@SoylentGray Yeah that's a better way of looking at it. Nonetheless in this case, I find the sincerity of the question questionable. It was just added later on after it was pointed out that the rant did not actially have a question. Anyway that question is off topic here, and I can't see a way to salvage it.
Legally is absolutely not on topic. Ethically probably would be. But more specifically I think you should give context in an actual situation
Because, for instance, "Should I mention mental disorders when writing a recommendation letter?" is a very different question to "Should I mention that a candidate is bipolar when asked as a reference about their personality?"
So the question before me that's most concerning is "if you were in a position to do so, would you hire her?" I would have reservations--probably illegal ones!--because of what I know. But I've got honest, positive things to say about her strengths in her field.
Though both of those are probably still bad because they ask what you should do rather than what sort of thought process you should apply to the situation.
Asking if folks would hire her is definitely not on-topic (100% subjective, after all)
I can see a billion good questions you could write on the subject, from how to bring it up if asked by an employer you recommended her to, to whether or not it is helpful/ethical to explain someone has a medical condition as a reference when asked about their behavior as a reference.
I'd probably write it out as, "What are my obligations as a reference for someone I know to be bipolar?" and flesh out what specific situation you're asking about in the question. In this case "I have a friend who is one of the finest in her field, but I know that she is not always in control. Since we are friends, she's told me that she is bipolar. I am acting as a reference and I want her to have the best chance of getting a job, what are my obligations to the employer and my friend?"
And I'd probably be more specific about the capacity in which you're acting as a reference (are you just a person listed at the end of the resume? Are you writing a recommendation letter? Do you have personal connections at that company that you're using to get her foot in the door? etc.)
But yeah, as long as you avoid asking people to tell you what to do, or what's legal, and you give enough context that the question is focused I think it should be fine however you write it.
@jmac In this case it's just that I'm one of the listed references places can contact. I'll be sure to make that clear--I wasn't thinking of all the ways in which one can be a reference.
@nitsua60 Maybe I've been overseas too long, but reference letters and the like also used to be a thing. If you're just saying you're available to be contacted as a reference it's actually probably irrelevant since I don't think employers would ever be so bold as to ask about mental illness or the like to a reference on a resume.
(still an interesting question, but the only way it'd actually be relevant is if the employer called you as a reference and started asking about personality, which would be rather odd since they would have likely interviewed the candidate at least once already. Most references, as I understand it, are there to corroborate stuff like work history, etc.)
No, they're not asking about mental illness, but they're asking "would you hire?" And the answer is "if I only know what I would from working with her, yes. But in reality, no. But the thing I know in reality that makes her a bad hire IMO is a thing I'm not legally allowed to talk to you about."
Maybe it's just my problem--I haven't really wrapped my head around the fact that the law requires my answer to be "yes" even in my "in reality" clause up there ^^
Because I'm not allowed to discriminate along that axis.
@nitsua60 Woah, yeah, it does sound like your problem -- if you're not comfortable saying to an employer that she should be hired, you probably shouldn't ask to be listed as a reference.
(Because that's the point of being a reference after all)
@jmac I didn't ask to be a reference, I agreed to be one. (And I've got an "always say 'yes' policy on references. My assumption is that if I'm a mediocre reference, I'm probably still the best one that person's got.)
@nitsua60 Personally I'd let my friend know what I would say if asked/what makes me struggle to give a positive "yes I'd hire" reference. And if that person, knowing that, still wants you to be a reference then that's cool -- it's their choice. It sounds like you haven't had that conversation with her, which doesn't sit right with me.
At the end of the day your friend may agree that your mediocre reference is better than others she could get. But maybe not. And that's really not your choice to make. While it's nice that you are always willing to be a reference if asked, it's not so nice if your friend gets blindsided by your reference not being positive.
It's a good point for the future; the ship's sailed this time, thogh, as she's already listed me and I've already been contacted by a prospective employer.
Whenever I have someone who I have reservations about who wants my help to get a job (either through an introduction, or whatever) I am upfront with them about what I will do for them. If the person is truly awesome I will put in a good word for them, and if it's someone who I have reservations about/don't know enough about in a working environment, I tell them that I will give them an introduction/pass along their resume, but won't be doing much beyond that.
But I'm out of trouble, since I think that I can, with a clear conscience, now say "yes, I'd hire her." Because what I know (personally) isn't legally on the table when hiring.
It feels like mental acrobatics. "My answer is no, but since that no is based on information I have and the employer shouldn't have access to, I can change that no to a yes and feel fine about it."
To me it sounds like you're playing semantics because you're in a sticky spot of your own making, and this is the cleanest way to get the desired result. Which is fine. But I'd just want to be sure that you're clear on the fact that it's an ethically murky choice.
I don't know the relevant laws where you are, but even if there are laws preventing discrimination on the basis of medical conditions, that doesn't mean that any decision not to hire based on someone's 'lack of control' as you put it is discrimination on the basis of a medical condition.
If, for instance, I'm a hiring manager and during the interview process the candidate shows a lack of control and I decide not to hire, that would in many cases be perfectly okay (not illegal). What would be illegal is if I was going to hire the candidate, found out somehow that they had a medical condition, and changed my decision on the basis of that information.
What you're essentially saying here is "All the reasons I would not hire I'm attributing to the mental illness and since I can't make a decision based on someone's medical conditions I would need to say that I'd hire", but that's a rationalization that just wraps things up neatly rather than an acknowledgment that it's not that simple.
Because that is 100% true. 100% not answering the question, and they'll probably pick up on that, but at least you're not violating anyone's trust or being dishonest.
Yes, I would dodge the question because it's the only ethical choice given the situation (according to my own code of ethics, mind)
Again, if you can live with the mental gymnastics that are required to feel it's fine saying "Yes, I'd hire her" with the understanding that you're relying on semantics to give that answer and it's a bit ethically gray at best, then go ahead it's your choice. But if you ask me what I'd do, that's a different story.
But yeah, hopefully at the very least you learn something from this. It would make a far better question now that I understand it though, and would enjoy reading the answers from the community.
Question would basically be background (have a friend, know friend is bipolar, offered to be a reference, wouldn't hire, was directly asked by the employer if I'd hire, but the reasons I wouldn't are because of the bipolar thing): How should I respond to the question?
Or not 'how should?' but rather 'how can I respond to this in a way that won't violate my friend's trust, give her the best chance of getting her hired, but not outright lying?'
(I'd probably also explain that you realize it may have been better not to be a reference in this case but the ship's sailed on that unfortunately)
So about six weeks ago, my mother’s illness took a turn for the worst, and I took some time off work to take care of her. It was all very rushed because we never expected her condition to worsen so quickly and things were just very messy. I was also pretty stressed at the time and perhaps I didn’...
Don't think the above is one the good people of Workplace SE can help with but I just can't help thinking holy shit!! I did wonder if the question might be fake but it actually seems too absurd to be fake if that makes sense
@Kaz Maybe it's because I'm old, or have a weirdness magnet, or both, but I've seen so many bizarre things on the job from people having "relations" to monitoring bathroom time, to moving someone to a closet with literally nothing to do all day to make him quit to a number of other things you'd swear I was making up...
But I have a hard time disbelieving anything.
@motosubatsu TRUE STORY: Someone told a hiring manager that I couldn't start because I had broken my let. I found out about it and told them "no, my leg is not broken", but yes, it really happened.
@RichardU Similar to yourself I suppose I've seen far too many bizarre (or outright insane) situations at various jobs over the years that I struggle to dismiss something on weirdness alone
Hell, one previous boss of mine demanded that my colleague (who was also a friend that I rented a room off at the time) evict me!
Maybe I'm just young and naive, and maybe it's just because I've only ever had this one job with awesome people in a small, closely-knit company, but I still can't quite bring myself to really believe that the world works that way.
@Kaz I'm pushing 50 and have worked in hellish environments and even had to attend a funeral of a coworker who was killed on the job due to damn stupid reasons. Dilbert is popular for a reason. Some would even say that Scott Adams plays it down a bit.
@Kaz PS. STAY WHERE YOU ARE!!!!!
@motosubatsu I might post in here three situations, two true stories and one lie, and see if anyone can spot the made up one.
@RaoulMensink they like to keep it quiet. The story usually goes something like... strange deaths occur, it turns out that a particular doctor/nurse was on duty. Evidence is gathered. Person is made to resign. Person moves on to another hospital. Repeat for about 10-15 years.
The hospitals keep it quiet, because they don't want to get sued and just push the psychos out and then let someone else deal with them.
@RichardU Honestly, it's just mental shorthand for me.
Other common responses from me: "Awesome. Cool. Will do."
I try very hard to produce an association in other peoples' minds of "Asking zak questions/help/advice == positive response"
On the downside, it makes interruptions a problem, but that's a price I'm willing to pay for the time being to cement my position as the person who solves everyones' problems.
I think that a fair bit of questions could be tagged with "credibility" to signify that the asker is either trying to prove their credibility, or evaluate another's credibility.
That said, I'm new to this site, so I am curious to see what other seasoned members think of this.
I think that a fair bit of questions could be tagged with "credibility" to signify that the asker is either trying to prove their credibility, or evaluate another's credibility.
That said, I'm new to this site, so I am curious to see what other seasoned members think of this.
The Water Cooler
The Water Cooler