The Water Cooler - 2013-08-30

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12:43 AM

So many of the questions tagged software-industry are really really really bad... If anyone has time, it would be nice to edit/close them. There are over 200 of the things, and some of them are definitely from the early days when questions like this were highly upvoted:

19

Q: Do Software Engineer contractors really make more than salaried engineers?

I've heard many people mention that as a contract software engineer you can make 20-30% more per hour than if you were salaried - because of no benefits. However, when I look at contractor rates on sites like glassdoor.com for senior positions, I see very low hourly rates. So my question is, for ...

software-industry salary

(there is great info in that post about the difference between contractors and salaried workers, which is awesome and should be kept, but the question could use some work)

3 hours later…

3:18 AM

@jmac He was with alpine but they just shut down all of their american operations. Now he is a buyer for a steel company

3:38 AM

hullo

Hello Teemu

@Chad Sorry to hear that -- steel buyer sounds interesting too. There are too many fun-sounding jobs in this world, and not enough time to do them all.

4:02 AM

@TeemuLeisti anything we can help you with? (no need to come for a specific reason, just want to make sure to know if there is something specific you need!)

3 hours later…

7:24 AM

@RhysW I might go there for a cheeky afternoon pint...its Friday so I only half to work a half day ;)

7:41 AM

@jmac i think you might be right actually, either way, it was on one question, wasnt clear and we have a tag for negotiation anyway!

@Chad i hope you dont mind but im going to make that meta question about removing the etiquette tag today if you dont beat me to it, just so we get the ball rolling

@jmac will have a look today if you want, also those are some good meta posts, ill throw my views in the form of an answer at some point today.

8:46 AM

0

Q: Etiquette and Professionalism

In tag-clarification-ethics-vs-etiquette-vs-professionalism we discussed the similarities between Etiquette and Professionalism. Jim made the point that etiquette and professionalism could be defined as: Etiquette: conventional requirements as to social behavior; proprieties of conduct ...

discussion tags

i hope you guys dont mind reading, its a long one!

Hi folks,

I would like to setup a new workstation for backend development and would be glad to hear some opinions on the device selection.

I currently work with a Macbook pro retina 15". The development will be mostly for linux systems and maybe some mobile.

The software I use is mainly terminal, vim for python development, eclipse and maybe some XCode. Also, automated scripts, remote server connections etc.

Do you believe one or two thunderbolt displays will increase my productivity? Any suggestions for external mouse? I really like the scrolling and gestures on the magic mouse, but it…

@Vame whilst some of us at the workplace are also developers you will probably have more luck asking this in the chat of programmers.stackexchange.com as everyone these is a programmer and you are more likely to find someone who has already been through your exact situation!

@RhysW thanks man, I will have a look over there

@Vame no worries, hope you get an answer to your question

9:27 AM

right, my hands are now melting, and meta is swarmed by my opinions, seems like a productive day in my eyes!

@jmac thanks, but no, i was just looking around.

@RhysW I will keep approving those edits until I hit my 20 max

@MichaelGrubey much appreciated, i did about 30 yesterday, plan to smash out a few more today until we have some well defined tags. some of them are hard to define, but its at least pointing out lots of ones that need work!

9:43 AM

@RhysW No problem. Should be on till about lunch time. Any you need a hand with let me know and I shall try help

If you get a chance there are lots of interesting new meta posts by jmac that might be worth giving a look

That does look interesting but I think its more of a weekend read for me...dont have the time today to read and contribute anything interesting.

10:01 AM

@MichaelGrubey yeah they are a bit lengthy! not that i can talk really. either way i hope people take an interest, it would be nice to have a solid foundation of tags to build the questions on

@RhysW Might try start using it on my phone and have some bedtime reading. It is interresting and its a good clean up thats for sure. Stiill our questions per day is rather low.

@MichaelGrubey im not too bothered about our questions per day, im more bothered by the recent quality decline, id rather have 5 high quality than 100 low quality anyday

@RhysW Agreed completly. What is a worry though can a Beta site be shut down for being open to long and not meeting the standards?

@MichaelGrubey There is no risk of that happening to workplace as far as i can tell, i remember reading somewhere that a site is given plenty of warning before that happens

Beleive it or not things are starting to get better for the workplace, we have a slightly larger team of people willing to improve the site, we are seeing more interaction between users and a higher push for quality than there was when i originally joined. I dont think it will be much longer before we are free

10:49 AM

@RhysW I hope not as this is a really good site and is actually really helpful to people. I read a blog about Beta sites and being closed but I didnt see anything about it on there. I do see that and its good. More people getting involved in making everything better and one. Sorry for the delayed response this support stuff is keeping me busy.

@MichaelGrubey no worries, im not very busy but i expect that others might be. It is a good site, and our audience seems to be growing, if we can get a good amount of people going then the snowball effect should kick in, which its why its important for us to get all this maintenence stuff out of the way first!

2 hours later…

12:34 PM

@RhysW Agreed.

1:08 PM

@RhysW indeed!

1:35 PM

@enderland i dont remember a lot from when i first joined but i remember the group being smaller! unless im mis remembering

1:48 PM

@RhysW RhysW For TWP President... well worded and reasoned post you are my hero

@MichaelGrubey What sites are being closed?

@Chad i think a couple didnt make the cut recently, but i might be misremembering that as some long overdue A51 proposals that got closed down

@Chad thankyou!

I am confused as to why workplace.stackexchange.com/q/11231/16 is at the top of the active questions

@Chad recent delete votes perhaps? not sure if those bring it to people attention or not

2:18 PM

@RhysW hopefully not

Im not a fan of the deletion interface, i would much prefer a deletion queue in the review interface, am i alone in this and just ranting away to empty air? :P

2:31 PM

we have 220 tags currently, that seems a little high

2

2:44 PM

4 hot questions in 4 days.

This is getting silly.

@jmac and I've been gone all of it!?

Self-fulfilling prophecy. People see the first, vote on more. More votes means more hotness. More visitors = more voting = more answers = more hot questions.

@jmac welcome back, and yeah i noticed a lot more of our questions in the ticker recently

May the weekend save us.

May I also express my dissatisfaction with people downvoting my answer here?

3

A: How should you handle a superior blaming you for a mistake that was actually theirs?

Executive Summary Make sure you're not the scapegoat: Try not to fail If you do fail then fail with a smile Be nice Nobody Gets Blamed for Succeeding Find a way to make whatever you are assigned work out. If it works, he can't blame you for its failure, and it won't have been a mistake. Po...

its good in one way, lots more traffic and users, but bad in another, lots more traffic and users, who dont know our guidelines

2:46 PM

+5/-2. The OP even said it was his favorite answer.

I know it would be damaging if I played populist for a week, giving everyone answers they want to hear. But there is that part of my soul that says it's the best approach.

@jmac haters gonna hate

Time to geek out to some aram

http://workplace.stackexchange.com/a/14167/5305

I sort of nudged this user in the right direction, sort of, but i feel like i would be bullying if i gave them another suggestion, anyone want to help out?

People who are willing to improve are my favourite kind of people

3:17 PM

@RhysW I did a sample edit and suggested that the OP expand the next 2 lines herself. I would have fixed the whole thing but i did not want to put more words in her mouth on the what you should do part.

@jmac We have people who do not like the idea of actually doing what they are told and only want to read that they should say no and rebel...

@Chad Thanks chad its much appreciated, giving new users a taste of the community effort should help us retain a few more users

3:37 PM

the aram did not work out well. saddened.

@Chad I don't like doing what I am told. 10 years in Japan has taught me how to hold my tongue. It is a good skill.

(well, mostly hold my tongue)

@enderland I think "hate" is too strong a word. "Ambivalent toward unexpected answers which just don't sit right" may be more accurate.

@jmac I am paying you you should do what I tell you. If you are your own boss then its your business you can do what you want. But that seems to be out of fashion right now

I think it's too in fashion on the management end, and too out of fashion on the worker end.

Some of the questions on TW, especially regarding expectations of the workplace, boggle my mind. I believe in worker's rights, in the sense that in exchange for effort, you should receive fair pay and not be screwed. I also believe in the obligation of an employer to treat employees fairly. The gap between the two seems massive at times.

@Chad from what i have seen, most of the recent generations seem to think they can pick and choose what they do, even at entry level, not for moral reasons or monetary reasons, but just because 'i dont want to' it blows my mind sometimes

recent generations? That sounds like old man talk @Rhys!

@RhysW And how dare we make them take responsibiity for their actions or decisions

3:42 PM

@jmac thats why i said recent instead of younger, i picked my words carefully!

I think it has nothing to do with generations at all. I think that in a large part, people who are in their 40s had the same attitude, they just displayed it differently

@Chad i really blame school systems for this the 'everyone is a winner' thing teaches everyone that they will get rewarded regardless of how hard they try, so no one tries anymore

@jmac less people on smoke breaks and drinking sullenly in bars, more outright refusals and screaming matches :P

the concept of hard work is certainly not the same now as it likely was in the 80's and 90's. The computer (and telecommunications in general) sped up the pace of business incredibly, and more is expected to be done in less time without accounting for the increase in mental overhead it creates.

You should come to Japan.

Tons of people on smoke breaks / smoking sullenly in bars.

maybe its just because i dont frequent bars nor do i smoke that i dont notice these groups

I don't think that it's an issue of generation, and that somehow we can pass the buck by saying, "In my day". I think it is a matter of socio-economic standing (young people are coming out of school with more debt and less security), and general 'progress' in the sense of how much work is expected to be done.

don't...frequent...bars? How do you survive?!

For instance, in Japan, more and more young people are refusing to get a 'respectable' job. You get paid peanuts for the privilege of a top-tier company that evaluates you not based on ability, but based on appearance of hard work.

And a lot of people (for good reason) won't have it and don't participate.

At the same time, while the average salary of someone in the manufacturing sector has been steadily increasing, the salary for younger workers has stayed stagnant or decreased for about 15 years (this is similar in other sectors, I just looked at manufacturing recently)

(manufacturing != factory worker, even sales, marketing, accounting, etc. -- anything involving the process of creating a product)

Why would you have the same work ethic of someone whose salary has been steadily increasing, with massive bonuses when they were young and Japan went through a bubble? Why would you work yourself to death for a company that tells you, "Just wait 20 years" when the future is uncertain for the next 5?

Blaming the workers isn't right (in large companies at least). But in smaller companies, I think the reverse may be true. Fewer resources to get great candidates means a smaller pool and a greater risk of catastrophic failure if you get the wrong one.

3:50 PM

@jmac i disagree, im part of that generation being 19 myself, a lot of people are just spoilt and dont understand that they cant have whatever they want whenever they want it,

@jmac Agreed, there is a lot of work that companies can do to mitigate some of the problems, but there is also a lot of work that young people (in some cultures) can do to mitigate the issues too

I was spoiled. Our parents were spoiled. That is a cop out and ignores serious fundamental political and socio-economic issues that are apparent across societies. People do not become demotivated because they get what they want.

maybe we are at a disagreement because we observe two vastly different cultures?

I don't think it's limited to a single culture -- the UK is not that different from Japan and the US. Western culture in general seems to suffer from a similar disease

@jmac there is being spoilt, the act of getting lots of things and having a good life and being treated to lots of expensive things, then there is being spoilt in which the person expects the world to be handed to them on a silver platter, im using the second one more than anything

What people want is shifting, and I think society hasn't shifted fast enough. Those of us who want to work hard want to work hard for something -- be it Dan Pink-esque "Autonomy, Mastery, Purpose" or a steady paycheck for an employer who gives minimal hassle.

3:53 PM

true, what people want has changed, but how they have to get it is still slow to catch up

On the same time we have employers feeling the economic crunch and more likely to see these necessities for those who want to work hard as perks they should earn. This creates a mexican standoff.

I don't think 'expensive' is where the issue is. I think that the point is that entertainment and subsistence is currently incredibly cheap. You can keep yourself distracted very well if you have access to a 'middle class' upbringing.

free to play games (league of legends: 32 million monthly players), free video, etc. constant internet everywhere means constant connectivity to your friends (I remember having a modem and one phone line)

true, but i dont really like that, i was spoilt in the sense that all of my childhood was spent doing things with my parents and friends rather than in technology (for the most part)

@jmac hah, the days of dialup did wonders for peoples patience i swear

My point isn't that technology is bad, it's that technology is cheap, and as people become busier to make a living, they rely on technology as a crutch because they have no choice.

@jmac definately, maybe IM still a bit behind myself, and havent really noticed the vast changes from my childhood to even the generation just behind me

And people call that "spoiled", but the person who can play in a park with their friends all day only to come home and eat with their parents probably has significantly more income now, because it's cheaper to sit them in front of the PC.

3:57 PM

thats very true

but its also the seed for many more problems

It's like the potentially-bogus Agatha Christie quote, "I never thought I would be rich enough to own an automobile, or poor enough not to be able to afford a servant"

yes, it is a problem, but not a problem of parenting or a generation, it is the problem of society. And I think everyone is hemming and hawing and passing the buck because it's easier to avoid a problem than to address it

The questions, "What can I do?" are ones that fall by the wayside when people feel the pinch, and it makes the situation worse.

So rather than attempt to fix the problem, it's easier to blame kids for being lazy. Or employers for being greedy. Or parents for being absent. Or technology being the new babysitter.

Bollocks I say!

what do you say the problem is? if none of them?

dont take that sarcastically, i meant that as genuine interest

I think the underlying problem is that we are becoming more divided as societies.

Something that hasn't changed is that we all have neighbors.

Do you know your neighbors' names?

ah so the problem is not that we are different, but that people dont accept we arent all the same?

@jmac hmm good point, i know one side

I know everyone on my floor (I live in an apartment).

They are all wonderful people

we go out to dinner, know each others' kids, and generally are friendly.

4:01 PM

but then again i move on average every 2 years, im 19 and have lived in 10 different houses

We are a community -- we discuss what happens in our apartment, in our community, and in our lives.

more if you count stints in hotels

And that is what we need more of.

we need more communities?

I have lived here for 2 years.

4:02 PM

the thign is these communities do exist, but they exist online rather than physically, EVERYONE is your neighbour

Not more, but stronger communities.

We need people who don't make excuses and say hi to their neighbor.

Online communities are great, but they are largely voluntary.

We tend to gravitate toward communities that think like us

and end up thinking more like the communities we join

so then less diversity

which causes issues with what people know and are willing to accept

I would be surprised if online communities are more diverse in thought

(I could be wrong)

you dont need to accept A, if you can choose to be with only B

thats a good point

Exactly.

4:03 PM

sorry my last 4 were me thinking aloud about my own point of online communities

no problem. I'm just ranting it'd seem.

no worries, they are valid points,

we seem to have derailed the chat thread magnificently but theres some interesting points i might think on

Yeah, sorry about that everyone!

heh, we seem to have taken over meta aswell with all out posts

Ah, and an FYI to save you time -- if you post the link to a question, it will automatically resolve to the title

so no need to format as links

4:11 PM

@jmac it does? i thought it didnt oops

Yeah, I tried it today and it worked. Made things a lot easier.

maybe thats new, i dont remember it doing that

I also taught myself javascript to parse the API for tag lists.

It is much easier than excel.

Thank you jsfiddle for always being there for me.

anyway, off to another aram, and then bed. it's 1am.

very nice, most definately! ill be looking at your big main question this weekend / this evening, a good set of tags should really help us

haha cya @jmac !

As a parting gift:

6

Q: Can meta-style 'required tags' be implemented on non-meta sites?

Disclaimer: This is a support question solely to see if such a feature exists, and not a feature-request to ask for its implementation. If possible, I'd love it if we could focus on whether the feature exists rather than whether it would be useful or not. On meta, each question must be tagge...

support tags required-tags

4:34 PM

@jmac Have you read Robert Putnam's 'Bowling Alone'?

4:44 PM

@JimG. nope, but I'll add it to my reading list

@jmac It's exactly what you're talking about. // I just read your conversation, and it was as if you were taking quotes from the book; which is equally parts ironic and impressive.

-1

Q: Is a programmer's job any better than bonded labour?

This is in context to India, I don't know how the situation fares in other countries. From what I see at my workplace and what I hear from other workplaces from friends, I feel that the work done by a coder or developer is gradually being commoditized. Now, I know that a new project from scratch...

work-environment work

LOL what is this

5:00 PM

@JimG. brilliant minds? or insanity shares many things? I don't know, but I haven't read the book.

@enderland closed 笑

This one is quality too:

-2

Q: Is it unethical for me to quit my job, right before a project they need me for, and then offer to work for them as a contractor?

This is just like this question and this question, but I'm adding some more context to it. Here's my situation: I just found out I'm to immediately start working on this old project I really hate working on. I think I'm willing to quit rather than work on this project I feel they need me to wo...

salary contracts ethics

The hot questions...

5:19 PM

Ugh, I only now have half the close votes to be the first person to get the gold badge for reviews after being on this site for about a year now lol

Why doesn't voting on a question regularly count towards the close votes count?

I'm not even sure how they end of for review in the first place

5:54 PM

@PaulBrown nice, i always think its odd you dont get a point towards it for being the first to suggest the close, having to do that initial review and finding of unworthy questions requires more effort and is deserving of reward

6:30 PM

@PaulBrown hah. going to be a while for me, only 97 so far :P

6:42 PM

@jmac hah the question I recently answered is on that list, though low? lol

3 hours later…

9:15 PM

@jmac youre still in this room!?! do you not sleep atall? :P

10:02 PM

0

Q: Applying for jobs in other states

I am a new immigrant with technical background and I am currently looking for a job as my first job in US. Problem is I currently live in a small town in the South, where jobs in my field are scarce. But I am willing to move to anywhere in the country. My question is, what is the process of gett...

interviewing job-offer

^This question is about getting a job not what job to take

4

Q: Is it okay to ask my manager if I'm about to get fired?

There has been a rumor lately about a massive round of layoffs at my company. Some other company in a neighbor city has just opened a spot for a programmer and I could apply there. If I do though, my current company is definitely going to hear about it, and I don't want them to think I'm looking...

professionalism job-offer layoff

Didnt we have a question alot like this before?

10:24 PM

@Chad i dont remember seeing one

10:35 PM

@RhysW youre still in this room!?! do you not sleep atall? :P

@enderland who has time to sleep when meta posts and tags need to be written! :P

hahahaa

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Aug '1330

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