Jaami'at StackExchange al-Islamyya

goldPseudo

12:00 AM

@Ahlelbayt Please stop.

Mujahid مجاهد

@Ahlelbayt have you ever heard the saying: "كلمة حق أريد به باطل" and also "إن ذلك تزيين من الشيطان"?

goldPseudo

you've been in here for barely an hour, and i reckon you've already given out more links and quotes than everyone else in here for the last month.

mostly unsolicited.

Ahlelbayt

12:15 AM

@goldPseudo Ok leave it, but may I know why this room is named "Islamic university"?

were there some classes going on here?

and that too "Islamic University of stack exchange" sounds very bold!

goldPseudo

4

Q: What should we name our chat room?

Our primary chat room is named "Islam" (described as "General discussion for islam.stackexchange.com"). While accurate, I feel that this is decidedly boring. So, given that being boring is bad and being interesting is good, what should we name it instead?

Ahlelbayt

I hope this stackexchange company wont object to you people invading a programming site to create an Islamic university!! lol

goldPseudo

stack exchange is not a programming site.

it's a Q&A site.

Ahlelbayt

@goldPseudo ya but it is mainly meant for programmers

and programmers have the highest IQ and interest in all topics!

which makes them master of many trades.

goldPseudo

no, it is not.

that is not how programmers work.

that is also not how stackexchange works.

infatuated

4:31 AM

On top of that when you have problem identifying your real enemies, instead of focusing on the real threat to the Ummah which is Zionism and US imperialism you end up fighting muslims resisting Western/Zionist imperialism; and very much prone to turn into their pawns as has ISIS for a large degree.

infatuated

4:43 AM

why were my messages deleted?

what was so wrong with my critique?

infatuated

5:05 AM

When an agnostic Jewess does relatively much better in making some true sense of the Quran than do many self-described mojahids and moftis. A more than enough evidence for me that understanding Islam is about exercise of reason and contemplation than just reading and hurrying to conclusion. And how else Allah could make us understand this when there are so many verses talking about reason and reasoning.

ted.com/talks/lesley_hazelton_on_reading_the_koran

Ahlelbayt

6:36 AM

@infatuated Victory belongs to Allah alone, I am strongly opposed and condemn the various conspiracy theories about "Jews, Christians,, Zionists and Muslims/"

How many times I have heard about this "zionist plots"

Those who propogate these silly ideas actually dont have faith in Allah, and believe that a Jew\zionist could subvert the plans of Allah , Thy plan but it is not necessary that they will be successful in their plans.

We end up giving so much importance to these "zionist plans" as if Jews\zionists are the most powerful people on earth.

@infatuated The fact is Saudi, Iran is a pawn and ISIS is the only authority which is demonstrably against western intervention in the entire ME.

Ahlelbayt

6:57 AM

@infatuated lesley too cant make judgements and form such conclusions based on this shallow reading of quranic verses . Did she even read the contextual hadith behind the verses , the entire picture which involved reading the biography of prophet with each event and reason for revelation of particular verse?

infatuated

8:36 AM

@Ahlelbayt, yes, victory belongs to Allah, but I think a lot of us muslims have developed an ugly habit of speaking on His behalf! As if Allah is our own and that we are his favorite and that we are endorsed by Him or are His spokesmen; even when hardly two of us can agree on the right interpretation, narrative and understanding of Islam! Doesn’t that seem like a serious intellectual defect?!

And your opposition to those conspiracy theories (I’m not sure which particular ones are your referring to) do not change the fact that our world is ruled by elite groups who are strongly motivated by malicious motivations such as greed and supremacy and these motivations are necessary and sufficient conditions for them to plot conspiracies for subjugating nations:

how many other coups, wars, occupations and speculation-based financial crises, and aggressive worldwide espionage on world populations by organizations such as the NSA do you need to confirm that this world is ruled by very evil people?! The whole world is enslaved to usurious international banks who are pooling the strings of western governments and are behind all these wars and economic downfalls.

For me as a Political Science graduate and researcher and many other awakened citizens of the world who have spent the last 4 years carefully researching and studying these topics they are the existence and perpetuation of a lot of these conspiracies are quite evident.

But as for Zionist conspiracy for an average human being it is sufficient to just look at the facts of the Israeli occupation of Palestine to confirm an ongoing conspiracy before our eyes, even if one is still ignorant of other less known instances of Judozionist conspiracies over the last three centuries that are documented by various historians who of course are not ever mentioned in mainstream media and academia that is controlled by corporate interests.

But if you are interested in learning, here are some notable sources:

How a group of small but powerful bankers plotted the Communist takeover of Russian in 1917, how they plotted the establishment of the Federal Reserve, and how they engineered both WWI and WWII
http://www.amazon.com/None-Dare-Call-It-Conspiracy/dp/0945001290

Documented Zionist role in 9/11
http://www.bollyn.com/solving-9-11-the-book

Another book on history of international banking and facts of financial subjugations of US and the western world.
http://www.webofdebt.com/

A eye-opening scientific study on elite-censored facts of Earth and life history on Earth which undermine our most widely accepted scientific assumptions about Earth History and Historical Anthropology
http://www.thecrowhouse.com/Documents/Earths%20Forbidden%20Secrets%20Part%20One%20Edited%20Edition.pdf
and this list can still go on!

And you seem to be totally ignorant on other things you talk about with such confidence such as Iran being a US pawn, when Iran has historically encountered the most vicious of US-Zionist subversive plots, from coup attempts, to the imposed war, to sanctions, cultural warfare, industrial sabotage of its nuclear activities and assassination of its nuclear scientists and so on!

Don’t you think you’re badly missing some very crucial facts on the subject when you pretending to know what you’re talking about?

Alright, this went too long and we are probably not allowed to take this any longer. But you got an opportunity to learn some crucial things and correct some of your assumptions.

Mujahid مجاهد

@infatuated سبحان الذي خلق يد لا تتعب من الكتابة :) I am truly I amazed at how much you wrote, I have never, in all the two years I have been a member of this site, seen someone write text that fills the whole chatroom, the closest to the length you have written right now I have seen all two years I was a member was only copy/paste!

infatuated

@Mujahidمجاهد, hehe, when talking of politics you should know i'm a pressed coil!

Mujahid مجاهد

@infatuated you and me are similar in that aspect, except I never imagined you were so good in english

infatuated

:) I'm a translator! Have already translated two books on political history and finance.

however not as good as I should in English professional writing.

Mujahid مجاهد

8:52 AM

@infatuated ah I see

infatuated

If it was not for a chronic illness I should have been graduating in Phd Political Sciences now.

Mujahid مجاهد

I guess I am also amazed at the speed you wrote those messages

infatuated

I'm a very fast typer. My friends used to laugh when I type. But it is just a matter of long enough practice.

Mujahid مجاهد

@infatuated May Allah heal your illness

infatuated

May He heal all the ill.

Mujahid مجاهد

8:57 AM

آمين

infatuated

ah, you reminded me of one of my favorite muslim artists.

►

Mujahid مجاهد

@infatuated nice :)

I'll-Be-Back

10:36 AM

Didn't Salahuddeen capture many countries and become a leader of many countries..

Isn't that what IS trying to do?

Ahlelbayt

12:38 PM

@I'll-Be-Back Yes you are right, infact he was part of the fatimid caliphate(A shia Ismaili caliphate) as a vizir and then he overthrew them. AFAIK

Mujahid مجاهد

@Ahlelbayt where are you getting your information?

Ahlelbayt

@Mujahidمجاهد I read about them from various historical sources which have consensus

long back

@infatuated I suggest you ask each of those "conspiracy" on skeptics.SE

e.g you 9\11 theories,

Mujahid مجاهد

@Ahlelbayt can you provide some of these sources so I can see, because either I have forgotten something or I have never heard of this, and I would either like to refresh my knowledge or add to it please

I'll-Be-Back

@Ahlelbayt You mean Salahuddeen was a Shia??

Ahlelbayt

@I'll-Be-Back No he was appointed as vizier in a shia caliphate

it was very common then

to have sunni vizier

I'll-Be-Back

12:46 PM

I dont know what is vizier mean

I will loook up

Ahlelbayt

A vizier is a high-ranking political advisor or minister. The Abbasid Caliphs gave the title wazir to a minister formerly called katib (secretary) who was at first ...

Mujahid مجاهد

@Ahlelbayt you mean وزير ?

Ahlelbayt

@Mujahidمجاهد ya

Mujahid مجاهد

I see

@Ahlelbayt please provide the sources you got this from

Ahlelbayt

wikipedia also has it:

Saladin

Ṣalāḥ ad-Dīn Yūsuf ibn Ayyūb (Arabic: صلاح الدين يوسف بن أيوب‎; Kurdish: سه‌لاحه‌دین ئه‌یوبی , Selahedînê Eyûbî) (1137/1138 – March 4, 1193), better known in the Western world as Saladin, was the first Sultan of Egypt and Syria and the founder of the Ayyubid dynasty. A Muslim of Kurdish origin, Saladin led the Muslim opposition to the European Crusaders in the Levant. At the height of his power, his sultanate included Egypt, Syria, Mesopotamia, Hejaz, Yemen, and other parts of North Africa. Originally sent to Fatimid Egypt by his Zengid lord Nur ad-Din in 1163, Saladin climbed the ranks of the...

Mujahid مجاهد

12:59 PM

@Ahlelbayt thanks :)

Ahlelbayt

And not to mention that the greatest enemies of Salahuddin Ayyubi Raheemahullaah were so called "Muslim" leaders who secretly worked with crusaders to fortify their leadership. This is EXACTLY what Saudi, Iraq, Iran ,Egypt and "Muslim" labeled leaders are doing today!

I guess I had explained a bit about in my answer which was deleted

as a mod can you can see the answer?islam.stackexchange.com/questions/17330/…

@Mujahidمجاهد i donno why the answer is deleted but not the question?

I'll-Be-Back

It is interesting question, shouldnt put on hold

How do you compare with Salahuddeen and IS?

Hmmm

islam.stackexchange.com/search?q=ISI

All the questions related to IS get closed down.

Mujahid مجاهد

@I'll-Be-Back because the question shouldn't be asked in that way, the title of the question is fine, it is the body of the question that I find the problem in and that is why it is closed as off-topic

I'll-Be-Back

It would be difficult.

Ahlelbayt

@I'll-Be-Back if you want I have saved the deleted answer here: jpst.it/sL1g

Mujahid مجاهد

1:09 PM

@I'll-Be-Back I think that is a good question, though might be considered as opinion based depending on how it is asked, but I don't see any problem with comparing modern matters with historical matters

I'll-Be-Back

Yep

5

Q: ISIS relation to Islam?

I just wanted to know what islam has to say with this militant group. Their raping girls, killing children, etc. I believe this ISIS is trying to establish an islamic state. Why now? Does islam justify their actions or support this. In order for them to try and establish this islamic state they...

islamic-rules politics islamic-government isis

That was very good question and it would educated a lot of people.

Ahlelbayt

@I'll-Be-Back it is same question

I'll-Be-Back

Sometime it is good to bend the rule a bit for educational purpose.

Ahlelbayt

ans you see the double standards of the mods , as they are allowing answers there

which have no evidences cited

but deleted my answer

I'll-Be-Back

"ISIS is clearly following a puritanical branch of Islam called "salafi" Islam. "

I know a lot of salafi are against ISIS

Mujahid مجاهد

1:13 PM

@I'll-Be-Back again I am baffled by what is being used to judge what is related to Islam and what isn't (the comment)

Ahlelbayt

@I'll-Be-Back Yes , salafis themselves have dozens of group

the madkhali, the jihadi,....

Dr Zaikir naik himself said 20+ groups of salafis

I'll-Be-Back

I attend to salafis mosque for salaah ;)

Ahlelbayt

@I'll-Be-Back me too

on politics salafis have a versatile range of opinion , from completely apolitical strains to regime overthrowers..

The madkhali type is pro king and highly apolitical and makes it haram to rebel against saudi king etc

Mujahid مجاهد

the word salafi is most often used to much and given to many groups, whether it is self claimed by those groups, or given by the enemies

Ahlelbayt

@Mujahidمجاهد Dr Baghdadi calls himself "salafi jihadiyah"

I'll-Be-Back

1:17 PM

Abdur-Raheem Green is salafi too

Ahlelbayt

Zakir naik, estes, yasir qadhi, bilal philips alll are salafi

I'll-Be-Back

Sheikh Yusuf Estes too

Mujahid مجاهد

@Ahlelbayt and tomorrow Dr Bashar will call himself "salafi ulawi"

I'll-Be-Back

a lot of popular names are salafi

Ahlelbayt

@I'll-Be-Back but the one grounded by Muhammad ibn abdul wahhab is the purest

I'll-Be-Back

1:19 PM

Is Bilal Assad salafi? I like his lectures.

Ahlelbayt

also called "wahhabi"

all salafis are wahhabis, infact I see the two mods here are salafi too

from their answers

esp goldpseudo and Mujahid

even the other shia mod seems to have changed to "salafi" or atleast secular!

Mujahid مجاهد

@Ahlelbayt "Wahabi" is nothing but a name coined by the British (I think it is the British if I am not mistaken) based on Abdul Wahab's name, like all the other western names "fundamentalist", "extremist", "terrorist" etc

Ahlelbayt

They seem to be from the apolitical group the madkhali type

@Mujahidمجاهد I donno why but I like this name!

wahhabi sounds so good and evokes disdain among sufis\shias

although one should not use such labels.

Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab

Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab (Arabic: محمد بن عبد الوهاب‎; 1703 – 22 June 1792) was an Najdi Islamic scholar. Opponents of this movement coined the term "wahabi" or "wahabism", though neither Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab nor any of the movement's participants referred to themselves as such. His pact with Muhammad bin Saud helped to establish the first Saudi state and began a dynastic alliance and power-sharing arrangement between their families which continues to the present day in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The descendants of Ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab, the Al ash-Sheikh, have historically led the ulama...

Mujahid مجاهد

@Ahlelbayt please don't classify me under anything, if by Salafi you mean those who follow the SalafuSsalih then sure i am salafi

Ahlelbayt

Above links to his excellent work: al-aqeedah.com/images/books/asludeen.pdf

Mujahid مجاهد

1:27 PM

@Ahlelbayt but keep me free from those 20+ groups

Ahlelbayt

@Mujahidمجاهد Yes all salafi groups claim that

in the above book he has done wala bara of Mushrikeen

Mujahid مجاهد

@Ahlelbayt I know, so keep me free from that, and please don't give me a headache

Ahlelbayt

like those people in his time who had made huge mausoleums and prayed to a assortment of saints

I'll-Be-Back

There is no such thing wahhabis

Also this is insult to Allah name.

Ahlelbayt

there is even a site wahhabis.com

by salafi madkhali group

I'll-Be-Back

1:31 PM

I don't class myself salafi, I am just a Muslim... but I follow salafi method.

Ahlelbayt

@I'll-Be-Back ofcourse it is wrong to label such , but now it has become like a verb due to its popularity

the salafi school is the fastest growing in Islam

I'll-Be-Back

Yep

Mujahid مجاهد

@Ahlelbayt but it should be non of our concern , because tomorrow another group is going to show up and the name people will give them will be very popular, do you know what the name is?

Ahlelbayt

@Mujahidمجاهد yes this is why we should avoid using names

labels

and concentrate on principles

like not doing taqleed of scholars etc

I wonder if there is a salafi version of Shia?

@infatuated may help in this?

salafis actually empower ordinary men to learn more about Islam and not trust what the scholars say by making taqlid as haram

Mujahid مجاهد

@Ahlelbayt I don't think so, if there was I am sure the shia would call them salafi, it is not like Sufism

@Ahlelbayt Alhamdulillah

Ahlelbayt

1:37 PM

So you see a rise of self made salafi scholars like estes,green etc who made great strides

this platform also seems to work in favour of apolitical salafi ideology

for madhab following people this site would be haram as ordinary people are not allowed to quote hadith

Also one another attribute of salafis is their desire to decimate shrines and objects of Idolatory like how both JN and ISIS have demolished dozens of shrine which were dedicated to saints.

and this shrine demolishing was inspired by non other then sk Muhammad ibn abdul wahhab who was the Mujadid and Mujtahid it seems for the salafis

I'll-Be-Back

@Ahlelbayt You believe that ISIS doing the right way?

I have seen a video that ISIS have demolished dozens of shrine using bomb

Mujahid مجاهد

@Ahlelbayt it is as if you are saying Abdul Wahab made a bid'ah, and demolishing shrines is a goal every Muslim should strive for

Ahlelbayt

@I'll-Be-Back even the rival Mujahideen groups like JN also demolished and went to the extent of even exhuming the grave of Hujr ibn Adi a companion

@I'll-Be-Back Ya thats the best thing to do. and as per the Sunnah. Sk Wahhab also did that

Mujahid مجاهد

@Ahlelbayt but with bombs? isn't that kind of harsh and disrespectful? the Sunnah is to level the grave/shrine until it is above the ground the size of the palm of the hand, not bomb it until the place of the grave isn't even known, is there no other means?

Ahlelbayt

@Mujahidمجاهد "Every Muslim should strive"?

I'll-Be-Back

1:52 PM

I agree with you @Mujahidمجاهد

Ahlelbayt

@Mujahidمجاهد Because maybe the stuctures are so strong that they can be only done away with a bomb

I'll-Be-Back

That is no excuse

Ahlelbayt

@I'll-Be-Back It is a common demolition way to use bombs

yet i noticed they did use bulldozers

I'll-Be-Back

Saladin didn't slaughter all non sunnis, he didn't force them to leave, he didn't make takfir on muslims who disagreed with him, and he didn't hide from kuffars. He lead his troops from the front not from a cave.

Ahlelbayt

for sunni shrines

and for shia bombed it

I'll-Be-Back

1:54 PM

ISIS is very different..

Ahlelbayt

@I'll-Be-Back isis also AFAIK does not make takfir of all

Mujahid مجاهد

@Ahlelbayt what I mean is, some things are made out to be goals while they are merely means to a goal which also is a means to The Ultimate Goal, but many people forget and so they make it out that this is a goal that must be achieved

Ahlelbayt

only those who fight them

which is reasonable

like how Ali and Muwiaya fought and they did not refrain from killing the other party while the war was on, many prominent sahabas themselves were killed

Mujahid مجاهد

@Ahlelbayt the difference with other groups should not affect this, the shrine that the shia make hajj to are the graves, and or the supposed graves on of those who we as Muslims have more right to then the shia, so the reason that the shrines are for the shia is not a good one, because those in the graves also could be ours, so the harshness of a bomb really isn't needed

@Ahlelbayt the war between Ali and Mu'awiyah cannot be made to apply to us, because look at their status and look at ours, and the wars between those two (Allah is pleased with both) there were many Sahabah involved, even the big scholars among, and they all did Ijtihad, and gone with what they believed was right, and as teh Prophet himself said, those that do Ijtihad and turns out right has two reward, and those that turn out wrong has one reward

that was the sahabah, and look at us, who of us or any of these groups are on any actual level to do Ijtihad?

and some of these groups are so deviant that anything they come with is no good

and others of these groups come with truth and correctness but use it for invalid reasons

Ahlelbayt

2:09 PM

.... If one (party)
transgresses beyond the bounds against another, then fight against
the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of
Allah ..

The Qur-an: 49-9. The beginning of this verse requires us to make
reconciliation between the two quarelling parties and then, if that fails to solve the
problem .. the next and final step would be the use o.f force against the
party. Prior to the break out of the war between All and Mu aWlya, All had already
sent several envoys to Muwiya. Typically, many peacemakers were involved in
order to solve the problem peacefully. But none of these efforts succeeded.

Mujahid مجاهد

@Ahlelbayt This does not need any argument, Ali was in the right, Mu'awiyah was in the wrong, the first got two rewards, the second got one, Allah is pleased of both, finish.

Ahlelbayt

2:47 PM

@Mujahidمجاهد they were not jurisprudence rulings

Mujahid مجاهد

@Ahlelbayt i do not understand, what do you mean?

infatuated

3:26 PM

to get an idea about the depth of breath of what was lost from Prophet's Sunnah as represented by Ahlulbayt one only needs to take a look at Shiite hadith sources to find a remarkably unique and transcendental wisdom that is totally unheard in the Sunni world. Usul al-Kafi for example includes a lot of hadiths on gnostic interpretation of Islam, the book on Intelligence and Ignorance is theme that is never talked about in Sunni sources.

kaiser

Break it for a second...

To whoever started mass flagging in here: Don't do that.

2

infatuated

I didn't.

kaiser

You are effectively notifying any moderator in chat around the whole network. That's 100+ people.

enderland

It's anyone with 10k rep, actually @kaiser

kaiser

@infatuated of course you didn't flag your own messages facepalm

@enderland oh yeah. Constantly keep forgetting that one :P

infatuated

3:28 PM

In fact the last time i flagged any post in chat was so old that I can't even remember hehe.

kaiser

In short: Do not flag because you are offended. If so, then notify the chat owner. Or moderators of your site.

4

Honestly: How would 99% of moderators (like me) understand your religious discussion? I would have to read books to understand that.

It's like if people would start flagging messages in Physics chat when someone says "Math is the source of all sience!". I hope you get that.

You are here for discussions. And discussing means that there will be opinions different than your own. Get around that. Or lock yourself into a room where you don't have to talk or even see people. Chat then is the wrong place for you.

2

Hope that cleared things up about flags. Thanks for your patience and for keeping that in mind when you consider to hit "flag that" in the future.

Bye.

One thing I forgot to mention: When you click on a users avatar, then you get a menu. There you can do the following:

> Ignore this user [everywhere]

infatuated

If my messages were flagged honestly i was simply representing a Shiite narrative of Islam which is well an important sect within Islam. And it is likely that some other sects might not like it, but that's one official Islamic sect and discussing sectarian differences are legitimate subjects in any religion.

and it is sad that instead of objective and open-minded study of other sects, some muslims simply choose to ignore, suppress or even takfir other sects. It's not even an Islamic practice as we as believers are expected to "listen to the opinions and follow the best of them". استماع القول و اتباع احسنه

Mujahid مجاهد

3:53 PM

@infatuated I really think all that text is not needed, summarize it a bit, maybe 5 big messages in a row

just a suggestion

goldPseudo

7

There's no reason politics needs to be off-topic in chat. The problem is, some users were unwilling and/or unable to discuss that particular topic reasonably and professionally, and despite multiple warnings I still needed to flag and suspend multiple users for behaving non-constructively while ...

Political discussion is allowed in this chatroom on the condition that everyone involved is willing to play nicely.

3

infatuated

hmm, I think it is hard for me to summarize that without removing some of the crucial points.

goldPseudo

If I see something like this happen again, I'mma put a kibosh on the whole topic.

infatuated

Right!

hehe, I was alone in chat room and suddenly encountered a flock of moderators from other SE sites jumping in! I told myself "what's up? Am I going to be arrested!" lol

goldPseudo

@infatuated That goes for you too.

If you can't state your points respectfully and professionally, don't state them.

infatuated

4:05 PM

That goes for all, I understand!

goldPseudo

7 messages deleted

Mujahid مجاهد

5:12 PM

@Arrowfar @Hakim Salam / hello and Welcome to islam.SE's main chatroom

user116848

@Mujahidمجاهد Hi, How are you?

user116848

And Salams :-)

Mujahid مجاهد

@Arrowfar fine thank you, and you?

Hakim

@Mujahidمجاهد Salam, how is it going? ;-)

user116848

@Mujahidمجاهد Alhamdullilah

Mujahid مجاهد

5:13 PM

@Hakim very well thank you, and you?

:)

@Arrowfar Alhamdulillah :)

Hakim

As well hamdulillah

Mujahid مجاهد

@Hakim Alhamdulillah

user116848

@Mujahidمجاهد So why there is so much flagging going on in Islamic chat?

Mujahid مجاهد

:)

user116848

I mean by reading the earlier posts I got to think that

Mujahid مجاهد

5:17 PM

@Arrowfar to tell the truth, I missed the whole thing, I came in later when I saw the message from the other mod. But from what I understand, there was a wall of text and someone flagged each and every message (about 8) as spam/offensive

user116848

I see :-)

user116848

@Mujahidمجاهد So if you don't mind me asking this is the Sunni site, right? Just asking

Mujahid مجاهد

@Arrowfar no, it is not. And it is not a shia site either, the site welcomes all the groups

user116848

I see.

goldPseudo

6:26 PM

i need to make a list of all the meta posts i'm not writing.

got another discussion rattling around in my head that needs metaing.

basically an expansion on the principles discussed in the Stand and Deliver meta post.

Transcript for

Jaami'at StackExchange al-Islamyya