Paris, Friday 13th

user136984

2:47 PM

@Chan-HoSuh: If we carry on allowing them to talk there won't be any freedom of speech much longer.

@ParanoidPanda completely agreed. @Chan-HoSuh brings up a good point. The talkers not necessarily doers, but that's a good place to start investigating, and if they "smell funny" - arrest, right away.

user136984

If they are allowed to talk about it, they are allowed to promote, they are even allowed to go around England holding IS flags.

user136984

If you are tolerant of those promoting intolerance, you won't have tolerance much longer.

Serg

Frankly, I think @ParanoidPanda is right . . . ISIS is evil , openly against western civilization . . .Freedom of speech is nice, and I am all arms up for it , but not to the point where it's OK for cannibals to promote eating people, serial killers to promote murder

Chan-Ho Suh

I don't see how those examples really threaten us.

user136984

2:51 PM

@Chan-HoSuh: So you want to be eaten?

Chan-Ho Suh

I don't think a guy down the block from me vocally telling people to eat me will cause it to happen

there are also laws against inciting violence

user136984

Ah, but a guy preaching about extremist Islam might radicalise some people and then they might blow you up or cut your head off.

Chan-Ho Suh

cause and effect there is pretty murky

user136984

And they are not inciting violence by promoting a violent and terrorist group?

Serg

@Chan-HoSuh there are laws, sure , but they have to be somehow enforced right ?

Chan-Ho Suh

2:53 PM

as far as I can tell, the laws are being strictly enforced

pretty sure even in the UK, members of radical groups are carefully watched

user136984

@Serg If they are not you will get more Paris like incidents around the world.

Chan-Ho Suh

in the US, FBI watches a lot of people very carefully actually

user136984

@Chan-HoSuh And yet they manage to pull off large attacks.

Chan-Ho Suh

for example, there are some extreme Christian groups they suspect are stockpiling weapons, so the FBI watches them

I think some of those groups are anti-Islam or something :/

there's a lot of attacks nullified, we just don't hear about them

user136984

Well, only watching doesn't seem to be doing a very good job as we can see from Paris.

Chan-Ho Suh

2:56 PM

I don't know how good the French are with that though

well, I have a suspicion they are not as prepared as in the US, frankly

user136984

I still think that we shouldn't tolerate those who want to destroy tolerance.

Chan-Ho Suh

well you are free to voice your opinion :)

Serg

@Chan-HoSuh well probably not good at all, since the attackers used AK47 and suicide-bombers . . .bombers, with bombs, you know . . . .stuff that shouldn't get into the country legally

user136984

@Chan-HoSuh: But when IS take over, I nor you will be able to though because you allowed them to.

Byte Commander

@Chan-HoSuh In my opinion they watch too carefully :P

Chan-Ho Suh

3:00 PM

@ParanoidPanda now that's just condescending

user136984

@Serg: Yeah, but guns are freely available in the US so it will just be easier for them to get them.

user136984

@Chan-HoSuh: I don't mean to be condescending, I am just arguing.

Chan-Ho Suh

fair enough :)

Serg

@ParanoidPanda guns are fine with me. I'm more concerned about automatic and semiautomatic rifles and explosives - that sort of stuff should not be accessible to regular citizens

Chan-Ho Suh

@ByteCommander yep, there are people that think that for sure...

is it that easy to get explosives in France?

Serg

3:07 PM

@Chan-HoSuh probably not so easy, and yet it was somehow possible for those suicide-bombers . . . The US probably are a bit better on monitoring that stuff, since the Boston bombers had to make one themselves, out of pressure cookers . . .

Let's face it, there's a lot of rhetoric getting in the way. It's all nice and dandy when we can just talk on and on. But when a man or men with actual guns or explosives burst into a place, it's going to be a lot of panic and death . . . no-one will stand with the terrorist and say something like "Em, sir , I reject your philosophy of violence but you have your freedom of speech". That person will get effin shot.

user136984

@Chan-HoSuh: How far do you think that our tolerance and freedom of speech should go though? Should we allow people to promote murder and terrorism? Should we allow them to 'inspire' people into committing these atrocious crimes? Where do we draw the line? Or don't we? Do we just allow them to carry on promoting it and increasing how much it happens? Until finally they are in power and there is no freedom of speech, nor do they tolerate you.

Chan-Ho Suh

@ParanoidPanda people have actually discussed these questions a fair bit in history. And that's why things are the way they are now

user136984

Well, things aren't so good now so seemingly they made the wrong decisions... We are approaching civil war here you know.

Chan-Ho Suh

@Serg you see a lot of rhetoric, but I see a lot of panic. The terrorists are winning once you start dismantling the type of civilization they are against

user136984

Though people won't see it until it's too late.

Chan-Ho Suh

3:14 PM

@ParanoidPanda my turn to be condescending, but you sound rather young when you talk like that.

The world has changed a lot in the last 15 years, and ironically it's been partially driven by these exact fears

user136984

Look, it's natural selection, survival of the fittest, those who allow and accept those who want to kill them will die with their philosophy. And the killers and their philosophy will survive and they will spread it.

Chan-Ho Suh

I'll allow the rhetorical use of evolutionary theory, as long as we all realize how fallacious invoking it is :)

user136984

So you don't think that if we are tolerant of intolerance that it will destroy us?

Chan-Ho Suh

well, you realize that's black and white and the real situation isn't? It's not as if people are 100% tolerant of intolerance

people debate the degree of tolerance we should have

user136984

Well I should hope that they are not tolerant of it, but you seem to be. And so do our governments.

user136984

3:19 PM

Anyway, I have to go now, but be back later! :)

Chan-Ho Suh

I guess you don't realize what you're doing, as that probably works well with your friends, but caricaturing people's positions to slam them doesn't work well in open debate

Serg

@Chan-HoSuh There's been many great civilizations in history, and some of them seized to exist due to the lack of protection. I am not saying to dismantle the moral values we have , but some of the rhetoric surely could be set aside for a while till threat is taken care of.

Chan-Ho Suh

well, we're far from being the Mayans

Serg

that's also true . . . But we have to realize, people are getting hurt, killed, murdered . . . exactly by those groups that still roam free

Chan-Ho Suh

they are being investigated and under surveillance. So I guess the matter under debate is what action they need to be observed doing before they are locked up

is merely saying stuff enough if it's done in a subdued way that skirts laws on inciting violence and so forth?

I think we also need to remember that these terrorists generally seem to be transplants that purposefully infiltrate a country for these acts. It's not as if they took a poll on the neighborhood and were like, "Hey a lot of people supporting us here"

Byte Commander

3:27 PM

Problem we have in Germany is that we have due to our history (~70-80 years ago) a problem about being intolerant against any minority groups. Whenever somebody raises his voice, he's called a Nazi. Sometimes correctly, but often this just prevents useful discussions.

Chan-Ho Suh

yeah, I read about some of the German laws ... like they have problems making movies about WW2 in Germany because it's illegal to impersonate Hitler, right?

Byte Commander

@Chan-HoSuh Haven't heard that yet. There are many films and parodies about him, not to mention the load of documentaries...

Chan-Ho Suh

well, I remember reading about one film crew, they had to move the part where someone dressed up like him to another place like England, but the rest of the movie was made in Germany

Serg

@Chan-HoSuh Yes, exactly. Terrorists infiltrate a country exactly with the purpose of harming that country. I think it's reasonable to at least watch those people and jail them if there's a probable suspicion. But for the most part they are out there, in the middle east. There's basically people who are dedicated to training people to killing people and harming peaceful citizens . . . I mean . . .is this not a probable enough cause to just send troops and kill em all ?

Chan-Ho Suh

oh man, I didn't realize you guys had taken the discussion that far ... talking about invasions

well, if you're an extremely cynical person, you'd probably say that the US would already have done that if they thought they could get away with it

the last one didn't go so well though

Serg

3:41 PM

eh . . . I'm just very unhappy that there's people dedicated to killing us, and yet we aren't allowed to do anything about that. Because those folks don't discuss, they kill

Chan-Ho Suh

I guess what I said was an understatement. I mean, there's reason to believe the Iraq invasion escalated the level of terrorist activity in the world

terdon

3:59 PM

@Serg You're kidding right? You do realize that that's precisely how this whole mess started? By "us" sending troops over to kill "them"? In any case, where, exactly, do you send these troops and who, exactly, should they kill? Anyone brown?

Seth

ugh, yes.

Serg

@terdon @Seth I got no hate for muslims or arabs . . .In fact theres one Sudanese girl in my engineering department, I've been taking java with her. Man, she's hot ! But that's besides the point. I've hate for terrorists, not the normal people. Kill those ISIS freaks, destroy their bases.

terdon

4:16 PM

@Serg You have to find them first. More to the point, this is a classic Hydra situation. Kill one and their family now takes up arms to avenge them. Yes, violence may need to be used as well but it is not a solution as the past decades have amply demonstrated. You need to first understand the cultural and historical roots of the problem. While the crazies like ISIS are simply insane, the vast majority of the Muslim world has very real and very justifiable grievances with the Western world.

Unless you deal with those, there will always be a certain level of support and a constant supply of new fanatics.

The last thing we need in wake of this tragedy is to go off and create a few thousand more fanatics with a death wish.

Seth

buuuut you're quite a ways off topic. New room if you want to continue discussing it please :)

(yes, you saw that coming..)

user136984

@Chan-HoSuh I'm not exaggerating what you are saying, you are saying things that I disagree with, and I am just saying what I think will happen if you people are allowed to have your way. I am not meaning to "caricature" you.

user136984

@terdon Yes, we started this whole big mess, and now we need to finish it, not just run away and hope it fixes itself.

terdon

@Seth Is there a meta post about this sort of thing, by the way? The AU room seems to be more set in its topicness than any others I know. Any subject is usually fair game in a chat room.

user136984

@Seth That would probably be a good idea.

terdon

4:22 PM

@ParanoidPanda Absolutely. However, contrary to popular belief, fire is not a good tool with which to fight fire.

Now, a fundamental rethink of US foreign policy in the middle east, particularly with respect to its relationship to Israel would be a good start.

user136984

@terdon: What do you do about terrorism then?

Serg

@terdon What happened with Nazis is that they have been stomped down, stopped. Appeasing them didn't work, as we know from history. Same thing here. Why we don't see more hydras from Nazi germany ? Cuz the US has killed many many germans during WW2. Because Nazis were brought down.

@terdon @ByteCommander OK, I'm here

Byte Commander

o/

user136984

\o

user136984

@terdon: You were going to say something?

terdon

4:30 PM

← 85 messages moved from Ask Ubuntu General Room

@ParanoidPanda First of all, you try to understand its roots. You simply can't stop it with troops. Been there, done that. Failed miserably.

Seth

now see, off-topic isn't bad, but 85 messages about a sensitive subject does tend to shut out more on-topic subjects from the room.

terdon

@Serg The Nazis were a completely different story. First of all, they were actually a government, officially in power. Not a shadowy organization working secretly. There was a state machine and a country to attack. Neither is the case here.

Byte Commander

There's still a lot of older messages about this in the AUGR...

user136984

@terdon: That's why it's so much more dangerous in this case, and they are much harder to defeat.

terdon

This ridiculous war on terrorism that that imbecile Bush started has been even less successful than the equally stupid and counter productive "War on drugs". The only thing it has achieved is to make the problem several orders of magnitude worse.

Byte Commander

4:33 PM

@Serg And today we have Neo-Nazis. :(

terdon

@ParanoidPanda Indeed. It therefore follows that the traditional approach of sending troops over to kill the bad guys won't work. The bad guys are indistinguishable from the general populace. What you need to do is address the main reasons why the bad guys hate you. And that has never been done, sadly.

If you take away the rational and justified reasons that many in the Arab east have for hating the Western world, the support for the extremists like ISIS will evaporate.

Serg

@ByteCommander yes, and I still believe Neo-Nazis should be stomped. At least they aren't a threat on that big of a scale as ISIS

terdon

Until you do that, no amount of killing will do anything useful at all. How many decades of failed attempts does it take to get that point across?

user136984

Well, in the case of IS, the reason why they hate us is because we are not Muslims and don't follow they laws.

user136984

They are just crazy extremists.

Serg

4:35 PM

@ByteCommander I've friends in Russia , Ukraine, who are Chinese exchange students. The fact that there are neo-nazis there is always at the back of my mind and they are always threat to my friends . . .

Byte Commander

@Serg Should be probably, but we don't even manage to prohibit the NPD. And if we would forbid it, they'd continue in the underground...

terdon

@ParanoidPanda Perhaps (though it is just a little more complex than that) but that is a tiny part of the problem. They are a vanishingly small proportion of Muslims. If you take out their support, they are irrelevant. The problem is that the expansionist and aggressive foreign policy pursued by the west these past 50 years (and the centuries before that) is playing into their hands and turning the moderates into extremists.

I'd likely become an extremist myself if my sister was killed in a drone strike while walking to work.

user136984

Well, us fighting them doesn't seem to be working, tolerating them doesn't seem to be working, so what do we do?

terdon

@ParanoidPanda Both, of course. 1) Change foreign policy. Now. Stop supporting Israel at the expense of its neighbors. Stop supporting murderous fascist regimes because they happen to be allies. Start having a fair foreign policy, not "our friends can have nuclear weapons and kill at will but not of you other guys can respond to that".

Byte Commander

@ParanoidPanda Help empowering strong democratic local governments in those states anyhow?

terdon

4:41 PM

2) Send actual troops and people who know what they're doing. Stop lying (Al Qaeda links to Iraq or Iraq's WMDs anyone?) and base your foreign policy on facts.

3) Stop arming the very groups you will go and destroy 10 years later.

Where do you think Osama learned to fight? Who gave the Taliban their weapons?

Stop giving people reason to hate you and they will stop hating you. Self evident, really. Those who don't will then lose their support among the general populace and will automatically become far less of a problem. Then, you will actually have help when going in and trying to get them.

As it stands, the US has started two expansionist wars in the last couple of decades, both of which were naturally resented by the locals who were killed and had their lands occupied.

Obviously, that gave rise to a lot of resentment and we're seeing the results today.

user136984

Ok, that will probably a good long term solution, however, what about the short term one? How do we stop them destroying the possibility of the long term solution?

terdon

@ParanoidPanda Start on the long term one. Give any sort of indication at all that we're not starting another crusade.

user136984

If anyone is starting a crusade, it's them.

terdon

In the mean time, try and police your state as best you can. There isn't much else you can do. History has very clearly shown that attempting to eradicate things by force doesn't work.

@ParanoidPanda You see, that's the thing. Yes, they are indeed on a religious war. They, however, did not start it. That's the problem. Well, that's part of the problem.

Chan-Ho Suh

well, police states can work pretty well, but most people in the free world are kind of leery of that

terdon

4:45 PM

@Chan-HoSuh Not a police state! I said police your state, that's very different.

Chan-Ho Suh

I know, just a coincidence in wording here

I think some other people here are saying we need to clamp down a lot more strongly on freedom of speech -- that's what I was referring to

terdon

Yes, obviously, we need a higher level of security at the moment. That, however, is not and cannot be a long term solution.

@Chan-HoSuh Counterproductive. It'll make martyrs of them.

When will people learn that you simply can't eradicate anything by legislation and suppression? Look at Christianity, drugs, alcohol, violence, prostitution. The list goes on.

Chan-Ho Suh

well, look at North Korea

works pretty well there

terdon

@Chan-HoSuh Give it time.

Chan-Ho Suh

we probably don't have that time

terdon

4:48 PM

But yes, in a totalitarian society, such things are easier to enforce. Presumably, none of us want our societies to turn into that.

Chan-Ho Suh

well, I like to try to approach things from the data perspective

the freedom of speech thing seems like a red herring

terdon

Meaning?

Chan-Ho Suh

AFAIK all the terrorists are just people that were already inclined to do terrorist activities before coming

they were given training before they came

so it's misleading to insist it's because the guy down the street publishes pamphlets that's causing terrorism

but it's a easy knee-jerk reaction to say, hey that guy must be causing this

we need to stop him from writing his pamphlets

it's harder to say, hey we need to control how these terrorists and their explosives get into the country

terdon

@Chan-HoSuh That simply doesn't work.

Chan-Ho Suh

which part?

terdon

4:52 PM

@Chan-HoSuh Attempting to stop the pamphlet writing. Someone else will pick it up again. What you need to do is stop people from being interested in the pamphlets and that can only be done through education.

Anything else will only be a stop gap measure and is far more likely to make things worse than better.

Serg

@terdon we are talking about people systematically dedicated to bringing terror and murdering western people, as well as spreading their jihadist ideology. Their freedom of speech that aims at promoting harm to people isn't freedom at all. Freedom of speech is in discussion, it's in respecting the other persons opinion. Those folks are all about destruction

terdon

@Serg I never mentioned freedom of speech. I am talking about whether or not a given approach has any chance of working.

Serg

Well, letting the pest spread in any form is not a good approach, at least IMHO

terdon

And, again, you have to ask yourself why they hate us so much. Yes, some of it is because of their sick ideology. Much of it, however, is based on history. We've done a hell of a lot of killing down there.

Chan-Ho Suh

another reason it's a bit of a red herring is I don't believe there's as much freedom of speech in France

terdon

4:55 PM

@Serg I don't deny that. My point is that trying to suppress it almost invariably fails and just makes it stronger.

Chan-Ho Suh

they are very aggressive there about curbing the time of activities we are discussing, I think

terdon

@Chan-HoSuh Huh? There is. There are certain laws against hate speech and denying the holocaust but not much more than that.

@Serg take, for example, early Christians. They were slaughtered and persecuted and hounded for many years. As you can see, that didn't work. Prohibition tried to get rid of alcohol and only succeeded in making it more expensive, more harmful and in the hands of the mob. Same goes for drugs.

I can't think of a single case where attempting to stop the spread of an idea by force ever worked.

Can you?

Chan-Ho Suh

I'm not saying it's necessarily codified in law, but some of the things the French government does or says would definitely not fly over here

like banning head scarves

Byte Commander

@terdon By law, probably. But there's community pressure as well as in Germany for example, I think. Some topics are better not publicly discussed and some opinions are better not publicly stated.

Chan-Ho Suh

or the president making anti-Muslim remarks

terdon

5:01 PM

@ByteCommander Exactly, community pressure works. If you're laughed or kicked out of a room for saying something, you'll stop saying it. If you're jailed, people will think you might have had a point and are being persecuted.

@Chan-HoSuh True. And a very large number of things the US government does wouldn't fly over there. Like detaining people with no charges or cops killing people they've arrested, or the state telling its citizens where they do and do not have a right to travel to.

@Chan-HoSuh What did he say? Don't forget that France has a huge Muslim population. One of the largest in Europe. They are not as assimilated as they should be but nor are they second class citizens by definition.

Serg

@terdon Christians weren't murderous extremists, and alcohol and drugs are objects that are consumed by people. I repeat, we are talking about straight murderers, people whose sole purpose is to bring terror. If that's not a good idea to outlaw and forcefully shutdown an ideology, I don't know what is

terdon

@Serg Christians weren't murderous extremists? Really?

Again, if I thought that outlawing would be effective, I'd be all for it. Personally, I would happily eradicate all religions. They have caused more death and suffering than just about anything else. My point is that outlawing stuff very simply doesn't work.

Serg

@terdon well at least not at first , not until they rose to power

Chan-Ho Suh

@terdon call me cynical, but I'd be surprised if the French government doesn't do some of the things you mentioned

terdon

@Serg Christians were murdering, raping and burning their way across most of the world for several centuries.

Chan-Ho Suh

5:09 PM

well, we don't have to go back that far in history

terdon

@Chan-HoSuh They don't. They might have some kind of Patriot act law in place permitting detention without cause (but I don't think so, and certainly not for as long as the US does) but they most certainly don't dictate where their citizens can and cannot go.

Chan-Ho Suh

well, I'm sure police violence happens there too, and unlawful detainment

terdon

@Chan-HoSuh No, but I thought I'd keep it old so as to avoid offending people. Christian fundamentalists are still around and still a bloodthirsty bunch.

@Chan-HoSuh Sure, point is that it isn't actually unlawful in the states.

Chan-Ho Suh

@terdon that's news to me

terdon

@Chan-HoSuh Patriot act?

Chan-Ho Suh

5:11 PM

Patriot act doesn't mean unlawful detainment

France has some tough anti-terrorist laws too

these laws generally lay out conditions, which may in practice appear to be indistinguishable in certain cases from unlawful detainment, but that's not quite the same thing

terdon

@Chan-HoSuh It made detention for several weeks with no charges legal in its first incarnation. That may have changed now.

Chan-Ho Suh

even so, depends what you mean by "unlawful"

terdon

Anyway, I'm no huge fan of the French government either. I'm just saying that calling it less "free" than the US is silly.

Chan-Ho Suh

even regular police are allowed to detain suspects without gathering evidence, in certain circumstances

Serg

Dumb-a$$ coworkers . . .she knows she has to give ID when checks out headphones

Byte Commander

5:13 PM

@Serg cough, cough... Crusaders?

Serg

@ByteCommander something like that

Chan-Ho Suh

well, it's hard for me to imagine my employer firing someone because they chose to wear a headscarf

terdon

@ByteCommander No need to even go back that far. The Iraq war was spearheaded by two religious fundamentalists. Bush and Blair.

Chan-Ho Suh

I guess that's the rub, France doesn't seem so free to certain groups of people

terdon

@Chan-HoSuh Neither does the US. Of the two, I'd much rather be in France. I'd also much rather be a Muslim in France. Having lived there for 4 years, I can attest that they are not treated as any kind of pariah. From what I hear (though no personal experience) that is increasingly not the case in the US.

Chan-Ho Suh

5:15 PM

actually, at some point I noticed the FBI is always putting down these extremist Christian groups in the US. It's just that these groups are not as organized, so we don't really hear about them as a threat in the popular media.

terdon

That will also probably change in France now too, of course.

Chan-Ho Suh

@terdon seems hard to believe, I don't see Muslims in the US being treated badly at all, certainly not as pariahs.

like I said, I don't see people losing their jobs and such because they are Muslim, like in France

Serg

@terdon there is of course a bit of stigma with being muslim in the US, but ain't no-one is bothering muslims here. At least in my state.

Chan-Ho Suh

I see Muslims in full religious garb on public transit, nobody bats an eye or gives them space as if in fear

terdon

@Chan-HoSuh When did that happen in France? Being told not to wear a headscarf and being fired because you're a muslim are two very different things.

Serg

5:20 PM

By the eway, did I mention that my Sudanese classmate is hot ?

Chan-Ho Suh

@terdon google is your friend :)

terdon

@Chan-HoSuh I see people in full burkas in France.

@Chan-HoSuh Huh? No, you made the claim, you back it up.

Chan-Ho Suh

well, I found the articles before <shrug>

terdon

@Serg Good to know. Not what I've heard the TSA does but very good to know.

Chan-Ho Suh

not too interested in looking up something i already know to prove some point

terdon

5:21 PM

Anyway, why did this turn into a US vs France discussion?

Chan-Ho Suh

because it's a conversation

and you disputed my original point but in tangential ways

rather than direclty

terdon

@Chan-HoSuh Then don't use it to make your point. Come on! You can't expect me to believe it just 'cause you said so! In any case, I'm sure you can find cases of religious discrimination in France just as I could for the US.

@Chan-HoSuh Oh? My bad then, I certainly wanted to dispute it directly.

Chan-Ho Suh

US courts wouldn't uphold it though like in France

Serg

Back to the original stuff - I still think ISIS should be eradicated

Chan-Ho Suh

and if you know France, you know about their secularism

terdon

5:23 PM

@Serg No argument there. The question is how.

@Chan-HoSuh Yes, one of the relatively few things I like about them.

But secularism != anti-muslim.

Chan-Ho Suh

so it shouldn't be that hard to understand why people can get fired for wearing Muslim garb and it will be upheld by the courts

anyway, the burka ban and subsequent headscarf business is a pretty well-known topic

I could google a bunch of links and put them here, but what's the point

terdon

@Chan-HoSuh Indeed. I wasn't disputing that. Though I think we're both pretty sketchy on the details. I used to see both headscarves and full burkas quite often in the streets of France.

Byte Commander

@Serg You did! ;)

Chan-Ho Suh

@terdon just for you :) economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2014/06/french-politics-0

terdon

@Serg My point is that sending good bullet after bad (to abuse a metaphor) is not very smart.

Serg

5:25 PM

@ByteCommander I did what ? Hopefully nothing bad ?

Byte Commander

6 mins ago, by Serg

By the eway, did I mention that my Sudanese classmate is hot ?

Chan-Ho Suh

that's just Serg's style :)

not the first time he's made ahem, interesting asides here :)

terdon

@Chan-HoSuh Thanks! :) And there you go, that's still quite specific. There were children involved. I would most certainly remove my child from any institution if one of its teachers wore a cross or a headscarf or any other religious symbol.

I would not choose to enforce that by state law though, no.

Byte Commander

@terdon You'd remove your kid from a school if a teacher would wear a cross? o.O Are you talking about a small necklace as cross or do you have something else in mind?

Chan-Ho Suh

anyway, my original point was I certainly don't see this excessive lenience toward extremist groups in France, that some people are seemingly alleging

it seems to me the French are less sympathetic to public promotion of Islamic extremism than in the US (but again, this is just my general impression)

so arguing that somehow freedom of speech is enabling terrorism, seems to be misplaced -- that was the gist of what i wanted to get at

terdon

5:31 PM

@ByteCommander I probably would yes. Religion is your own private thing and I'd rather let my kid make up their own mind. Plus, I have a very deep distrust of religion and was raised in a deeply religious society. I don't want that anywhere near a child of mine.

@Chan-HoSuh Damn, we could have avoided the whole side argument. I agree with you 100%.

Serg

my intwerwebs connection is being a big pile of d!cks from time to timei

Byte Commander

@terdon Okay. But that's a bit extreme and intolerant, don't you think?

Chan-Ho Suh

@terdon lol

terdon

@ByteCommander Extreme? Perhaps, in that it is more than what most people would do. Intolerant? Not at all! I don't care what they do in their own lives, I just don't want that affecting my child.

Chan-Ho Suh

@Serg somehow you came in very appropriately

Byte Commander

5:32 PM

I mean, I don't know how this is in Greece, but do you know how many people in Germany run around with symbols that could be interpreted in a religious way?

terdon

Given that I consider religion to be one of the worst ideas humanity ever came up with, I find its flaunting distasteful. It also implies certain things about the person doing the flaunting and that's (often, not always) not someone I would like to have around my child.

Serg

@Chan-HoSuh well, I hand nothing better to say . . .

terdon

@ByteCommander Same here. Probably much more so. Which is why I would chose a school that is explicitly secular in as much as I could. Sadly, the church is part of the state here and controls the curriculum so I'd do what I could.

But yes, I have rather extreme views on religion. I would never, ever consider attempting to force them on anyone else though. I would never vote for legislation making religion illegal, for example. I would be very happy if religion disappeared from the world but I would never attempt to force that.

Byte Commander

In my opinion, that's minor and everybody should have the freedom to live what they believe in. I agree with you that full burkas are something that should not be worn in public, but I don't really have a problem with anything else...

terdon

@ByteCommander Oh, hey, I never said they shouldn't be worn. As far as I'm concerned, you can wear what you like, believe what you wish and worship at the feet (or other appendages) of whatever deity you see fit.

Byte Commander

5:36 PM

What about Buddhism? I think they're pretty tolerant and don't have any of the big disadvantages of other big religions.

terdon

What I said is that I have the right to keep my child away from beliefs I consider harmful.

@ByteCommander Yes, that is better in many respects. No organized, hierarchical church for one thing.

Byte Commander

@terdon I disagree. You have the right to keep away your child from people forcing a belief on it, but otherwise you're forcing your own atheistic belief on it. that's not much better if you view it from that point.

terdon

Still not what I believe. But yes, I'd feel less uncomfortable if I knew my child's teacher is a Buddhist than I would with any of the Abrahamic religions.

Byte Commander

Everybody should have the right and the chance to decide themselves what they want. And having options is a prerequisite for that.

terdon

@ByteCommander Of course not! I would never (or at least, I would try very hard not to) attempt to impose my own belief either. What I want is for the child to make up their own mind. That can only be done if all choices are presented on an equal footing.

Chan-Ho Suh

5:38 PM

I'd be afraid of a Buddhist teacher messing up my kid's head with strange, nonsensical riddles or stories that end unexpectedly.

terdon

Better than strange nonsensical stories about a bloodthirsty and vengeful god. At least the puzzle would make them think a little.

Byte Commander

So it has to have contact with people of different religions, not be kept away from everybody that isn't an atheist or behaves non-religious...

Serg

Personally, I don't mind religions. I'm just . . . .apathetic to it personally. My family could be considered christians, but . . .I personally don't go to church . . . It's like meh . . .I don't care . . .A korean church dude was reading me bible for about an hour or so . . . .after that i was still like . . .meh

but yeah, religion has done goofed

terdon

@ByteCommander Of course. If the school had a teacher from each of the 5, say, major religions, I would feel far less uncomfortable with it.

Chan-Ho Suh

Serg, I'm pretty sure if it was a Korean church dudette, you'd be singing a different tune

Serg

5:40 PM

@Chan-HoSuh <.< sh!t this guy is onto me

terdon

I'm pretty sure that if it were a dudette with more tentacles than ears from Alpha Centauri, he'd be singing a different tune.

Chan-Ho Suh

>.>

terdon

I've kind of picked up that Serg has a thing for the ladies. :P

Chan-Ho Suh

or for tentacles?

Serg

O_O

Chan-Ho Suh

5:41 PM

sorry, I'll stop :)

terdon

@Chan-HoSuh Hope not. Poor squid.

Serg

How did this go from Paris to tentacles ?

terdon

@Serg Via Paris Hilton, probably.

Serg

oh, wow . . .just wow . . .I'm just gonna ROFL right here

Chan-Ho Suh

@terdon sounds like you want your child trained like one of the characters in a fantasy or sci-fi novel that get taught by the masters of various disciplins

"He will learn the Shaolin arts from this Buddhist monk..., science from the Jesuit priest"

terdon

5:43 PM

@Chan-HoSuh Ideally, yes. Wouldn't you?

Although please keep the priest away from science. Pretty please?

Serg

priest and science . . . .sounds a bit contradicting , no ?

Chan-Ho Suh

well, it's funny but the Catholic Church has a pretty good infrastructure for scientific knowledge, despite some famous misses (like with Galileo)

like their observatory

terdon

Well, yes. For a very long time, the only people doing science or having any education worth mentioning were the priests and monks.

They contributed enormously. It's a shame they can't move on from that.

Chan-Ho Suh

well, they gave a medal to Stephen Hawking ... they ain't all bad : casinapioiv.va/content/accademia/en/about/medal.html

Byte Commander

@Serg No. Many scientific stuff was discovered by priests. For example in astronomy. They just have nothing to do the whole week except on the Sundays, so much time to invest in science.

@Chan-HoSuh Yeah, it's one of the best in Europe, I've heard, right?

Chan-Ho Suh

5:50 PM

@ByteCommander yeah that's what i heard too

I have to dispute the "except on Sundays" thing though :)

I think the preservation of documents was also very important

terdon

As long as they were of the "right type", that is.

List of book-burning incidents

Notable book burnings have taken place throughout history. == AntiquityEdit == === Destruction of EblaEdit === Destruction of Ebla 2240 BC, then in 1600 BC. === Destruction of MariEdit === Destruction of Mari in 1765 BC. === Destruction of AlalakhEdit === Destruction of Alalakh circa 1200 BC. === Destruction of UgaritEdit === Destruction of Ugarit 1180 BC. === Library of Ashurbanipal (by Babylonians, Scythians and Medes)Edit === In 612 BC the Assyrian capital Nineveh was destroyed by a coalition of Babylonians, Scythians and Medes. During the burning of the Royal Palace, a great...

Byte Commander

Have to leave the discussion at this point. Bye!

Serg

Back . My usb dongle wouldn't find access points and internal wifi card attempts to connect but doesn't succeed, so had to reboot

Sawarnik

6:09 PM

@ByteCommander I would say that more harm had been done by them than good, when talking of scientific discoveries.

terdon

@Sawarnik That's probably harder to prove. Newton himself was deeply religious. I'm not saying you're wrong, only that it will be hard to prove since so many of the giants of science were actually either very religious or bona fide priests (Occam comes to mind).

Serg

Harm has stronger impression. It's like , a person might be a genius scientist, but once he/she goes nuts and punches kittens in the face, it's hard to erase the negative image of that person

terdon

Well, we've forgotten how huge an asshole Newton was. Granted, he wasn't a homicidal maniac or anything but still, by all accounts, he was a very unpleasant person.

Chan-Ho Suh

6:49 PM

@Serg that's right ... which is why we need to be careful about making these assessments off an impression

Newton was a funny guy alright. He was really into alchemy, the whole turning lead into gold thing

philosopher's stone, the whole bit

I was reading about Dalton and Boltzmann... very religious

terdon

11:54 PM

@ParanoidPanda it's late so I only did a perfunctory search but here are a few equally abhorrent verses from the bible:

> Make ready to slaughter the infidel’s sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and possess the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21)

Then I heard God say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.” (Ezekiel 9:5)

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, kee…

Serg

@terdon you have time to critique my answers on U&L ?

I've answered a few there today

terdon

@Serg Sure, linky?

Nah, wait, I'll check your account

Serg