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2:09 AM

@JasonSalaz Wondering why you've closed my question "Software programs that don't work in Mountain Lion and Good Alternatives"

Jason Salaz

It's too broad a question.

Given your initial answer, a question asking what live-transcription software is compatible with with Mountain Lion could have been sufficient.

The question as it stood is not only too broad, it's too difficult. Software updates, and the question would have to be heavily maintained and have answers deleted whenever they update with ML compatibility.

the "what similar software does work instead" nature is also too broad.

InfluenceJamie

2:49 AM

@JasonSalaz I don't want to be rude, but I fail to see how my question is any more broad than your own question "What tiny thing in iOS has made you smile...". The question was posed to generate discussion around what programs people use in their day to day lives that aren't going to be immediately available in Mountain Lion

I think it's a question that most people wonder before upgrading to a new OS and people answering it is going to be of help to alot of users

I would hop too that the most common software that isn't available in ML gets voted to the top of the answers

I would also suggest the question is no less relevant than the "what-under-documented-features-have-you-stumbled-upon-in-mountain-lion" thread which has recently been the most popular question on AskDifferent

Jason Salaz

3:25 AM

StackExchange is not a forum. "Discussion" questions are not productive on the site.

InfluenceJamie

It wasn't a discussion question though, there are definitive answers, either something works with Mountain Lion or it doesn't.

Jason Salaz

there are not definitive answers for one reason:

there is no one alternative to software that doesn't work in the current version of an OS. there are MANY alternatives.

in the majority of cases that's true, anyway.

InfluenceJamie

Again, I have to use your own question for my argument "What tiny think made you smile in iOS 5", surely this is more open to discussion, something that makes one person smile might make me frown

Jason Salaz

smile / frown in a matter of voting. disagree? vote down.

iOS 5 is finite.

Any possible software that is (currently***) broken, is not.

InfluenceJamie

Mountain Lion is finite

Jason Salaz

3:29 AM

Nope

We're talking about any number of third party apps that don't work for who knows what reason.

My previous point: Software compatibility can, and likely will, change.

Features in iOS (features, not bugs) are unlikely to.

We've decided to let "tiny things" and similar questions live because they are reference.

They're little changes that can improve, impede, or altogether change your workflow.

InfluenceJamie

The question is helps if, say for example, you happen to be a graphic designer who still uses Adobe CS4, you might want to know that CS4 doesn't work on ML and that you'll have to upgrade to CS6

Jason Salaz

In addition to being 'reference', they are also an unchanging reference.

InfluenceJamie

or you happen to be a writer who uses dragon express, you may want to know that dragon express doesn't work

Jason Salaz

In pretty much all cases.

if you happen to be a writer who uses dragon express, you'll probably find out pretty quickly that dragon express doesn't work.

CS6 isn't alternative software to CS4, it's an upgrade.

it's simply the software/upgrade model Adobe has chosen.

InfluenceJamie

Surely a little less quickly if this question isn't allowed to see the light of day

Jason Salaz

3:32 AM

Doubt it

For some individuals who happen to come across it? Sure

but otherwise, people are going to see it doesn't work, and then do something about it.

InfluenceJamie

People may still want to know that they have to upgrade to CS6, it may sway them against upgrading to ML for a while

Jason Salaz

I repeat the statement that it doesn't work now, but that's not likely to always be the case.

I'm sure Adobe has compatibility information on their site.

InfluenceJamie

Yes, thats good, if you thought of it... There are alot of applications I use in my day to day life that I wouldn't have even thought of before upgrading to ML, if they now don't work... what am I to do... If only somebody had asked a question on the Apple stack overflow site, and I had been able to google "what programs won't work in mountain lion" and find the answer to such a question

A question like "What undocumented features are best" is no less broad than my question and to be honest probably considerably less useful

Jason Salaz

if someone holds off updating to mountain lion because someone just answered "dragon dictation doesn't work", and it's no longer true, what then?

InfluenceJamie

If someone answered "Dragon Dictation doesn't work" and I found that information 3 weeks later, I'm sure I would have the nouse to then google it or check dragon dictations website to see if it now does work.

Jason Salaz

3:39 AM

well, wait a minute.

90%+ of our traffic comes from Google.

So people searching for "Dragon Dictation doesn't work on mountain lion" are more likely to find that answer, and stop there.

This is a bad thing.

you'd be astounded at how many people don't check the vendor's own website. Often this is because their own resources often suck.

InfluenceJamie

I don't think thats true. People are going to say "I wonder if they've released a Mountain Lion version now", not blanketly ignore any other google result and assume that dragon is never to exist again, close their laptops and refuse to upgrade. I don't believe people are that foolish,

and in any case if that's the issue then surely rephrasing the question to "What doesn't work as of Mountain Lion launching" or "What isn't yet compatible as of blah blah blah date" would have been a better solution than down voting and closing the question

Jason Salaz

That still doesn't solve the problem.

Stack Exchange is not meant to be a permanent reference unless the subject matter is permanent.

If a program is updated to be compatible, the answer will have to be updated to match.

p.s. I didn't downvote the question.

InfluenceJamie

No and most subject matter isn't permanent. There are many answers to questions on stack overflow about php code from a few years ago that are no longer relevant in php 5, again, I think we trust people to be a bit smarter than that

Jason Salaz

The state of iOS 5 at this point is pretty permanent.

Stack Overflow's problems often come as a result of one thing: Scale

InfluenceJamie

was it any more permanent in January than Mountain Lion is now? apple.stackexchange.com/questions/27761/…

Jason Salaz

3:51 AM

Mountain Lion app compatibility will change.

InfluenceJamie

iPhone features will change

php will change

Jason Salaz

Not in the same major release!

ditto for PHP

InfluenceJamie

code in ruby will change

Jason Salaz

not in the same major release!

What major feature listed in that question has changed in iOS 5?

it's even still the latest release.

Autosave, Versions, and Resume in Lion (not Mountain) didn't change for the entire course of the release.

Notification Center has not changed one single bit in iOS 5.

InfluenceJamie

And I have no doubt that Mountain Lion will remain the major OSX release for some time

Jason Salaz

3:53 AM

for one year maybe

but we're not talking about mountain lion

InfluenceJamie

Yes we are... the question is "What programs won't work right now if I upgrade to Mountain Lion, and what could I use instead"

Jason Salaz

we're talking about third party app compatibility

yes, What [programs won't work] in Mountain Lion.

InfluenceJamie

Is it the "What can I use instead" part that you're concerned with?

Jason Salaz

yes, it is. But so is the first half.

Would you open up a question asking "what apps are not signed for gatekeeper in mountain lion"?

InfluenceJamie

No, because it doesn't matter, if however Gatekeeper prevented you from ever using unsigned apps and couldn't be bypassed then yes, that question would be pretty relevant

Jason Salaz

3:57 AM

bypassing gatekeeper is a completely different question

InfluenceJamie

Yes. Yes it is.

daviesgeek

Hey @JasonSalaz is there an official post explaining what a onebox is?

Jason Salaz

-2

Q: What makes my question so broad or irrelevant?

My question "Software programs that don't work in Mountain Lion and Good Alternatives" was closed for the reason "It's difficult to tell what is being asked here. This question is ambiguous, vague, incomplete, overly broad, or rhetorical and cannot be reasonably answered in its current form." I ...

discussion

^ That's a onebox

Stack Exchange Network

The Stack Exchange Network is a group of question and answer websites, each covering a specific topic, where questions, answers, and users are subject to a reputation award process. This process allegedly promotes knowledgeable users, best answers, and important questions. A wide range of topics in different fields is covered. All subscriber generated content (questions and answers) is licensed to Stack Exchange under the Creative Commons Attribution Share Alike (CC BY-SA) license. Reputation Process Users can ask and answer questions, up-vote or down-vote an answer. Through this p...

daviesgeek

(sorry to interrupt)

Jason Salaz

As is that.

daviesgeek

4:00 AM

@JasonSalaz I know that, but I want to point someone to an "official" definition of it

Nathan Greenstein

@daviesgeek Like an official list of things that are oneboxed?

Or just a description

daviesgeek

Just a description

Nathan Greenstein

Take a look at meta.stackoverflow.com/tags/onebox/info

Jason Salaz

it's one box of information.

daviesgeek

Thanks Nathan! That's what I needed.

@jason Haha!

InfluenceJamie

4:09 AM

@JasonSalaz I've edited the question and flagged for reopening.

Jason Salaz

@InfluenceJamie And you made the question subjective.

Which is also grounds for closure.

Also, the use of immediately in the title only reinforces my points.

InfluenceJamie

I;ve

I've reworded the question in a way thats merely designed to address your issues. Were we to sit around for an hour and half discussing one of your questions, especially the afforementioned "what makes you smile" I'm sure we could shoot holes in it as well. I personally believe your "what makes you smile" question is useful, however if you apply the same logic to it, something that makes you smile is subjective, hence my argument

Whats constitutes a "good feature" is subjective

Jason Salaz

The word "good" never appears in the questions you reference.

Nathan Greenstein

@InfluenceJamie True, but it's something that lends itself much more to sorting based on votes. It's also won't become out of date so quickly. (Sorry to jump in, but thought I would add my thoughts. Thanks for working on this with us!)

InfluenceJamie

We could argue semantics all day, your question is subjective

Jason Salaz

4:18 AM

No, it's not, because it's a finite list, of defined features, with no apparent change in the details.

And also, because it's not a "good" list.

Yours is none of these things.

InfluenceJamie

Thanks for your input Nathan. All I want to get out of this conversation is a question on ask different that addresses the issue of there being programs that you can't use on Mountain Lion, and a way to inform visitors to the site (myself included) what software they should be aware of before the upgrade. Surely helping me towards a solution would be more productive than "your list is not good"

Jason Salaz

@InfluenceJamie You haven't asked for a solution. You've been arguing to have your current idea allowed.

InfluenceJamie

"and in any case if that's the issue then surely rephrasing the question to "What doesn't work as of Mountain Lion launching" or "What isn't yet compatible as of blah blah blah date" would have been a better solution than down voting and closing the question"

Jason Salaz

and I told you why that solution is less sufficient.

InfluenceJamie

Can we come up with a better one then?

Jason Salaz

4:23 AM

Personally? I can't. I'm not saying that to be mean. I simply cannot think of a way to make your question appropriate. Nor am I saying that one doesn't exist.

I simply don't know what it is.

When Lion came out, a web site set up a crowd-sourced compatibility list. And it was a million times more appropriate than SE.

Looks like it was updated for Mountain Lion: roaringapps.com

roaringapps.com/app:5068

InfluenceJamie

Then surely answering "theres a list on roaringapps.com" would have saved us the past hour and halfs argument

Jason Salaz

If I had thought of it, sure :).

I get into a pretty narrow bout of tunnel vision when I'm challenged. Not to mention your opening salvo was "your question does this too".

Salvo was a very odd choice of words.

InfluenceJamie

It does... I'm not saying it's a bad question, it's a useful, relevant question, it's still subjective

Jason Salaz

:(

My battery is about to die, so I need to close this thing up and get back home. That and this conversation is going to continue on even though we have a compromise.

InfluenceJamie

My point is that surely a "subjective" question can be useful and relevant to the site.

Fair enough

Jason Salaz

4:28 AM

Would you like me to comment on the question referencing roaringapps.com ?

InfluenceJamie

Yes that would be good

Thank you

Jason Salaz

This (and much more) information is very well documented at Roaring Apps. — Jason Salaz 25 secs ago

There's the critical battery level warning... Off I go.

patrix

5:02 AM

@Moshe Well, there already is a 3rd party app to access stickies. And the db format is a simple object dump which can be reverse engineered rather easily -> a dedicated app is rather easy to write (and hopefully use).

jmlumpkin

5:59 PM

How often does the 'review stats' at apple.stackexchange.com/review update? I got it today, and for some reason think it should at least more on edited, etc

slhck

8:55 PM

Evening, people. Is that something for you or is it too vague? Or too much focused on jailbreaking?

2

Q: Can I proxy traffic / domains through my phone?

Would it be possible for me to proxy example.com to http://google.com/example.com/, through my jailbroken iPhone? I would tether my connection to my laptop, so to my laptop it connects to Google's IP address, but my phone then rewrites it to the actual destination. Would this be possible?

internet dns proxy iphone

bmike

9:53 PM

@slhck That would be fine to move here.

It's a little on the vague side, but not so bad that it can't be edited into shape.

Jailbreaking is totally fine as far as FAQ goes as long as it's not really about pirating software. The line does get fine if it's about breaking TOS with a wireless carrier, but as long as things are focused on the tech - the community is usually fine with this sort of question.

@jmlumpkin Hmm - have you reviewed on another site or is this your first account to hit review status?

slhck

@bmike Alright, it's yours now :)

Thanks!

jmlumpkin

10:53 PM

@bmike This is the first. By far more active on here than others. i just think I had actually edited more things, than just review.

Daniel Lawson

57 minutes and counting…

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