Jaami'at StackExchange al-Islamyya - 2014-05-03

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12:43 AM

I posted a new question

0

Q: What is meant by Allah's (c.c) hand(s)?

In this website, http://www.kalamullah.com/one.html, explaining the ayat of Qur'an other than it's appereant meaning is criticised, and this example is given; قَالَ يَا إِبْلِيسُ مَا مَنَعَكَ أَن تَسْجُدَ لِمَا خَلَقْتُ بِيَدَيَّ ۖ أَسْتَكْبَرْتَ أَمْ كُنتَ مِنَ الْعَالِينَ Sahih Inter...

1:02 AM

I dislike it very much when I encounter and hadith which is not properly referenced while I read something on the internet.

1:17 AM

there's a lot of those out there.

too many people consider just quoting a hadith as automatic credibility, and don't really care about its authenticity.

I feel like making an source-verification question about them when I encounter, if I do that, such questions would flood the homepage

The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said: "Every ummah has its majoose (fire worshipper) and the majoose of my ummah are those who say: "There is no Qadr (Predestination)' if they become sick! do not visit them and if they die do not witness them (i.e. to attend their funerals)". [Ahmad]

Have you heard of such hadith?

it sounds familiar, but I couldn't say anything about its authenticity.

here's another version of it (narrated through Abu Dawud, not Ahmad): sunnah.com/abudawud/42/97

but it's weak.

stronger one: sunnah.com/abudawud/42/96

1:34 AM

Qadariyyah means people who deny the Qadr I guess?

honestly, not sure. from my (weak) knowledge of Arabic, it seems to be "the people of Qadr".

That would make weak one and strong one contradict each other

well, it appears to be a name of a group of people, the question is why they're named that.

it's translated as "fatalists" here: sunnah.com/urn/416920

I guess it means people whose worldview are deterministic

that's my guess.

1:42 AM

Like people who say "God is already determined what I am going to do, there is no shame on me for what I have done"

would probably be a good question for the site, actually.

@yasar11732 that's Al Jabariyah

Do you know who are Qadariyya?

الْقَدَرِيَّةِ

almuflihoon.com/… <-- according to this, the qadariyyah are people who deny divine predestination altogether; that man makes his own fate.

2:15 AM

Should I downvote a low-quality answer from a new user

0

A: What is meant by Allah's (c.c) hand(s)?

You should know that Muslims believe that Allah has a hand, face and in a way a body. depending on the Qur'an "وجوه يوم اذ ناظره الى ربها ناظره" which means faces then are looking at God. another verse from the Qur'an "ويبقى وجه ربك ذو الجلال والاكرام" and also the verse "ثم استوى على العرش" thos...

13 hours later…

3:13 PM

@AlUmmat I need your help finding an hadith again :)

@yasar11732 ok :)

Can you find the hadith about sayin 33 subhanallah, 33 elhamdullilah, 33 Allahu Akbar after the prayers

I am trying to collect proofs of tasbihat after the prayers

@yasar11732 Look at the ahadeeth here scroll down to see which hadith satisfise you

@AlUmmat Thanks, I am reading that

This one seems good:

sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/16/11

sunnah.com/bukhari/80/26

Those two are different for some reason :/

3:34 PM

@yasar11732 this one is also good sunnah.com/abudawud/8/89

@yasar11732 I know that a number of ways are narrated in how to do the Adhkar after the salat

@AlUmmat Is that sahih?

yes, except for the part
"غُفِرَتْ لَهُ ذُنُوبُهُ وَلَوْ كَانَتْ مِثْلَ زَبَدِ الْبَحْرِ"
"His sins will be forgiven, even if they are like the foam of the sea"
which has been pointed out by Al Albani

2 hours later…

5:50 PM

I am very sceptic towards islamic finance.

1 hour later…

7:20 PM

@yasar11732 fair enough. a lot of islamic finance is just banks trying to finagle non-islamic finance into some sort of islamically acceptable legalese.

@goldPseudo That is precisely why I am sceptic toward it

interest is haram? well...what if we just call it a gift. that we give every month. of an exact percentage of your deposit.

And these things is really hard to research and understand by yourself most of the time.

Especially for layman

it's far more complex than people give it credit for.

For example, today I learned that some kinds of forward trading is haraam. I am still trying to figure out which kinds are halaal.

I am trying to figure out if Islamic banking actually exist

7:28 PM

as a general rule of thumb, if it doesn't involve riba, gharar or maysir, it's probably not haraam.

gharar = uncertainty. maysir = gambling.

i'm still trying to wrap my head around exactly where forward trading falls on the spectrum. in general, it seems to involve a lot of gharar since it involves buying things that don't exist yet; there's no way for either party to reasonably judge the actual value.

there's a number of hadiths wherein the prophet forbade selling things you don't posess.

There is something called Bai Al-Istisna, which is a form of Islamic trade contract which something non-existent but it's quality/number/properties is determined sold for a determined price

But as far as I know, you cannot sell which you don't have yet

page 47: bankislam.com.my/en/documents/shariah/…

istisna is basically work-for-hire: I'll pay you to build me a house.

I think in this context it is more than that

7:44 PM

i've never heard of istisna being used for anything other than actual manufacturing of an end product.

there's another transaction known as bai' salam which is for buying non-manufactured goods in advance.

i.e paying a fixed amount up front for specific goods in the future.

Is that halal?

it is. i'm still trying to wrap my head around exactly why that doesn't fall under "do not sell what you don't possess" though since that's pretty much exactly what it involves. :/

I am making a question for it

sunnah.com/urn/1265980 <-- hadith permitting bai' salam.

What if seller doesn't deliver on time?

7:58 PM

not sure.

i think that would just fall under the general rulings of not fulfilling a contract.

In Bai Salam, you have to pay in advance the whole price right?

i believe so. otherwise it would basically be selling a debt for a debt.

which is haram?

As far as I can get from this page in Bai Salam, price is fixed at the time of agreement and paid in delivery

According to Wikipedia, this is criticised, because banks earn time value of money

which looks similiar to riba

8:20 PM

2

Q: What is the hadith forbidding bay' al-kali bil-kali?

I was reading a (poorly written) essay recently, wherein a hadith was mentioned but not fully quoted. Allegedly, the classical fuqaha used it to forbid bay' al-kali bil-kali (Selling of debts for debts). Beyond that, all I know is that it was reported by Ibn 'Umar, as related by al-Tabrani (sic...

source-identification bay-al-dayn

i'm pretty sure that selling a debt for debt is forbidden by most if not all schools, but i'm having trouble finding authentic hadith on the subject in English.

http://www.sunnah.com/urn/513600 <-- "there enters into the transaction what is disapproved of:
delay for delay. Delay for delay is to sell a debt against one man for a debt against another man."

the fact that money now even has an official "time-value" adds complexity to the topic that just plain wasn't around during the time of the prophet.

My guess is that, according to Islamic Law, money shouldn't have time value

Because I remember reading somewhere that money shouldn't earn money by itself because it is only a tool for exchange

if it cannot earn value by itself, it should not lose money by itself too

That is only my guess thougj

i don't think that's based on the primary sources, rather that's trying to explain why the primary sources say what they do.

to me, arguing about what money should be is mostly moot. the fact is, money is something that has time-value, so we need to figure out how to deal with it Islamically.

it just isn't feasible to have our own gold and silver-based sub-economy while the rest of the country uses fiat currency.

At some point in time, value of money was fixed on gold

I think it didn't work because value of gold wasn't stable during or after WW2

:All references to "dollars" in this article refer to the United States dollar, unless otherwise stated. A gold standard is a monetary system in which the standard economic unit of account is based on a fixed quantity of gold. Three types may be distinguished: specie, exchange, and bullion. In the gold specie standard the monetary unit is associated with the value of circulating gold coins or the monetary unit has the value of a certain circulating gold coin, but other coins may be made of less valuable metal. The gold exchange standard usually does not involve the circulation of g...

unfortunately, that also means a lot of the scholarly literature on the topic is of questionable value: if it involved fatwas based on gold-standard currency, they probably don't apply to floating currencies at all.

under the general rule of "any loan that brings benefit is riba", i could argue that lending money to anyone for anything is haram since there's no compensation for the time-value.

but that's unfeasible in and of itself.

if i loan you a hundred dollars, which you pay back after a year, that hundred dollars is officially worth less than when I gave it to you; you only benefited from that loan, while I did not.

if you pay me $110 to recompense the time-value, now that's interest.

8:38 PM

Maybe, you can loan 100$ worth of gold, and recieve same amount in gold

that would be slightly better in terms of time-value, because gold is less inflationary

yeah, but that just makes transactions more complex. who actually deals with real gold these days? :p

What if you didn't actually gave gold, but fixed amount of loan on gold?

11

Q: Is making an "equivalent value" loan in accord with Islam?

In much of the modern world, currency is defined according to a "floating exchange rate." To the best of my knowledge, such an innovation was unknown during the time of the prophet, where the economy directly revolved around gold and silver. Whereas before, while under the gold standard, "a dol...

practical-islam riba

Hmm, I think it is ok than?

it's a matter of some dispute.

8:54 PM

In this fatwa;

islamqa.info/en/95515

Point number 2 says "In the event that inflation is expected at the time of signing the contract, the contract may be drawn up based on a currency or form of wealth other than that which is expected to fall, such as basing the contract on the following: "

And gold and silver is one of the things mentioned

while number 3 counts of things that a contract cannot be based on

and gold and siver listed again

which is weird

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