The Water Cooler

5:04 AM

@gnat Incidents like these put an interesting spin on the claim that the workplace is becoming increasingly rude and hostile. Look how we welcome rubbish with open arms. Who sees us as rude exactly?

Richard U

1:15 PM

@MaskedMan primarily people under 30 see us as rude. I have a few theories as to why.

David K

@StackExchange After this year, I don't think I can deal with another election.

Magisch

1:55 PM

@RichardU One of the reasons is (for me) why you sometimes come across as unnecessarily rude is the attitude

many in my generation care exactly 0 about their employer. They care about what their employer can do for them, and their care for the job ends exactly where the contract says work duties are completed.

Like, the idea of unpaid overtime or (as recently) being told you get to re-train as statistician without a significant pay bump, it invokes the "no, and it's very rude to even try that" visceral response.

Richard U

2:19 PM

@Magisch it's generational. what your generation considers rude, mine considered to be a requirement.

your generation is also very impatient and has no sense of loyalty, IMO

Magisch

It's indicating a shift in employee-employer relations

Loyalty is earned, imo

Richard U

@Magisch it is also a two-way street.

Magisch

My employer doesn't care a lick about me (for most employers) beyond what I produce, so why should I extend loyalty to them?

I know full well if it was legally allowed they'd screw me more, thats not exactly the kind of company that creates loyalty

Richard U

@Magisch The answer is to make yourself more valuable to a new employer.

Magisch

or not

Richard U

2:21 PM

I've done that several times. I didn't like where I was, so I left

Magisch

not everyone strives to earn more and more money

Richard U

@Magisch including me.

Magisch

I'd be content with enough to live on and then my employer to leave me the hell alone with anything exceedingly stressful

Richard U

@Magisch money is actually far down on the list as to why people leave their positions

I've turned down jobs for more money because of the stress level, at this point, it would literally kill me.

Magisch

Impatience is also relative

The generation before us is retiring much later then their previous generation did, and added to that is economic pressure from automation.

Richard U

2:24 PM

@Magisch not really. You don't see anyone over 30 putting up questions about leaving a job after 8 months because their smarter than their seniors

Magisch

There is also a pervasive "screw you, got mine" attitude going around with lots of older people. Unsurprising that many young people these days are very angry at the older people.

Richard U

@Magisch No, the attitude is more "Screw you, I EARNED mine, now earn yours"

Magisch

There's also a lot of social conditioning involved

@RichardU apples to oranges

Richard U

@Magisch nope, apples to apples

Magisch

nobody'd be complaining about college costs if you could still pay your way through college with a part time job requiring nothing but a HS degree

Richard U

2:26 PM

@Magisch I don't have a degree

Magisch

That was but one example

nobody'd be complaining about housing prices if you could still own a home at 25 as a average high school dropout working construction or whatnot

Richard U

I ran out of money during college, worked construction, got injured and partially crippled myself for life. took classes at night while working to get a certificate form a trade school

Magisch

You're the exception, grats

Richard U

@Magisch no, nothing exceptional about me. I was dealt a very poor hand in life, I am just one determined old fart

Magisch

Young people see just how easy their parents had it compared to themselves and go "well thats not fair now is it"

(on average)

Richard U

2:28 PM

@Magisch the tragedy of your generation is that you honestly believe we had it easy.

so when the world hits you full force in the face, it seems horrific

Magisch

my father lounged around doing exactly nothing until 27 and then took an assistant office clerk job that requires no education and pays 7 times (adjusted for inflation) what I make as a developer now.

most parents of millenials/genXers had it that easy

Richard U

@Magisch and I make less now than I did 15 years ago.

Magisch

Now he's making 6 figures (having done nothing but move numbers in excel all his life) and wondering why young people struggle

Already established, you're not representative

Richard U

@Magisch yeah, getting drafted and going off to war, double digit inflation, the oil embargo, we had it real easy.

Magisch

on average, your generation is doing much better then the one that came after

so much better in fact that young people are mostly looking at it like generational treason and breaking of the social contract

Richard U

2:30 PM

@Magisch that's your perception.

Magisch

the social unrest in europe and the US doesn't come from nowhere

Richard U

@Magisch that's a logical fallacy.

Magisch

we're one bad depression away from massive social unrest

Richard U

What are you saying, that we asked for it because our dresses were too short?

Magisch

the currently rich people would do good to know that in the next recession, their lives may well be on the line.

Richard U

2:32 PM

@Magisch class envy is not a new thing.

Magisch

It's hardly ever been worse though

Richard U

@Magisch really? My grandparents lived through the 1920s in Germany, want to tell me how much better off they were?

Magisch

If you look at the us, throw in one bad recession and people may decide to just mob rich people on the street until the government implements changes. Some of the riots are already not far from that.

@RichardU You know how that ended

Problem is many older (and by and large richer) people don't realize that people asking for social change aren't just asking for the poor people's sakes. Social instability in the west is at a 100 year high. Now they can still enact change without massive social unrest. If they keep resisting, another french revolution type event may be at hand soon.

Richard U

@Magisch of course you're going to be richer when you're older. You save and invest.

But that's the problem, your generation walks out of uni expecting to suddenly be on a par with people who have been working for decades

Magisch

right, but the inequality has to be kept at acceptable levels

currently it's not

Richard U

2:39 PM

@Magisch who decides what's acceptable?

Magisch

History is one long chain of rich people ignoring the pleas of the poor to stop screwing them until the poor decide enough is enough and then it all ends with the rich people's heads on spikes.

Richard U

@Magisch a society that emphasizes equality over liberty gets very little of either, but one that emphasizes liberty over equality gets a high degree of both.

Magisch

@RichardU Poor people do, by group. The only choice of the others is to give in willingly or be made to give in

Richard U

@Magisch so, who did Steve Jobs force to give in? Bill Gates? Oprah Winfrey? Walt Disney? Milton Hershey?

Magisch

Not yet

Maybe the governments will wise up in time this time

Richard U

2:42 PM

@Magisch like they did in East Germany? Would you rather drive a Mercedes or a trabant?

Magisch

If they don't, a lot of innocent semi wealthy people will feel the pain of the coming revolution. (If you think thats dramatic, revolutions happened over less dire circumstances)

@RichardU I'm not arguing against capitalism itself

Richard U

@Magisch in other words, your advocating generational robery

Magisch

I'm saying a capitalist state needs strong social protections to keep inequality low-enough-to-prevent-social-unrest

Richard U

@Magisch yes, you are arguing against capitalism and the free market

Magisch

Not everything is one or the other

Richard U

2:44 PM

@Magisch sure it is.

Magisch

regulated capitalism is good, we both agree. We just disagree about the level of regulation.

Richard U

A regulated market is not a free market. You cannot have a free regulated market.

Magisch

@RichardU Look at it this way. The current rich people refuse to give up a fair share (in the poor people's eyes) of the wealth, so eventually they'll just be overthrown.

Richard U

They've been trying for over 150 years now to find that magic formula you're looking for. NONE of them have been successful, there is a reason for that.

Magisch

Ideally, as a rich person, you'd like to avoid that. Because being overthrown usually comes with other, even less pleasant side effects.

Richard U

2:45 PM

@Magisch what is a "fair share" in the USA, the "rich" pay 90% of the taxes

Magisch

@RichardU You agree with market regulation already

@RichardU Taxes are only one piece of a larger equation.

Richard U

@Magisch I believe in contract law, which is necessary for a free market

Magisch

So you'd do away with all food regulations?

all medicine regulations?

Richard U

@Magisch fraud is illegal

and always will b3e

Magisch

aha but thats a regulation

Richard U

2:47 PM

no, it's not. it's contract law.

Magisch

most laws actually are

Richard U

Do you know what "to regulate" means? It means to make regular, as in standardize.

Magisch

You can try and seperate it any way you want to slice is but fact is you're already a socialist, and our disagreements are only in how far we want regulation to go

Richard U

@Magisch that's a fallacy of construction. If one brick is red, it does not mean the entire building is

@Magisch but you are pointing out generational differences. Your generation sees wealth and assumes it was gotten by nefarious means. Your generation also wants instant gratification.

You keep saying I'm exceptional. The only thing that is exceptional about me is my drive, which sadly was the norm, once upon a time.

Magisch

@RichardU Thats anright, because most wealth is

numerically speaking

We disagree someone can be a billionaire and have earned it

No such thing

So we'll take it from them. The disagreement is about the means.

Richard U

2:52 PM

@Magisch so, steve jobs didn't earn his money?

Magisch

no he didnt

not by a long shot

Richard U

And what is your basis for that position?

Magisch

I'd venture to say that there's probably less then a thousand people who have justly earned even a million in personal assets

Richard U

Steve jobs literally changed the world with his invention

Magisch

right. So did the guy who made the polio vaccine

nobody deserves a billion dollars

nobody deserves that kind of wealth in a world where poor people exist

Richard U

2:53 PM

@Magisch If I developed the cure for cancer, would I deserve a billion dollars?

Magisch

no

a nobel prize, probably, but not a billion dollars. There are about 3 billion people in line who need their 100 dollars more then you need your billion

Richard U

So, you would deny the world a cure for cancer because of your own greed?

@Magisch so, what do you think a "fair" way of earning money?

Magisch

You wouldn't have the option of not sharing it

Richard U

@Magisch, so you would take it by force?

Magisch

seizing property and patents for the public good isn't news or controversial

Richard U

2:54 PM

That's called slavery

Magisch

in abstract maybe

Richard U

@Magisch no, in a very real way.

Why do you think that the communist countires never prosprered?

Magisch

others call it just contribution to a society that permits you to do these things to begin with

Richard U

If I employ 100,000 people, am I not contributing to society?

Magisch

This has nothing to do with authoritharian communism, which is closer to fascism then actual liberalism

You contribute according to your abilities

Richard U

2:56 PM

But, to follow your logic, would you agree that we should execute the poor, as they are NOT contributing to society, as George Bernard Shaw stated?

Magisch

no lol

everyone contributes as much as they're able to without taking away their means of living

Richard U

@Magisch So, it's "From each according to his means to each according to his needs"

Magisch

there's a number where wealth means nothing anymore for happiness and general wellbeing

Richard U

@Magisch but the poor do not even contribute to society, enough to support themselves.

Magisch

that number is at around 70k a year a person atm

Richard U

2:57 PM

@Magisch my medical bills are higher than that

Magisch

can't expect me to shed a tear for anyone forced to give up a lot if they still have more then that

in a just society, medical expenses aren't a factor you personally bear but one society as a whole does.

Richard U

@Magisch so, you would confiscate everything I make over 70K and let me die in the streets

Magisch

24 secs ago, by Magisch

in a just society, medical expenses aren't a factor you personally bear but one society as a whole does.

Richard U

@Magisch where do you think the resources to provide medical care come from?

Magisch

right now, over here your medical expenses would be around 7% of your income, the monthly mandatory insurance premium.

from the people who make a lot but don't use a lot that we can take that money away from without impoverishing them, of course

Draken

2:59 PM

So, who likes Chocolate? I do!

2

Magisch

also single payer means costs go down in general

Richard U

@Draken me too

@Draken Hershey's Nestley or cadburry>?

Magisch

your 70+k/yr would be like 20k or so in a real non captive market

Richard U

@Draken I prefer Hershey's myself

Draken

Fraid since Cadbury got taken over, it's Lindt these days

@RichardU Far too salty for my liking, but each to their own :D

Richard U

3:02 PM

@Draken I like Lindt white chocolate. I agree with the saltiness though. I wish they made chocolate with less salt. and this "Salted caramel" craze is disgusting.

Magisch

salted caramel: unhealthy in 3 distinctive ways

Richard U

I had a "salted caramel" hot chocolate from Dunkin Donuts, and almost vomited after the first sip. I threw the rest of it out.

Magisch

whats even the point of that

to consume even more salt and sugar? It tastes like garbage given teste.

Draken

3:19 PM

So, is it bad that I like salted caramel and not salted chocolate? Oh what is this world coming to!

enderland

@RichardU we went to a lindt chocolate store recently and bought a bunch of them. Lots of interesting flavors in store you don't see elsewhere

orange, cappuchino, coffee, more than they have on their site actually

orange and chocolate is the best combination though

Christopher Estep

@Magisch combining opposing flavors is a very common. Think Sweet & Sour.

enderland

when I make curry the goal is to blend sweet, spicy, and salty perfectly

Christopher Estep

3:35 PM

exactly

I personally don't like sweets except in desserts but I get the idea.

It's hard for me to find chinese places I like because often the brown sauce is sweet and I can't stand it.

Richard U

@ChristopherEstep I grew up in a traditional German household. The only thing sweet was desert, and then served with coffee to balance it.

Christopher Estep

I had someone give me a McGriddle once and I gagged. Why ruin a perfectly "good" McMuffin with syrup?

enderland

@RichardU that's what I miss most from Germany. coffee and kuchen

well, that and pork schnizel (spelled horribly wrong)

Richard U

@enderland my mother made the best Zwetschgenkuchen.

and a great sauerbraten

Magisch

4:28 PM

@RichardU I'm not very partial to sweets

mostly salty things

Christopher Estep

6:51 PM

This is hilarious. This guy posts a question about "his colleague" not wanting to give out his linkedin and then changes it to himself. He then posts his picture to which I say "I just found out who you are by your picture" so he not only deletes the picture, his entire account is gone.

1

Q: Client ask linkedIn contact for employee who doesn't want to share it

I just joined a maintenance project. For every new people joining the project, the client immediately asks the firstname and lastname of the newcomer and ask them as relation on LinkedIn. He said that he likes knowing who works with him. The others developers on the project didn't mind and accep...

(for the record, I'd never share his name and told him that after he took off his pic)

Richard U

7:51 PM

@ChristopherEstep well, we're approaching a new moon, so that rules out the full moon theory. Still gotta laugh when someone doxes themselves. I think I gave out a similar warning to someone before

Christopher Estep

I've had to do it several times

Richard U

8:23 PM

@ChristopherEstep back in the days of the usenet, you had to put in an effort to dox someone, now they seem to be more than willing to do it for you.

Christopher Estep

well, yeah. Usenet was the extent of social media. I created an alt heirarchy group one time. Just flashed back.

Richard U

9:19 PM

@ChristopherEstep remember shutting down idiots with a Passive Ignore Simultaneous Strike? I won't post the acronym, as it would get deleted quickly.

If I post my honest feelings on this post, I won't break the "be nice" rule, I shall reduce it to dust.

-5

Q: How can I tell a recruiter that I don't believe in resumes

Alternative question : Should I tell a recruiter that I don't believe in resumes? I am a developer (techlead) and I firmly believe that what I bring to the table won't be seen on Currivulum Vitae. I won't write much about why I think that, a lot of articles are talking about it much better than ...

resume

Christopher Estep

9:54 PM

I think he got my point though. I think he was sincere actually.

DrunkenSanta9035768

10:36 PM

@Magisch yeah we fought a war with britan in 1770's over this. And the US is ready for a civil war now... probably would not be a good time for the government to start trampling property rights.

@RichardU yeah sometimes its best to just let the questions go away...

I cant believe it isnt closed and deleted yet

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