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Jack Douglas
Jack Douglas
9:49 AM
@muslim1 "The question is are mods always right" no - that's a different question and of course mods are not always right. My answer here is a response to the OP's assertion that "...there were no abuses thrown by me..." - imo the suspension was warranted as I say. — Jack Douglas 1 min ago
^^^ why the assumption that every question must either be answered with "I am with the mods" or "I am against the mods"?
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5 hours later…
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
2:26 PM
@JackDouglas sectarianism and partisanship run deep here. you're either for something or you're agin it, there's no in between. ever.
 
Caleb
Caleb
@goldPseudo I've been thinking about asking a somewhat philosophical question about why those things are such common issues in Islamic contexts in general, but I haven't figured out how to pose it in a constructive way.
 
Jack Douglas
Jack Douglas
2:45 PM
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Q: How to be straight/not gay

NazeemAssalamualaikum, I am 14 years old and gay. I am not proud of it at all, sometimes i think about ending my own life, but Allah forbids it. So my question is 'why did Allah make me this way', 'how do i deal with it?', and 'how do i be straight.' I dont think being gay is a choice. And hearing pe...

islamic-rules
^^^ This is a moving question and deeply personal, but I'm thinking it's just got do be edited into something more abstract and about Islam rather than the OP's personal circumstance. Thoughts?
 
 
3 hours later…
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
5:38 PM
@JackDouglas not sure what to do about the question, but those answers are concerning.
the top-voted answer is...generic. if you were to take it out of its context, there's pretty much nothing to suggest it comes from an Islam Q&A.
and the bottom two are worse; one is pure opinion, and the last one is practically just a collection of links. at least they're being voted accordingly.
on-holding it as opinion-based for now. there's a core of good question in there, but i just don't have any time to tease it out and polish it.
As worded, this isn't particularly answerable according to the Stack Exchange model. Aside from the fact that you seem to be asking multiple questions in one post (which is generally discouraged), you seem to be asking for highly personal and subjective advice which is probably much better asked of a local religious authority, whereas Stack Exchange is geared more towards questions that are objectively answerable. I would recommend you go through the following meta post for guidelines on how to make such social questions work on our site: meta.islam.stackexchange.com/q/623/22 — goldPseudo ♦ 3 mins ago
 
 
1 hour later…
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
6:50 PM
people need to do more reviews. we're up to 18 items.
and that's after i cleared a bunch already earlier.
more accurately, more people need to do reviews. i know we have regulars what do it, but a lot of these still need multiple eyes on them before they clear.
 
 
2 hours later…
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
8:57 PM
Mujahid - that's why I thought the question might be very uncomfortable. Certainly I think it's safe to say that most of the Western world condemns killing people for changing religions, or cutting off hands for stealing an egg. I am not concerned here with moral judgments but just want to get better statistical information as to how many Muslims support these policies. The reason I ask is that domestically, it is portrayed that Muslims are not for these kinds of things. But in other settings, they are. It's very confusing to me and I suspect to many people, what the statistics are worldwide. — Gregory Magarshak 3 mins ago
 
Gregory Magarshak
Gregory Magarshak
Hi
 
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
As far as supporting some things but not others, there are also commandments in Leviticus that are not followed by Christians. For example: "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death." and "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." - and yet statistically MOST Christians do not follow or support these penalties. So I think it's a valid question for Muslims. — Gregory Magarshak 58 secs ago
@GregoryMagarshak hello
 
Gregory Magarshak
Gregory Magarshak
I never posted before on islam.stackexchange.com, but I posted in other forums for Judaism and Christianity. I apologize if my question is uncomfortable, I don't know how to ask for the information without bringing up the subject though.
 
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
as for the first comment, I think it should be clear that, hands don't get cut off because of stealing an egg, this is merely another of the non-Muslim/westerners misconceptions/claims of something they actually have no knowledge about nor it's rulings and guidelines.
 
Gregory Magarshak
Gregory Magarshak
I hope the question won't be voted down to the point of being closed, but rather answered through some statistics. The reason that it's become relevant to me is that people are saying what ISIS is doing doesn't represent Islam. But in fact the stuff they post - cutting off a thief's hand, beheading infidels, etc. is actually part of Sharia law.
 
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
9:01 PM
@GregoryMagarshak I personally don't like the question, but that doesn't mean it is bad
 
Gregory Magarshak
Gregory Magarshak
So one may say they are not a legitimate Islamic state, but the existing Islamic states, including Saudi Arabia, engage in these things routinely do they not? I don't know if they do it on a wide scale. I have very little information as to how widespread it is, or how many people support those policies. So that's what I want to resolve.
Maybe I should post a different question, which is "How are the actions taken by ISIS against thieves, Christian communities etc. not required by Sharia law in a legitimate Islamic state." ... is it that Islamic courts rarely arrive at such convictions? How rarely? Where would I find more info on this stuff
And yes I realize that ISIS is composed currently of lots of young men who don't know much about Islam, which is why my question is about Sharia law itself and how it is implemented in Saudi Arabia and other states.
 
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
@GregoryMagarshak ISIS does not represent islam, this is just another claim without knowledge. One thing you should know is that among the muslims there are those who are in complete ignorance and who claim to implement the shariah (like ISIS) and then there are those who truly implement the shariah and it's rulings (note shariah does not mean punishment or policies) ,
and then you have those in the west who are just affected by the news and spit out these baseless assumptions which turn into a fact for them, and then there are those people who purposefully and with knowledge give out false information to distort the image of Islam
 
Gregory Magarshak
Gregory Magarshak
I don't claim that ISIS represents Islam. I am asking about the policies of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and other states which not only contain a stable, Sunni Muslim population but also have legitimate courts, governments, etc.
Specifically I wanted to ask about Arabia and the Saudi regime.
I am asking about things which are parallel to what ISIS is doing, but in Saudi Arabia, and asking what the actual statistics are. How many homosexuals are killed? What happens to Christians who wear crosses openly or practice Christianity publicly? How many thieves have their hands cut off every year? Etc.
As for what you said, "I think it should be clear that, hands don't cut off because of stealing an egg" but the words of the Prophet are “May Allaah curse the thief who steals an egg and has his hand cut off, or steals a rope and has his hand cut off.” [Al-Bukhaari]

What indicates that this ruling is definitive is the fact that a Makhzoomi noblewoman (from the tribe of Makhzoom) stole at the time of the Prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allaah exalt his mention ) and this was the ruling that was carried out.
Here is an Islamic source, not western ignorant one: islamweb.net/emainpage/articles/136791/…
 
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
you asked why there seems to be a disconnect between the Muslims in the Us and out, well because how Islam is viewed in the western world, and how it will never fit with any western definition (except for their definition of extremism) some of the US Muslims try to sugercoat not knowing they are portraying Islam as it is not just because they don't want to be (what is called)
discriminated or go against what the popular culture thinks is bad, and so because of this and many other reasons including they don't be in a bad spotlight with the west and deal with the simple non-major consequences they may face they sugur coat stuff
 
Gregory Magarshak
Gregory Magarshak
And you youself said if we are supposed to support the implementation of half of the shariah laws that God himself revealed and not support the other half which he also revealed, then what kind of Muslim/believer would we be?
OK but look, didn't you yourself just say 1) We have to implement ALL of Sharia law not half, and then you said 2) Thief shouldn't get hand cut off for stealing an egg, but 3) It's revealed in QuRan and Islamic exegesis that in fact the ruling is from the Prophet himself and is definitive.
So that's a contradiction to me. That's why I want to know the numbers! Were there many thieves whose hands were cut off last year, or not? And if not, what was the reason for their conviction? I could ask the same thing about drug laws in the united states, which punish nonviolent offenders with years in jail.
For each particular law that calls for death or mutilation for nonviolent crimes, is it widely enforced? And how many Muslims support enforcing it? That's really my Q.
US has laws against nonviolent crimes too
 
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
9:18 PM
firstly, it is no contradiction
providing one hadith proves nothing
 
Gregory Magarshak
Gregory Magarshak
I can provide several
 
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
and it is because soem ignorant muslims read one hadith and go out and start killing people
 
Gregory Magarshak
Gregory Magarshak
Secondly, I am not asking about interpretations. I am asking about reality - actual incidences, implementations of this law
Watch, if you asked me about US minimum sentencing laws, I can give you the % of americans polled who want to repeal these laws:
see? A Pew Research poll has been done and majority of Americans want to repeal the laws against private drug use for many drugs.
Can you give me statistics for Muslim countries? I am not asking about exegesis of a hadith.
 
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
@GregoryMagarshak now I am not so good with my english, but i able to read that article, and quoting only a part of it is called taking something out of context
here, allow me to quote another part of that article:
 
Gregory Magarshak
Gregory Magarshak
 
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
9:20 PM
> Because cutting off the hand is a serious matter, it should not be done for just any case of theft. A combination of conditions must be fulfilled before the hand of a thief is cut off. These conditions are as follows:
 
Gregory Magarshak
Gregory Magarshak
The article provides their interpretation, 1 - 5 .
Yes 1 - 5
 
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
 
Gregory Magarshak
Gregory Magarshak
OK so if you steal an egg and refuse to give it back
from a cupboard
because e.g. you ate it
then all 5 conditions were satisfied
these aren't hard conditions to satisfy, such crimes occur probably 100 times a day in New York City alone
OK I was wrong, the current value of 1/4 of a Dinar is 1.11 grams of gold which is approximately 10 dollars
 
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
@GregoryMagarshak yes, and that means even if the "interpretation" of that article were to be applied, how many hands would not be cut off?
 
Gregory Magarshak
Gregory Magarshak
So if you steal something worth 20 dollars and refuse to give it back then hand is cut off right?
 
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
9:26 PM
@GregoryMagarshak I don't know in dollars, but i guess it be more like if you steal something worth 100 dollars or more your hand will be cut off
 
Gregory Magarshak
Gregory Magarshak
OK. And how often does it happen
In Saudi Arabia
that's my question
How can I find out?
How many people per year have their hands amputated
by the state
or local courts
 
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
@GregoryMagarshak ok, so you want to know percentage of hands amputated
 
Gregory Magarshak
Gregory Magarshak
yes
or absolute numbers are better
 
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
I don't think this is the site for asking that, and I do not know any other SE site that would accommodate a question like this
but again, what would be the point of asking this question?
 
Gregory Magarshak
Gregory Magarshak
Okay I will tell you what I am most concerned about personally
If I visit Saudi Arabia, or any country with Sharia law, I am worried about these laws.
I want to know the truth about what goes on there.
For example is this common: dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2756134/…
 
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
9:36 PM
@GregoryMagarshak I recommend the Travel.SE site then
 
Gregory Magarshak
Gregory Magarshak
I am concerned about all the people living there who may not want to believe in Islam but are forced to, because they will be killed otherwise. I am worried why Christians, Jews etc. cannot live there and practice their religion.
Actually my current reason for asking the question was that Obama and others have said ISIS doesn't represent what Islam is all about, but all the research I have done seems to indicate that Sharia Law in fact DOES call for the same things ISIS is doing, but just involving legitimate Sharia courts.
 
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
@GregoryMagarshak well the question about why non-Muslims can't live in Saudi Arabia is a valid question for this site and can be answered from Islam
 
Gregory Magarshak
Gregory Magarshak
That's what I am confused about. Are you saying that Islamic states (Sudan, Saudi Arabia, etc.) are NOT beheading, amputating, killing, mutilating etc. in any significant numbers? Or you are saying that they are, and most Muslims support it? Because there is a contradiction between how that is presented to us here in the US. I want to clear it up.
 
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
other then that I doubt you would ever be forced to enter Islam, and a Muslim who was forced to be Muslim they are not truly Muslim and their Islam is invalid
as well as the forcing is invalid against shariah
 
Gregory Magarshak
Gregory Magarshak
It seems to me the truth is: an established regime like Saudi regime lets the system of Sharia courts decide what to do. Across the country maybe hundreds of people a year are killed etc. and many more are simply not brought to justice. I understand also that there is a presumption of innocence (supposedly) in the courts. And at the end of teh day hundreds of people, maybe thousands, a year are killed / mutilated / amputated etc. and Muslims around the world do not know the statistics.
Forced conversion
A forced conversion is the religious conversion or acceptance of a philosophy against the will of the subject, often with the threatened consequence of earthly penalties or harm. These consequences range from job loss and social isolation to incarceration, torture or death. It is a form of religious cleansing. == Religion and power == In general, anthropologists have shown that the relationship between religion and politics is complex, especially when viewed over the expanse of human history. While religion and the state have generally different aims, both are concerned with power and order; both...
it is happening now, in the 21st century, albeit in isolated incidents, but with the support of the courts. so I am not so sure I wouldn't be forced to enter Islam if I visited there.
I probably wouldn't be forced, if I kept quiet and didn't tell people I wasn't a muslim, for instance.
 
Mujahid مجاهد
Mujahid مجاهد
9:50 PM
@GregoryMagarshak for some of your concerns or questions, I suggest you check out the Travel.SE site
 
 
1 hour later…
goldPseudo
goldPseudo
11:12 PM
@GregoryMagarshak There's a fundamental difference between your example and the question you're actually asking.
your example is asking about a particular policy (the "War on Drugs").
not only are you asking about a much vaguer policy (people's opinion on "punishment"), you're asking about the opinions held by a much larger and more diverse group of people.
according to some rough calculations, "Americans" make up roughly 4% of the world population. and geographically, those would mostly be in America.
"Muslims" make up almost a quarter of the world population, and they're all over the place.
even if we were to assume that the question was on-topic here (i'm of two minds about that), it would need to be significantly more focussed to be viable.
the chances of anyone having done any statistically significant surveys of every Muslim in the world's opinion on "punishment" seems unlikely.
especially when you get into the tangle that is "who is or is not considered Muslim?"
Sunnis? Shi'ites? Ahmadis? Druze?
And what is or is not considered Shariah? Sunni Islam alone has four major schools of jurisprudence which do not agree with each other as to how to interpret/apply rulings of Shariah law.
you might be able to get statistics about particular Muslims in particular countries about particular applications of Shariah, but as phrased your question is about as answerable as asking "What percent of Christians worldwide do not support implementing punishments of democratic law"
or to put it another way: probably close to 100% of Muslims worldwide support implementing punishments of Shariah law, but they all have very different ideas what those punishments are. which as an answer is about as accurate as it is useless.
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