The Water Cooler - 2013-08-07 (page 1 of 2)

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9:57 AM

2

Q: How to ask boss to not use profane expressions

I find some of the things my boss and coworkers say slightly offensive. For example my boss was talking about facebook apps asking for permission and he said "they ask 'do you want us to take your testicles or intestines?'" or "the department pooped when they came out with this product". My boss ...

professionalism work-environment conflict

trying hard to avoid answering: "just tell them to shut the @#$% off"

in The Whiteboard, Jul 16 at 14:54, by gnat

...Once I've been paid monthly about 1/1600 of what our 4-month (and rather hard one) project has been sold for to customer, I passed fucks around so frequently and loud that guys from other rooms (located far away, behind closed doors) came to my boss complaining. He in turn, came to me and politely asked me if I could stop. And I in turn was telling him to shut the fuck off. And he shut off...

in The Whiteboard, Jul 16 at 14:54, by gnat

...This all changed after I got like 5x raise. I began watching my language

i think its an interesting quesiton, on the one hand if you dont like it then go work somewhere else, you cant force everyone to your ideals just because you want to

but at the same time you can hardly ask in an interview, 'oh does the boss swear a lot? because thats a deal breaker'

4 hours later…

1:37 PM

@gnat a 5x raise? where can I sign up! :)

1:55 PM

@enderland best i ever got was a 66% one, a 500% would be insane! :P

@RhysW I would LOVE a 66% raise

that would put me into "more money than I know what to do with" territory immediately, since I'm already saving a ton each month :D

haha sounds good :P but 66% wasnt exactly a lot for me as i started on an apprenticeship wage :P

thats the problem with percentages, if you only have a small amount to start with then even 100% is still not alot xd

@RhysW I'm hopeful that if I get this other job I'll get a 15-20% raise

and you are right, though

a 10% raise for someone who can easily save money already is basically 10% (less taxes) more they can save

but if you are making minimum wage, it's not quite so awesome - but it DOES have a much more pronounced life effect

true my tax is minimal and my company pays for literally everything else, so 100% of my wage is saved at the moment

so i cant complain too much

@enderland wow, thats quite a raise

@RhysW that's awesome! being smart about your money when you are young ---> awesome later

@RhysW I'm optimistic, what can I say :P

2:01 PM

haha, i might have to move companies soon though, or ill always be far below my worth pay wise

@RhysW Getting living expenses paid for is a good perk though

its not permanent, i only get it for about another year, still a good deal though

that's gotta be worth quite a bit a year in extra pay

but if i stay here my pay will always be judged by the fact i started low, if i move companies they dont know me as the aprentice, and i can instead get paid by my experience and worth, which (not to blow my own horn) is far more than im actually paid

is your job title/position "apprentice" ?

2:04 PM

currently, but its being changed

technically i dont have a title at the moment

you might get a good raise out of that

they removed my old one, but no good one yet

@enderland yeah my 66% one :P

my company has salary ranges based on title/pay grades

the main reason i am still here is the training opportunities

the more skills i can get the more hard evidence i have of my worth, companies are weird :P

Yeah it's an interesting game

2:21 PM

@enderland oh that's easy. Find a job with crappy pay, wait until it gets hot project, survive through it, get an offer from the guys who paid for that project. A simple path to 5x raise

@gnat hmmmmmm the only problem with that is that I currently work for one of the larger corporations which would likely be paying for that project... hmm

@enderland so am I. No luck for guys like us

@gnat well, generally you make more money in that sort of company anyways (theoretically)

@enderland yes that sort of makes it less painful to know there will be no 5x raise :)

@gnat a 5x raise right now would be so ridiculously mind blowing and crazy I would not believe someone offering it to me

2:25 PM

@enderland agree

@gnat I dont think I will ever make an inflation adjusted 5x my current pay, lol

im in a big company too, not Jmac big but big ish, but im tempted to use my youth and spend some time in start ups

key thing is to keep an eye on a job market. Once you have enough data to decide you're getting competitive pay, stuff like 5x becomes unlikely

@gnat I'm slightly underpaid I think now, but I'm also in a similar situation to @RhysW where my current job is technically a development type job

course, living in the Midwest affects that a fair bit too :P

@enderland i think we are in the same boat, just a few years apart

2:28 PM

@enderland oh that's a different thing. Slight variations are of course natural

slightly under or over

@gnat yeah. my company has very generous benefits too, so I can't just compare straight salary

which is so much easier! :)

yeah its easy when there is just one number to look at

we have a solid vacation schedule, bonus structure, and generous company match (though the latter two are somewhat performance based, so I can't "count on" them necessarily)

the key here is how much effort one is willing to put to squeeze that slight difference. If it's not a 5x diff, if it's like 5-10% diff, rules of the game become complicated

@gnat yup. plus the environment/people factor is huge then, too

zero chance of putting me into a really stressful/pain in the ass boss environment for a 10% raise

2:32 PM

negotiations come down to being a people person or not most of the time, regardless of your actual skill

@RhysW so true

55

A: Why is it important to gain "visibility" in the workplace?

If I can write awesome code, why should I care about having visibility? The work I am doing rocks, then why should I think about standing on the roof top and telling about it. The Lie The important thing to realize is - no one cares about what you do at work. No one cares how great your cod...

see that answer :)

thankfully that bodes well for me

and I'm not sure I agree, if you are doing a negotiation internally perhaps - because you are less likely to discuss via email

as i have the same scenario as one of the other askers, i look a lot younger than i am

2:33 PM

but any engineer/software type can do a negotiation by email :P

@enderland ah i meant in person, i should have clarified

I have a lot of experience with negotiation, albeit on a much smaller scale, from my youth

and I enjoy it :)

@enderland not sure what to make of that :P

@RhysW I did all sorts of collectable trading

@enderland ah what kind if you dont mind my probing?

2:45 PM

@RhysW CCGs

I probably made several thousand trades around the world back in that day, mostly in person though

@enderland ccg's?

Collectible card game

A collectible card game (CCG), also called a trading card game (TCG) or customizable card game, is a game played using specially designed sets of playing cards. While trading cards have been around for longer, CCGs combine the appeal of collecting with strategic gameplay. The first collectible card game was The Base Ball Card Game produced by The Allegheny Card Co. and registered on April 5 1904. The game ', designed by Richard Garfield and published by Wizards of the Coast in 1993, is often thought to be the first CCG, though the game did popularize and reignite interest in collectibl...

ah right ok, with you now

multiple games or just one/

primarily one

sounds fun, i used to collect stones, they were free

2:49 PM

lol. I think I probably was about a net of zero on the game, sold it all for $2k a few years ago

i had an odd childhood

not sure if I put more into it or not - but I definitely got many many many hours out of it!

thats the important thing

i dont understand the collecters who never use the stuff

indeed. but I consistently was trading my "non easily moveable" cards into "more moveable" cards

and over the course of years that built up a lot higher perceived value

at the end of the day you will end up without it so may aswell collect things you will get use or enjoyment out of

2:51 PM

Yeah, I spend many hours in my childhood playing card games - either CCGs or just "normal" card games like whist/bridge/pinochle

3:05 PM

hm, might have finally been able to find an affordable apple mini-usb keybaord

@enderland affordable..apple??

@RhysW apple keyboards are the best

and apple is the ONLY nice usb-mini keyboard right now :(

but they don't make it anymore

3:28 PM

yeah i was more confused by an apple product being good AND affordable :P

they are, at least in the USA

really? i sold my soul to get an apple product

was easier than selling a limb

5 years ago apple was super overpriced

2

but at least in hte USA if you want a comparable machine, you will pay similar from all other manufactuers

fair enough, i have nothing against apple, i just make that comment because its the general consensus

people arent happy with paying more for benefits they cant 'see' if its not on the screen its not worth it to some

3:45 PM

right. people also have a tendency to make hardware comparisons purely based on processor speed and number of cores, ignoring everything else

@enderland but enderland its faster how is that not better! :P

4:31 PM

You may not be wrong but I'm extremely disappointed at the high vote score here. This does not give even an ounce of thought to substantial portions of the question. My rule of thumb: the answer should at least be as long/detailed as the question. — NickC 9 hours ago

@NickC I agree completely, but it seems this is yet another symptom of "QUIT YOUR JOB" syndrome

5:07 PM

I thought @Chad was taking a sabbatical?

@JimG. he is

5:46 PM

@Chad I can completely understand why the "JUST QUIT!" stuff is so frustrating, the site culture here is completely a "yeah JUST QUIT STICK IT TO THEM" culture

6:08 PM

@enderland without any evidence too most of the time

1 mistake does not a bad company make

@RhysW washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/06/…

@enderland haha thats brilliant

6:32 PM

wow, so there is no way to vote "off topic" anymore as a close reason? wtf.

6:48 PM

http://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/9682/the-pod-bay

were watching the tests of the proposed lunar module

0

Q: Transitioning from a BS in CIS to an MSE in Software Engineering

I'm considering an attempt to gain admittance to an MSE program in Software Engineering but I realize that most of my education may not be fully relevant. My BS is in CIS where the focus was real world application and lots of management type stuff, so there wasn't much math and I know that is goi...

7:13 PM

@enderland My problem with the just quit answers is it is like the people think that the OP doesnt know he or she can quit. And sometimes (like in India or some parts of the EU) you cant just quit with out major penalties. The OP is asking how to deal with it where they do not have to find a new job... because job hunting sucks ass more than having to see JimG's stupid answers

@Chad well, right. It's also really easy to immediately cast judgement on a situation where all you see is a single negative thing and go "you should quit"

8:03 PM

1

Q: Boss making me do inappropriate punishments at work

I have been working for this couple of investors for around 18 months. The set up is, these two people will buy small online businesses and I will run these businesses from a single office. Currently I have 4 going on 5 businesses to manage in a office on my own. Around a year ago, after I had m...

management human-resources

this is going to be a train wreck

8:20 PM

@enderland workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/13632/…

Blurg.

I hate the "Leave immediately" answers. (To them I say) I'm sure your job is a million times better and you just want to share that joy with the whole world, but no one wants to just give up without further thought. Even if that is the answer, quitting a job deserves serious and complete contemplation of the alternatives.

oh
sweet
crud

Wouldn't it be nice if we could all have little fairies on our shoulders drawing vast conclusions without giving more than a 1-sentence explanation.

-1

A: Boss making me do inappropriate punishments at work

It's not appropriate for a boss to humiliate a worker - in private or in public. And if it's at the point where you feel concerned about being at work, then it's clearly NOT OK. Tell your boss "No" next time, and mean it. If it continues, quit.

one more for the quit counter

i dont think we will ever win the war against quitting

we should just quit while we are ahead

;)

SERIOUSLY

If people are going to learn to fend for themselves it takes time for them to make the connections

me or the answer i linked to? :P

8:26 PM

we should all just quit

obviously that is the solution to everything.

it is indeed

oh i see the problem!

it's kind of like "my keys were the last place I looked"

people are taking our advice too literally, they are refusing to quit telling people to quit

I quit every job until I got the one I have now!

so clearly that is the answer.

im sure this is our equivalent of 'you should drop it and use jQuery'

8:29 PM

lol

that's a good point.

-1

A: Boss making me do inappropriate punishments at work

There are various parts of the world where employers engage in corporal punishment. American (and more broadly first world, or at least Western) customers of such companies discontinue working relationships with them when this is discovered. In short, the first world consensus is that anything o...

another one

But that answer I commented on, how did it get 31 upvotes!?

thats 2 quit answers on one question

this one has a twist

it tells them to leave town too

@NickC feel good answer, people love those

I think it's also part of "the less you say, the higher chance people will agree with it"

agreed

people dont like to read anymore

8:32 PM

And no, I don't agree that my rule of the answer being longer than the question is a bad one.

they want an answer and they want it in two words

either 'just quit' or 'dont quit'

yeah, the disconnect is that I don't think the askers want that.

is there some way we can do a user wide PSA that says 'Quit telling people to quit!'

so people aren't actually helping.

@NickC no but the voters do

8:35 PM

voters suck. This should be a dictatorship. Only my vote will count.

:)

cough

@NickC this is a HUUUUUUGE problem tbh

not just here, but with life

;)

@NickC I agree here, too, generally, especially because most of the time I care more about the "why" than the "what"

@enderland That's it, I quit life.

@enderland yeah, i can think of a load of things to do, but im more interested in why i should choose one over the other

@enderland Start with "why" -- youtube.com/watch?v=d2SEPoQEgqA

2

@RhysW Yes, you're right on, because otherwise you have gained nothing the next time you are up against an even slightly different problem.

8:38 PM

@NickC i actually have this problem irl atm

quit or don't quit?

offshore support ask us to do things for them, and they dont learn anything from it, so next time the problem deviates from their instructions they wont do it

I really understand why more seasoned SE people dislike sites like this

i want @chad back, i finally understand xD

@NickC this is a very, very good video

8:42 PM

@enderland agreed its good

@enderland Yeah, sadly these are my favorite topics :(

i might actually try applying that

@NickC Yeah, I enjoy the subject matter here a fair bit

I've learned a tooon about management and I'm not a manager :)

i like the fuzzy answers, there isnt a right and wrong like with most sites

@enderland First time I heard this guy talk was on the Entreleadership (Dave Ramsey) podcast. I also very highly recommend that podcast.

daveramsey.com/entreleadership/podcast

8:45 PM

@NickC Dave Ramsey 100% gets that idea, it's the fundamental premise to his ENTIRE financial perspective

@enderland Yeah, I love hearing him talk about how he runs his business.

@NickC well it's also true in his financial peace university

oh? perhaps i should listen in

@enderland I have only read Total Money Makeover.

@NickC I have gone through FPU and listen to him on radio a fair bit, but he really hardcore focuses on getting people 1) ANGRY or emotional towards their debt and 2) intense about it

8:47 PM

@enderland That's true, I guess I didn't even think of it that way.

that was good, one video and i feel like i agree with everything that guy has to say

:)

honestly, knowing stuff like this (and generally speaking, the content of The Workplace) makes me way too aware and knowledgeable about my office environment

I'm just re-listening to this video. It's so true. How often have you had conversations with people about which of two competing product is better. Everyone lays out all the stats and yet still no one convinces the other

because both parties are convinced on the much more fuzzy "why" that sold them on it in the first place, and it's difficult to explain that

@NickC xbox vs ps3 anyone?

8:51 PM

Yup, or apple vs windows

@RhysW You read my mind.

@enderland google vs bing

What's bing?

:)

I don't mind bing, but my ecosystem is all google, so it just works better

chrome vs IE

i use chrome so google is default for me

8:52 PM

@RhysW pretty sure IE is in all ways inferior (including the fuzzy ones) ;)

@enderland youll get there in the end just keep editing :P

@enderland That's true, but if you think about why (usually less computer literate) people use IE it's not because of the concrete details. It's because they aren't scared of it. It came with their computer and it works.

@NickC Yeah, it's interesting - most of "us" computer people are not even remotely representative of the population at large

I have converted several family members to Chrome just by telling them to trust me. And then they love it, because they have less pain. Again, no one has to tell them what's really different.

@RhysW Sounds like a good topic for a question.

(just unwinding the stack)

@NickC I spend a lot of time trying to give financial advice (mainly on reddit or other forums) - and almost always the main thing which people need is the "omg wakeup call!!!!" hit, not the knowledge

8:57 PM

@enderland so true. What I love about TMM was that it illustrated to me that what I was missing was not financial "knowledge" which I think I was already pretty good in. It was an awareness of just how important the actions are.

@enderland you never give me financial advice D:

@NickC mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/22/…

that article will change your life if you "get it"

@RhysW I've also learned, quickly, that people who are not wanting to learn about things - ESPECIALLY financial things - and generally have a very strong "woe is me, this is how my life will have to be" unless they change it

i wa sjust pulling your leg anyway :P

@enderland Reading now. I read a similar idea on Quora, a guy that was rich and didn't care about his fancy new house after about 3 weeks.

youd need millions to be able to retire early though surely, kids are especially expensive

9:09 PM

@RhysW this is FALSE!

everyone believes that, though :P

i cant see how it isnt true, what am i missing?

@RhysW you can live below your means - if I had 1M right now, I could probably retire in my 20s

but you cant always account for life being exactly planned, e.g unexpected kids suddenly mean you need a bigger house, that eats a significant portion right there

@RhysW why do you need a bigger house?

@enderland I feel particularly qualified to answer that one :)

9:12 PM

@enderland you cant fit all the kids in one room?

we recently downsized our house by over half (have two kids). We've been feeling the pain for about 6 months. I do think a certain minimum of space is needed, or you may never adapt to it.

@RhysW I guess I'm living in an area where $200k would buy me a HUGE house

e.g you have two kids that comfortably share a room, one day bam another unplanned one, you cant ram all three in one room

yes british houses are about a quater the size of aerican for the same price

regardless, there are significant differences between what we "need" and what we actually need

to be honest i would rather have a slightly larger house and kids who dont fight and argue all the time over being crammed in together :P

9:15 PM

@enderland What I love about this topic is that there are so many layers that most people don't usually consider. E.G. to your point, if you retired, do you NEED to live in [New York, LA, London] metro? Or would the midwest with a big house be just as good?

@NickC oh, trust me, I know. I plan on being able to retire by 40 ;)

My wife HATED the "boring" place we lived before we moved to a bigger city six months ago. But she just yesterday was admitting to me how her feelings have changed when you consider the tradeoffs that come with the bigger city.

@enderland Me too. Ideally... 35. :)

i have one year to meet my goal of retired at 20 :P

@NickC :-) I'm aiming for 40, just because, well, it's a nice number, but I suspect if I get any sort of raises in my life that date will be able to move earlier

of course, I will probably still work - but will not HAVE to work, which is a world of difference

Yeah -- my real goal is by 35 to be able to choose whatever work I want to.

And then I will work "at my leisure" -- I actually hope to be more profitable than ever in that condition.

9:19 PM

@NickC Yep, same. Even if I have the same job I will have a completely different perspective on why I go to work

@enderland Yeah, totally agree.

Hmmm @RhysW the person selling this keyboard lives in a sketchy place

not sure how I feel about heading up there, lol

@enderland haha thats why its that cheap no one else will go buy it :P

@RhysW lol

or he is coaxing you there on false pretenses :P

9:23 PM

right :| though I live in the Midwest, about a 0.00001% chance of that

hmm that site is tearing me in two different directions

god dammnit @enderland

@RhysW ?

youre making me agree with you ¬_¬

heh :)

right im in, that guy with the moustache combined with @NickC 's timely video to remind me to ask why has convinced me

9:30 PM

western culture (especially USA, not sure about England) is soooooo consumeristic

the mere idea of living on less than your income is practically like saying "I want to light my hair on fire"

i dont really know, i live in my own bubble

what convinced me was when he explained what you can do with that saved money

before i thought you just meant, earn X and hope its enough

hes pointed out you actually earn X, them make X earn you more money itself and live off of that

reducing your expenses has a huge multiplying factor

saving 10% of your takehome pay is 1/9 a year's expenses

saving 50% provides a full year living expenses each year

that combined wih the fact the stock market has massive appeal to me i think i might give it a try

im currently able to save 100%, closer to 99% actually

it 'feels' a little conspiricy theory but i can see the sense in it,

@RhysW I would have never considered retiring before I was 60 until I started reading that blog

theres a aprt of me that agrees with it and a part telling me its all just another hoax

9:42 PM

@enderland My plan was always to retire as early as possible, but before I started getting serious about money, I was just haphazardly getting by while I looked for ways to strike it out on my own

but I eventually realized that that would never happen without some sensible savings in the bank.

@RhysW that's because almost no one lives below their means, at all

@NickC plus it's a fun goal, especially if you have kids and a family I bet :)

@enderland that must make it difficult

but also a good goal

e.g the sooner you retire the more time you have with your kids

@enderland Yeah, I am still in the stressful "get out of debt" stage, and I certainly haven't been "gazelle intense". But when I've budgeted properly, it's really nice to go "wow, this money is actually saved, it's really mine, not possibly that one bill or this other one."

we should convene in a decade and see how things have gone, will be quite interesting we have a brilliant case study, each of us is in a very different position in life to eachother

@enderland Found the Quora answer - quora.com/Wealthy-People-and-Families/…

"Along the way, the most interesting phenomenon has been "adaptation". Moving from a $300K apartment to a $1m one barely made a difference after the first month."

9:49 PM

now that i think about it its really humourous, when you ask how to get rich everyone talks of promotions and pay rises, no one ever seems to think of just spending less

10:30 PM

@RhysW :)

@enderland i assume you are somewhere between me and nick c that is :P

@RhysW Yep, mid twenties

Currently typing this on an Apple usb-mini keyboard

WIN! :D

you went and got it? :D

yeah. I've been eyeing them for a long time

they are really expensive now - $75-100

survived the sketchy area then

10:32 PM

yah. For $50 I consider this a win

@NickC Alrighty you made me run the gauntlet to register on Quora :)

some of those answers are interesting to that question

lots of self made millionaires seem to use that site

@enderland Quora is the worst for registration! Reminds me of ExpertSexchange. However, the content is good so I figured most people, like myself, have just given in by now and linked with Facebook or something.

@NickC I refuse to link things to facebook

it's annoying to me because registering adds almost zero value to me. The notifications are never relevant, I can't upvote a question without all my "followers" (auto-followed through their own FB registeration) seeing it, etc.

@enderland Probably a good policy... like I said I've just given in.

@enderland glad im not the only one

i use googleID for my id's

10:41 PM

the only exception so far has been spotify :'(

@enderland You can't register separately anymore?

Haha, I registered back when they had standalone. I have refused to connect to FB still :)

They won't get me!

how many millionaires use Quora!?!

no, but I guess spotify is one of the few services I see value in the link

14 answers to that... xD

@enderland Oh really? What do you use it for?

10:44 PM

@NickC I like being able to easily share music with people

@NickC Have you heard him say that he doesn't believe in paying for his employees' health insurance? [FWIW: I'm not disagreeing with him. Just noting his stance.]

@NickC Which "baby step" are you on? ;)

@NickC Yup. Been there many times. And I'm sure I'll be back again.

@JimG. No, I haven't heard that. I'm not saying I agree with everything (in fact, there are a lot of cases where I think he's overstating to make a point, or a bit fanatical). However, I feel like his thought processes inspire me to think about the issues in a better way.

@NickC Chrome is the bomb. Not sure why anyone would want something else.

@NickC Ha! Good luck, man!

@NickC Yup. Me too. I agree with most things he says.

@JimG. A couple years ago I decided that if I did set a goal I was more likely to think about it more often than if I kept saying "in a few years I'll get there..."

@NickC FWIW: At the rate I'm saving, I'll be able to retire at 64.

10:52 PM

The first thing i do if i get rich, is absolutely nothing differently

@NickC But that's actually better than many of my friends, who aren't even saving. [Seriously.]

@JimG. im the black sheep of my friends circle too

@JimG. You sound facetious...

@NickC D: its late, dont make me google words :P

@NickC I'm more than partially convinced most people's financial plan is "hope you wake up one day with money magically"

10:55 PM

@enderland Haha, so true. Even when faced with the facts many people don't want to admit the numbers are real

@NickC I've given up talking about anything financial with people I don't know well (and even some of them)

some just cannot FATHOM spending less than they make!

@enderland This is true even inside my family. I love Dave Ramsey's thought on talking to your parents about money. Once someone has wiped your butt, they don't want your advice on anything!

@enderland well youve convinced at least one person xD

@NickC yeah. I'm trying to figure out how to get my parents to care about, well, having some sort of documents which give me an idea what their financial situatino is

since I have literally no clue about any of their financial stuff

@enderland Do they seem like they need help?

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