PM

Hey @G.Bach if you have some time I really hope you watch the above series. Each video is about 20 min.

7:20 PM

@Casanova cheers, but i dont think i'll get anything out of it

You might ;)

not a fan of lectures, i prefer text; and that guy is pretty bad

lol

1 hour later…

8:48 PM

Hmm How come ZamZam water never runs out?

9:08 PM

Oh and I forgot to mention that is in the middle of a dry desert ;)

@Casanova See this: quora.com/Why-doesnt-the-holy-water-Zam-Zam-in-Mecca-ever-end

it replenishes itself through an acquifer, like most wells

For centuries?

yes

rainfall replenishes the acquifer, like it does everywhere else

Ah rainfall. Yeah what mecca are you talking about lol?

Btw we are talking about 690 Millions liters of Zamzam being pumped in 24 hours

9:25 PM

the mecca in saudi arabia

Climate of Mecca en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Mecca

"Rain usually falls in Mecca in small amounts"

yeah i can see that

rain also falls in small amounts in other desert cities, and they have wells too that support millions of people

sure but it last for centuries?

Btw we are talking about billions of people, not millions

yes, desert cities have often existed for millenia

no we arent

yes we are

9:28 PM

not in the course of a day or even a year

yeah

alright, what evidence do you have for that

for the billions thing?

yeah

i meant yeah for your statement. Billions as through out the centuries

9:30 PM

well obviously

even that is a bit of a statement

but it could be true

but that says nothing about how it replenishes itself o_=

*o_0

That is why I wonder how it replenishes itself lol

an acquifer

jeddah probably draws from the same acquifer, its not that far

how does that acquifer gets filled?

i dont know if theres a bedrock barrier between jeddah and mecca, but unless there is one, they will probably draw from the same source

with rainfall

An aquifer is an underground layer of water-bearing permeable rock, rock fractures or unconsolidated materials (gravel, sand, or silt) from which groundwater can be extracted using a water well. The study of water flow in aquifers and the characterization of aquifers is called hydrogeology. Related terms include aquitard, which is a bed of low permeability along an aquifer, and aquiclude (or aquifuge), which is a solid, impermeable area underlying or overlying an aquifer. If the impermeable area overlies the aquifer, pressure could cause it to become a confined aquifer. == Depth == Aquifers may...

but as i told you very little rain falls in mecca

9:34 PM

that goes for jeddah too, but somehow youre not surprised they have water

in jeddah i think it is from rivers and oceans i believe

not rain

how do you think it works in how does it work in madinah

?

you seem to think theres something special about zamzam

like its completely different from other desert cities

i do

9:39 PM

why

because the prophet talked about it

oh so its not actually because you have any data that suggests anything special

just that its a hadith

It contains more calcium and magnesium than the other wells.

Even though it never been treated with chemicals but it contains fluorides which can prevent bacteria growth and beneficial for health without any water treatment.
It has always maintained same salt composition and taste.

Even if you keep it still in a bottle or something for a long time, it will remain clear and appropriate for consumption.

It will never run out and always fulfill the requirement .

It has never overflowed.

yeah ive seen quora, that has zero references

thats a random muslim on the internet posting whatever

lol you say so

9:44 PM

well what evidence do you have that any of this is true, or somehow different to other desert cities

Most spring waters were found to have a relatively low calcium concentration, with an average of 21.8 mg/L. Purified waters contain a negligible calcium concentration.
According to wikipedia zamzam has 96 mg/L

where is this from "Most spring waters were found to have a relatively low calcium concentration"

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2488164

did you even read what that said

"The calcium concentration of water varies from 1 to 135 mg/L across the USA and Canada"

we are talking about spring waters

9:53 PM

how much of a given mineral/element is in water depends on what rocks they flow through, how much of that element is in the ground in that region

ok so you are now convinced that it has more calcium than other spring waters?

it has more calcium than some other springs in completely different regions of the world

yeah

so?

so? you wanted proof and there you have it

10:00 PM

alright, and how does that make it special

does a high calcium content make other springs special too?

it is special for me at least lol

sgs.org.sa/english/earth/pages/zamzam.aspx

"The annual discharge from the well is restricted to around 500,000 m3. However, this limit can be modified if hydrological condition so permit. For example, due to last year 's high rainfall the augmented aquifer recharge allowed proposed production increase by about 92000 m3 for the year 1432 AH. "

thats the official institution in saudi arabia describing whats going on

they're saying a) they control the water so it doesnt run dry and b) that it gets replenished via an aquifer that's itself replenished by rainfall

what is m3?

its m^3, cubic meters

a cubic meter is 1000 liters

so, 500 000 000 liters

per year

so it is not 690 million a hour lol?

10:05 PM

of course not

that would be ridiculous

they just don't make miracles like they used to anymore. :(

:(

they do them exactly the same goldpseudo : P

well maybe more involved trickery

what do you mean?

i mean they dont make miracles

10:18 PM

I am going for umrah in the first day of ramadan if you want to come with me Bach hahaha

have fun!

Mustapha Elbazi

@Casanova he is not allowed to get into . i think :)

lol he still has time to convert :P

why would i do that o_0

Mustapha Elbazi

you will not know until u do !

(:

10:21 PM

(:

Mustapha Elbazi

if you know why , you would convert now

then theres no reason to

Mustapha Elbazi

i mean : you will know why before converting :)

well sure if anyone starts making sense of islam, but that seems unlikely

why doesnt it make sense? we dont have the god is three but one thing lol

Mustapha Elbazi

10:23 PM

one of the sahaba said about umar :
umar will not accept until his donkey do

and he is the second caliphate in Islam :)

free will & qadr, evolution, sorcery, most of the criminal law, lots of ahadith, a lot of the stuff that science-in-the-quran apologists say, its got no more going for it than any other religion, hell and paradise vs justice,...

there's no shortage of things in islam that i cant see anyone making sense of

Imam Zaid didnt help you with the free will and qadr?

who?

Zaid lol

Mustapha Elbazi

10:27 PM

he didin't like "imam " :P

nope

no i just dont know if theres some imam i dont know

haha i call him imam

Mustapha Elbazi

bach i don't find evolution logical
am i wrong ?

yeah pretty sure

it doesnt make sense mustapha

Mustapha Elbazi

10:28 PM

okey , i just wanted to know

i cant help you with specifics since im not a biologist, but if you have any somewhat general questions, maybe i can help you out

even darwin said he doesnt have proof

Mustapha Elbazi

if it's fine to not believing in evolution

its pretty irrelevant what darwin said, what matters is what the evidence says

Mustapha Elbazi

i am not a biologist

10:29 PM

not if you care about evidence mustapha

Mustapha Elbazi

but i can understand big theories

well it is his theory lol

if you dont care about evidence then its also fine to not believe in gravity or electromagnetism or heliocentrism or bacteria

Mustapha Elbazi

specially when it's talking about the roots

do you thing that i believe in gravity lol (:

thats the thing with science casanova, no one owns it, and no one is an authority; theres just experts and evidence

i dunno mustapha, do you?

10:31 PM

but gravity and the other things you mentioned was approved by all scientists. Not the same for evolution

find any topic in science where some major religion says "nuh-uh thats not how it goes", and you automatically got a bunch of trained scientists disagreeing with it because they prefer their religious beliefs over the conclusions arrived at by the scientific method

Mustapha Elbazi

i thing i am wrong

but believing in something like gravity

is not easy to follow all the people

and evolution is so well subscribed by biologists all over the world, they arent even looking for evidence anymore, just like no one is looking for evidence of electromagnetism anymore

Mustapha Elbazi

maybe one day you will be shocked

sure, could be; but if there is a shock, it'll be one that conforms perfectly to all the evidence we have now

10:34 PM

ok and how do you thing the apes came into existence?

Mustapha Elbazi

my bbelieve is that gravity is just an Try to interpret what is happening
it may be totally wrong . but it's good for us now :)

groundbreaking scientific revolutions dont overturn completely what was before them; the things it got right stick, and the details it got wrong get refined

Mustapha Elbazi

i am not trying to be stupid

i encourage people to study those things

@Casanova they evolved from other animals

Mustapha Elbazi

even evolution

10:36 PM

and how did those animals came into existence?

@Casanova evolved from other life forms

Mustapha Elbazi

but don't believe in it like it's a reality
specially sometthing Mysterious like evolution

how did those other life forms came into existence?

@MustaphaElbazi evolution is not mysterious, the very fine details are, but the overall process is very well understood

@Casanova you mean the very first ones? dont know

Mustapha Elbazi

@G.Bach so why it's not easy to be explained

10:37 PM

Exactly. God created them

Mustapha Elbazi

to simple people

@MustaphaElbazi it can be explained in rough ideas, i'll try if you like

@Casanova "i dont know, therefore god" is about the worst non-sequitur ever

hahaha but it makes sense

@Casanova it makes as much sense as "i dont know, therefore the flying spaghetti monster"

lol

but there must be a creator

10:39 PM

why

Mustapha Elbazi

nop i am interesting now . i am sorry
I will try with it after studying some biology inshae allah

otherwise nothing would have come to existence

Mustapha Elbazi

i am not *

you are writing very fast guys

@Casanova how do you know anything came into existence

why cant it just have always been

Mustapha Elbazi

bach . i am sure you have seen the video about those people who were asked about evolution

10:41 PM

@MustaphaElbazi alright, feel free to ask questions about it, maybe open a chatroom if you do so we dont spam here in case it annoys people

could also recommend a book for it

i'm not annoyed. just having trouble keeping my inner snark in check.

lol

let the snark flow through you dude

Mustapha Elbazi

but their is Opponents of it afak

how do you think earth came into existence?

Mustapha Elbazi

10:42 PM

@goldPseudo what about evolution
what do u think ?

@MustaphaElbazi theres also opponents of gravity, a round earth, and people with phds in math who think the real numbers are countable

@Casanova clumped together matter

Mustapha Elbazi

@G.Bach lol

and then separated?

Mustapha Elbazi

i should ask @RebeccaJ.Stones if she believe the same lol

the earth is still here, so no, didnt separate

10:43 PM

@MustaphaElbazi my own opinions are more preadamic than you're likely to find in mainstream Islamic thought.

but even then i only hold them so dear to my heart. like most of my "this happened countless millenia before i was born" opinions.

Mustapha Elbazi

@goldPseudo well , i have seen some preadamic opinions this week :)
i would n't mind to have more

i mostly believe that evolution happened more or less like the theory states. just because Adam was created from dust doesn't mean that there weren't other evolved chimps running around that looked like him.

haha

sorry didnt mean to laugh

@goldPseudo you mean kind of like if a person popped into existence now?

so Bach you say the universe had a beginning?

10:48 PM

@Casanova i dont know, the cosmologists arent sure

It does

Mustapha Elbazi

my english don't help me
you believe that evolution happen to some animals but adam was created as a complet human ?

@G.Bach Qur'an says that the creation of Jesus was miraculous in the same way the creation of Adam was; there were definitely other humans putzing around during Jesus' time.

im not looking to argue that, just curious

Mustapha Elbazi

well this is not so preadamic
i've hear of this last week

10:50 PM

Well Bach according to the Big Bang theory the universe does have a beginning

Mustapha Elbazi

@goldPseudo i don't know how did you get this idea from this verse ?

i lean towards Adam not being the first "human" per se, rather the first one complete with a soul or free will or whatever metaphysical divine whatnot makes us "special" rather than "animal".

but that's just personal opinion.

@Casanova afaik the "big bang" tells us nothing about whether there was a "before" or not

The Big Bang theory states that around 12-15 billion years ago the universe came into existence from one single extremely hot and dense point, and that something triggered the explosion of this point that brought about the beginning of the universe. The universe, since then, has been expanding from this single point.

and there are very prominent physicists who think reality might well be infinitely old

10:52 PM

so it has a beginning

Mustapha Elbazi

@goldPseudo are you sure it's personal . becaus i know many people believe the same !
i can give u arabic videos of famous characters saying the same thing !!

@MustaphaElbazi i didn't. i got the idea from my own knowledge and thought, the verse just doesn't contradict it.

@Casanova if you ask physicists very specific questions, like "does this mean there was nothing before that", then they'll say "hm not sure"

That is a very interesting point @goldPseudo!

> إن مثل عيسى عند الله كمثل آدم خلقه من تراب ثم قال له كن فيكون

Mustapha Elbazi

10:53 PM

@goldPseudo so what's happend to other people who were existing before adam !?

well, they're probably dead now. it was quite a while ago.

not according to Hubble @G.Bach

@Casanova hubble has been dead a while and didnt have the data we have

einstein was wrong about quantum mechanics

Mustapha Elbazi

but why they didn't just live with us !?

but the Big Bang theory is accepted by the vast majority of scientists and astronomers.

the universe does have a beginning. Allah says: He (God) is the Originator of the heavens and the earth

Mustapha Elbazi

10:55 PM

marry and having children like us !?

the question "does the universe have an infinite past" is not one that's clearly settled

@MustaphaElbazi who says they didn't? just because we're all descended from Adam doesn't mean non-Adamic humans weren't just doing their own thing like anyone else.

heres some very renowned physicists saying the universe could have an infinite past: youtube.com/watch?v=QqjsZEZMR7I

then Noah's flood kicks in and all that's left is the Adamic line.

especially starting at 32:22

but seriously casanova, if you actually care what the state of the art in physics is, you should ask physicists, not islamic scholars

10:57 PM

like you said there is a mathematician with phd believing real numbers are countable

Mustapha Elbazi

@goldPseudo i have heared the same idea from a man

i am telling you the Big Bang theory is accepted by the vast majority of scientists and astronomers.

Mustapha Elbazi

in a near village :)

yeah, and its easy to prove hes wrong; but other physicists actually agree that what those guys are saying is a reasonable interpretation of the data

by "hes wrong" i mean the guy who said the reals are countable

the guys who say "the universe could have an infinite past" are not called charlatans by other physicists, other physicists acknowledge that the data doesnt contradict that

so basically you dont believe in the big bang theory?

10:59 PM

and we get the big bang out of relativity and quantum mechanics (i think), but we know they cant both be right

Mustapha Elbazi

so @goldPseudo what about all those verses

im saying i know too little about physics, let alone the state of the art discourse about cosmology to say whether what ive got in my head is a good description of what we know

Mustapha Elbazi

that said that we come from adam and eve !?

lol...

and if people like alan guth and sean carroll and alan aguirre say the universe might have an infinite past, and other physicists say "they could be right, the data doesnt contradict that", then that probably means that theres not enough data to say one way or another decisively

11:01 PM

ok

@MustaphaElbazi what about them? everyone's descended from someone.

Second thing, the Big Bang theory states something triggered off the explosion that brought about the the universe right?

and what "the universe had a beginning" means in the big-bang sense ive seen explained by leading physicists as "the entropic development of the universe means that we can't get information about what was before the big bang, if anything"

no it doesnt

if the Flood killed off everyone who wasn't descended from Adam, then naturally everyone after that would be descended from Adam.

Mustapha Elbazi

@goldPseudo ah okey this is clear

11:03 PM

im not sure exactly what the issue is, but in the first moments after the big bang, causality and things like that just dont tell us anything

assuming there were even non-Adamic humans still around then. it's possible we just outlived all of them because we're better.

Mustapha Elbazi

but we weren't involved in evolution !?

if we weren't involved in evolution, we'd all look the same.

everyone would just be an Adam clone.

@goldPseudo evolution could have happened after noah's flood?

@Casanova how long ago do you think noahs flood was

11:06 PM

centuries

Mustapha Elbazi

i mean bach's evolution -_- :P

you could be right @goldPseudo!!

Mustapha Elbazi

adam was a complete human

genetic diversity is all around. evolution is just a selective pressure which lets certain gene combinations promulgate and other ones die off.

Mustapha Elbazi

emm

i still don't have an answer

11:07 PM

@Casanova evolution takes way longer

Mustapha Elbazi

we were evoluted from adam who was a complete human ?

centuries is not long lol?

centuries is nothing for a species that has an average reproduction age in the decades

modern humans have been around for something like 100k-250k years

millennia then

are you just making stuff up now

Mustapha Elbazi

11:10 PM

@goldPseudo what about ahadith ?

@MustaphaElbazi what about them?

Mustapha Elbazi

they just support that their is no other human before adam

adak

afak *

According to wikipedia Noah's flood happened 5000 bc

1

Q: Do we have any information in Islam about who were on Earth before Adam?

I didn't find any implicit Verse showing us who were on earth before Adam. I think according to this verse [2:30] And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes c...

tafseer creation surat-al-baqarah

jinn were on earth @goldPseudo

Mustapha Elbazi

11:14 PM

what about this

i've not seen any hadiths which clearly and unambiguously state that there were no preadamic humans or human-like species flopping around. not saying they're not there, i just don't know them.

Mustapha Elbazi

وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْإِنسَانَ مِن سُلَالَةٍ مِّن طِينٍ (12) ثُمَّ جَعَلْنَاهُ نُطْفَةً فِي قَرَارٍ مَّكِينٍ (13) ثُمَّ خَلَقْنَا النُّطْفَةَ عَلَقَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْعَلَقَةَ مُضْغَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا ثُمَّ أَنشَأْنَاهُ خَلْقًا آخَرَ ۚ فَتَبَارَكَ اللَّهُ أَحْسَنُ الْخَالِقِينَ

(14) ثُمَّ إِنَّكُم بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ لَمَيِّتُونَ (15) ثُمَّ إِنَّكُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ تُبْعَثُونَ (16) وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا فَوْقَكُمْ سَبْعَ طَرَائِقَ وَمَا كُنَّا عَنِ الْخَلْقِ غَافِلِينَ (17)

@Casanova 7000 years is way too little time for human evolution

Mustapha Elbazi

in this verse allah is talking about humans

الانسان

yes.

how is it relevant?

Mustapha Elbazi

11:17 PM

is your non-adamic humans mentioned in this verse or not ?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Mustapha Elbazi

what is this ?

it's just describing how men are created.

Mustapha Elbazi

yes

but is non-adamic human made the same way

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Mustapha Elbazi

11:19 PM

or it's talking only about adamic ones

why wouldn't they be?

Mustapha Elbazi

??

i believe it was way before that though @G.Bach

how are cats made? how are chickens made? this is biology, not divine creation.

Mustapha Elbazi

because in other verses talking about this way of creation come after mentioning adam

11:20 PM

i don't see why preadamic humans would be made any differently than any biological creature.

Mustapha Elbazi

okey

they will be asked on day of judgement ?

@Casanova how long, and what leads you to that conclusin

i don't think so.

Mustapha Elbazi

but the verse say that those people who were made like adam will do :)

i would say a billion at least because noah came after adam and adam was the first human

11:22 PM

@Casanova there were no people a billion years ago

@Casanova there werent even trees a billion years ago

not even grass i think

@MustaphaElbazi Adam was special. the descendents of Adam were the ones who testified before they were born, not the preadamites.

or, if the preadamites had any covenant with the Almighty, we don't know of it.

there were creatures who lived in the earth about 2 billion years ago

bacteria-like things

nothing bigger

Mustapha Elbazi

so you don't thing they were mentioned in quran ?

> وإذ أخذ ربك من بني آدم من ظهورهم ذريتهم وأشهدهم على أنفسهم ألست بربكم قالوا بلى شهدنا أن تقولوا يوم القيامة إنا كنا عن هذا غافلين

i don't think so, no.

Mustapha Elbazi

11:26 PM

so all those verses are talking about adamics

but saying that they were humans is totally wrong

if preadamite man is extinct, not much point in talking about them.

the qur'an was a book of guidance to bring people to the right path, not a book of science to explain why 2% of your dna comes from neanderthals.

Mustapha Elbazi

i know my friend

but such believes is not simple !

i want to know if we can call them human

like do preadamist believers say here

because of this hadith

you'd have to define "human" first.

Mustapha Elbazi

wait to get the eng hadith

biologically, there'd be little to no difference.

Mustapha Elbazi

11:32 PM

sunnah.com/bukhari/97/141

i am using the difinition of human = بشر = انسان

who is used in quran to describe those creatures

so far as the quran and hadith are concerned, when they refer to انسان i see no reason to believe they're referring to preadamic man.

did noah carry any human with him?

@Casanova Isn't it well-established that he carried his sons and their wives?

he carried his son?

i might be mixing that with the israiliyyat record, in which that is clearly the case.

11:37 PM

his son didnt make it

one of his sons rejected.

And Noah called upon his Lord, and said: "O my Lord! surely my son is of my family! and Thy promise is

noah had four sons, as far as i know.

biblical record mentions three of them. doesn't mention the one that drowned.

> ونوحا إذ نادى من قبل فاستجبنا له فنجيناه وأهله من الكرب العظيم

noah's wife died

only one son is mentioned in the quran though

Mustapha Elbazi

afak as i know there is other sons

11:43 PM

not sure if the others were mentioned in the hadith or not. again, might just be israiliyyat.

the three sons of Noah are well-established in the biblical record.

qur'an does say that he brings his family and the believers with him though, except those who rejected.

> حتى إذا جاء أمرنا وفار التنور قلنا احمل فيها من كلّ زوجين اثنين وأهلك إلا من سبق عليه القول ومن آمن وما آمن معه إلا قليل

Mustapha Elbazi

so @goldPseudo انسان = بشر in the quran or not ?

@MustaphaElbazi i 'unno.

Mustapha Elbazi

well

i am still interesting in jesus verses

why it's used a lot by preadamists

?

i've never heard of this.

i don't claim to have any knowledge of what other preadamists think or believe. my opinions are my own.

Mustapha Elbazi

well they believe that other humans were mentioned in quran too

but they are totally wrong according to al-bukhari hadith

and to the verses

but your idea is better than them

11:47 PM

i have an interesting theory

Mustapha Elbazi

well , they reject ahadith easily

perhaps evolution happened after noah's flood?

Mustapha Elbazi

lol

bach's evolution need millions of year

@goldPseudo it seems you were right. He had 4 and one died

bach's evolution lol

Mustapha Elbazi

becaus i am not sure if it's the same Darwinian evolution

11:53 PM

evolution of one species to another is not a quick process. otherwise we'd've seen enough examples by now that nobody would be able to pull out the "evolution's just a theory" card.

yeah

@goldPseudo youll see that card being played regardless of the amount of evidence

flat earthers deny gravity and a round earth and say stuff like that

young earth creationists deny carbon dating and stuff like that

You are back :)

i was just watching, i got no skin in the doctrine game

aha ok

11:56 PM

@G.Bach muslims reject dating in general. maybe if you built your theory on evidence from carbon arranged marriages it would be accepted.

hahaha

it a question of knowing your audience.

So my grand father used to climb trees and eat bananas?

heck, I used to climb trees and eat bananas. climbing trees is fun.

i dont know your grandfather

11:59 PM

ahahhahah

« first day (1789 days earlier) ← previous day next day → last day (2558 days later) »

Transcript for

May '1714

Jaami'at StackExchange al-Islamyya

General discussion for islam.stackexchange.com

fiqh hadith quran

join this room
about this room

00:00

06:00

12:00

18:00

all times are UTC

site design / logo © 2024 Stack Exchange Inc; legal

mobile