Luke and Matthew Chronology

Dick Harfield

1:07 AM

@justhalf please join me and we can discuss whatever you wish to discuss

justhalf

Wah, I didn't expect you reply so quickly. =)

Dick Harfield

Hi. Just a fluke!

justhalf

Let me copy your statements first:
The core issue, as most scholars agree, is that the two stories were written independently by two authors who never met and had no opportunity to compare notes. Result is a whole series of differences, including this one. For Lk, Jesus did go to Naz. after 14 days - that is not in doubt (Lk 2:39) - they did not return to Bethm but they went from Nazareth to Jerusalem each yr for Passover (Bethm is farther south).
For Matt, they were still in Bethm 1 wk or 2yrs later - time is non-issue. They never went to Nazareth until after some yrs in Egypt, when their …

Dick Harfield

Those are my comments, yes

justhalf

After I put more thoughts on this and discussed with some people, I realized that the core differences of our opinions boil down to two points:

1. In Luke 2:39, is Luke describing a short time-span of a few days after Joseph returned from the temple, or is it describing a long time-span shortened into one single sentence?
2. In Matthew 2:22-23, is Matthew implying that this is the first time Joseph has been in Nazareth?

I think based on these two points we come to different opinion. You may take sometime to see the different answers to the two questions and why I came to my conclusion and you to yours.

Dick Harfield

1:15 AM

Do you want me to answer this, or wait for more input from you?

justhalf

I presented those two questions as the two points to be discussed, as I think the rest of our differences depend on this.

But the first step is to ensure that we are on the same page that our differences indeed depend on those two points.

Dick Harfield

I think you want to discuss opinions, but before we do, I would like to digress and discuss the guidelines we (I) are required to follow in writing answers. Fine with you?

justhalf

Ok, that's fine with me.

Dick Harfield

In answers on BH.SE, we are not supposed to provide personal opinions, at least not as the principal answer. In fact, a question can be closed if it asks for an opinion.

justhalf

Oh, I think I need to revise the word "opinion" as "stand" in my previous messages

Dick Harfield

1:19 AM

We can provide factual answers, or cite the researched opinions of experts, because they arrive at these conclusions, or researched opinions, after study.

justhalf

Yes, I have my own sources also

Dick Harfield

Yes, of course

Going back to your previous concurrent msg, opinion and 'stand' are semantic definitions for an opinion.

I am not trying to win an argument, in fact I am happy to lose. What I want to do is explain the parameters of my answer(not my comments)

justhalf

But you agree that there are people considering some statements as true and others not? I am referring to those two differing positions

Yes, I'm also interested in studying the differences between sources studying these two passages

Dick Harfield

I know there are many people who believe both infancy accounts to be literally true and people who think otherwise. This would not help me in writing an answer to the question.

I should perhaps quote Bishop Spong, who is a theologian and thereore presumably free of the 'secular bias' you might accuse scholars of. He mixes with other theologians and says that of the people he knows who consider this, no one believes the two nativity accounts to be literally true.

justhalf

Yes, but you said you are here to provide factual answers, and so if there are differences in the facts provided by two different people, then a discussion on which provided facts are true is appropriate, right?

Dick Harfield

1:28 AM

I provide the facts as I know them. Others may write answers that contain different sets of facts, and our readers can choose.

An interpretation of Matthew and Luke is a matter of fact. Let me elaborate, by answering the two questions you posed above:

Luke 2:22-26 says that they returned very soon after Jesus' birth to their home in Nazareth:

Luke 2:22: And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

...

Luke 2:39 (not 26): And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.

justhalf

I see, ok. So your objective is to provide facts as you know them, others as they know them, and leave the decision to choose to the readers, right?

Dick Harfield

So, Joseph and Mary had a home in Nazareth and, naturally, returned there as soon as they had performed their duty in the temple

plese let me finish

justhalf

ok

Dick Harfield

Matthew 2:22-23, after the sojourn in Egypt, Joseph discovers that Archelaus in the new king of Judea, which includes Bethlehem, but not Nazareth.

Matt 2:22: But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:

Matt2:23: And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

Notice here that they were returning to their home in Bethlehem; became afraid of Archelaus; decided to go to Galilee; went to live in Nazareth because by doing so Jesus could be called the Nazarene.

...

Yes, I provide facts as I know them, both from the Bible, as above, and the facts that scholars and theologians read it the same way as I do.

It is open to others to dispute those facts, if they can. They may be right, or they may be wrong, but everyone has the right on BH.SE to present what they believe to be correct, subject to guidelines.

If I have presented my case well, readers will feel they have learnt something from my answer. If others present their cases well, then some readers will feel they have learnt something from those answers.

Please continue ...

justhalf

Ok. I will present my case later. Thanks for the good write-up!

Dick Harfield

1:43 AM

OK I hope we have understood each other a little better and have developed something of a rapport so that we can contribute in harmony :)

@justhalf before we go, I just noticed a comment you made above. We do not use Answer comment indicate disagreement on an answer. That's whatchat rooms are for.

justhalf

3:55 AM

Yes, I think it's good we are in the chat room now =)
Yes, I'm not aiming to debate, but to learn why there are multiple interpretations here. Will reply again later =)

Transcript for

Luke and Matthew Chronology