The Water Cooler - 2013-04-12

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11:04 AM

wow just went on a downvoting/closevoting spree :(

1 hour later…

12:30 PM

-1

Q: What is it called when an hourly worker is paid at a different rate for doing different things?

What is it called when a worker is paid a different hourly-rate for doing different things during their shift?

salary terminology

Any thoughts on why this is/isn't a good question?

12:49 PM

@Jim low effort (OP don't even mention whether they attempted to search web and what results they had). Maybe worth a DV or two for that. Other than that, question looks OK to me

1:05 PM

@gnat based on the comments, it seems the author wants an answer in order to do reasearch

my thought, at least, is that it would be more appropriate for chat (assuming a search failed to yield a good result, which would depend on search terms used)

I'm inclined to agree with you; it's not a good question, but I'm not sure it warrants closure

1:17 PM

-5

Q: How to deal with colleagues with big attitude/ego

I routinely have to deal some people with big attitude at my workplace. They think that they are so superior a Homosapien that they will not reply to my chat messages or mails. I have to get some work done from them or need something from them. So I can't just ignore such guys. What is the best ...

communication colleagues telecommute

am I missing something or is this guy likely part of the problem himself?

@enderland I'm sure that's a dupe. But probably of a closed or deleted question

"my coworkers are aholes help me I'm so much better than them but write as if i'm one of them" is how I read that

"Why is everyone an asshole except me"

would a question about, "how do I deal with a desk and work environment which promotes distractions?" be on topic here?

my office environment is like an ADD person's nightmare

user image

It's not gonna be a good day is it?

@enderland That sounds familiar actually, we've had a few arrangement questions

1:34 PM

@Jim I did not vote to close, but is asking for a standard term for something where no standard term exists.

@enderland If you have a focused target yes. If it is a what should I do quesiton then I will hunt you down

@Chad There were no close votes. Just flags and a mod close/reopen

I've actually linked to it from this question

9

Q: Post history not accessible without edits

Normally, the close/lock/delete history of a post (including the reversal of such actions) is easily accessible along with the posts revisions. However, if the post has not been edited (aside from closures/lockings/deletions), there is no link to the revision history, and no indication (aside fr...

feature-request closed-questions revisions-list

If there isn't really an answer, we can't really answer it

that doesn't make it a bad question, just a question that we can't answer

2:02 PM

@BenBrocka not arrangment, I don't have control on that

@Jim There are 3 off topic votes but I do not know that it is off topic... other than that the downvotes are what we should have for poor questions like that.

-5

Q: Should I go for an MBA when I already have a Masters in another field?

I already have a masters degree in computer science. I am currently working in the industry as a software engineer. I want to move towards management in five or six year. Is it beneficial to go for an MBA degree when I already have a Masters in computer science? I want to become a project manager...

job-search job-change masters

I think that one could be edited to be on topic and a good question

2

If we ask what the benefits of an MBA are to a Carreer in IT.

I wish I had time to edit stuff now

2:40 PM

@Jim interesting idea just popped in comments

It just occurred to me that this might possibly be a better question for english.SE. — acolyte 2 mins ago

Agreed

3:09 PM

@Chad

Are you asking "what are the benefits of receiving an MBA when I have a masters already?" This would be a great question - but specific career advice for your personal situation is off topic (see the FAQ). Feel free to edit if so - I personally have interest in this as well :) — enderland 10 mins ago

3:24 PM

I converted a question from please judge others to a constructive what is the best way to accomplish x question. How can I make it wiki so that the original poster does not get rep from my work :p

@Chad didn't see the ":p" at the end of that; thought you were serious

3:42 PM

@Chad I'll upvote it before it happens just for you!

-5

Q: How to deal with "unresponsive" colleagues?

I routinely have to deal with a situation when some of my colleagues do not reply to my chat messages or emails. I can't just ignore them, because I get tasks from them and occasionally need to consult with them. How should I deal with this situation?

communication colleagues telecommute

good edit imo

@enderland click the red X a few times

what's the "red x"

@Jim well if i was serious theoretically...

0

Q: How can I gain the attention of a busy coworker

A coworker is extremely busy and I need to discuss an important, but non-urgent matter with them. They haven't responded to my last few emails and they spend most of their workday in meetings. What is the most effective and appropriate way to get their attention? I've considered a Post-It note ...

professionalism communication

Actually I could just vote to close that question as a dupe of the one enderland linked...

except that I have already voted to close it once

I would flag it but....

@Chad same

@Jim we have 2 motions to reclose workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/10909/… as a Dupe of workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/11044/…

3:57 PM

there are no votes to close, and that other question is already closed (granted with 4 reopen votes)

@Jim Because we have already voted to close it once....

it got edited and reopened then we found it was a dupe

I'd say the dupe should go the other way

but...

the other one is a better question

better how?

of course we are only a few edits away from wiki status... i am sure it can be improved further

it is a more generalized question. that does not have legacy answers that do not fit

10 edits for wiki status right?

4:02 PM

i think so

I don't think we need to make another 5 edits though

And yes, some of the answers are based on the earlier version

But I really think it needs that improvement

but they are good answers

whereas the other has only 1 answer

and its answer should really be read by the op of the other question...

which is more about making people like and respect you than getting a response from someone ignoring you/too busy

I really suspect that the reason the OP Is being ignored is respect

4:27 PM

@Chad wiki status triggered by 10 edits can be revoked (if justified appropriately). Just flag for mod attention and explain why you think it's unfair BTDTGTTS

I am pretty sure that he is in flag helldeath with me

@Jim per my recollection of related MSO discussions, current party line is dupe direction is left at discretion of voters; it's not required to close later in favor of earlier...

possible duplicate of How to deal with "unresponsive" colleagues? — gnat 1 min ago

@Chad for unfair CWs, feel free to ping me in chat - I'll flag it for you

4:51 PM

@gnat lol i am the one wanting to make it CW

5:06 PM

I wish deleting your comment wasn't a "vote"

it's stupid to have to wait 5 seconds when you start deleting your obsolete comments

@enderland flagging is a vote too, it's dumb

@BenBrocka yeah but at least there is SOME reason which kinda makes sense

"make sure you read the comments you are flagging"

@Chad oh that ":p" Jim didn't notice. No I won't flag that for you. I just like it too much when OP sees how they can gain rep through edits, so that next time they could do it themselves, without bothering us editors :)

Question about this question...

1

Q: How can I gain the attention of a busy coworker?

A coworker is extremely busy and I need to discuss an important, but non-urgent matter with them. They haven't responded to my last few emails and they spend most of their workday in meetings. What is the most effective and appropriate way to get their attention? I've considered a Post-It note ...

professionalism communication

Why was that edit done? It seems like it changes the question entirely

I feel like responding "I'm busy"

5:16 PM

I'd like to roll back the edit, but don't want to do it without first checking with @Chad about the reason behind the edit

@Rachel what edit?

Because the original question did not belong on the site

So I made it a constructive question

@Chad This one: workplace.stackexchange.com/revisions/10909/2

It was asking specifically about using post-it notes to leave notes when someone is busy

and Kate's answer was a great one for it

Yes or No questions are not good

But the edit you made changed the question entirely

@Chad Yes/No questions are great if they include why/why not

I have no problem with the rollback so long as all the reopen votes are rolled back as well

5:18 PM

@Chad Well it had 4 reopen votes, because I cast the 4th one prior to your revision

fine so long as the question is reclosed I do not have a problem with the roll back you can all go back and cast your reopen vots

@Chad You know just as well as I do that reopen votes cannot be re-cast

reopen can close can not

@Chad What was your objection to the original question? Perhaps we can find some middle ground

@Chad Unless that was changed recently, no reopen votes cannot be recast, even if they were not actually used to reopen the question

It was not constructive. It was a bad question iwith -4

5:20 PM

@Chad Ok, what was not constructive about it?

I updated it it is not positive and a constructive quesiton

I quit

(Also, it had a score of 1 when I cast the 4th reopen vote, before your edit)

@Rachel it WAS a "is this a good idea?" question

@enderland Is that not OK to ask?

@Rachel I guess it's not explicitly against the FAQ

5:23 PM

I've seen good questions which go "I'm considering doing X to solve Y problem. Is this OK/Professional?" or "What else should I consider" and I thought it was OK to ask stuff like that

I want to ask "what is a fresher"

lol

since that term gets used a toooooon here and all I can guess is it's a young'in in other parts of the world

@enderland :) It just means "I've never done this before"

is it?

"I am a fresher and into this situation first time."

it seems more like "I'm a junior employee" rather than that

@enderland Yeah I can understand the context (I'm a freshman (freshy) at school, I need a refresher (fresher), etc ) but not enough to give an exact definition without looking it up

But anyways, back to the question about post-its... can someone explain to me why it was considered not-constructive so I can try to find an edit that would prevent it from getting re-closed again that doesn't change the question entirely?

@enderland I have a doubt about a fresher, how do I do the needful?

5:31 PM

@BenBrocka what is this i dont even

@BenBrocka I'm lost too :)

in unrelated news. going to buy a digital piano tonight I think

@enderland mishmash of indianisms from SO

#noonecares :)

@Rachel 1) it was an ettiquete question we deal with professionalism and workplace stuff not ettiquete. 2) It was a yes or no question that was very localized. 3) it was not why should i do it or not it was an I want to do it but got in trouble for it tell me I was right question

I personally am all for all the edits It can handle 4 more at least...

then i could care less what happens to that question

had I looked a little closer I just keep my hands off of it I realized the true problem after I tried to save the question.

5:41 PM

hey sweet Stack Exchange now shows +1 rep when you DV an answer which gets deleted, woooo

@Chad I see you've re-applied your edit, but don't want to get into an edit war with you over this. I've flagged the post for a moderator to take a look at, as I still strongly feel it changes the question too much and makes it a duplicate of another question which does not address the original question asked

There it is cleaned up and on topic and all the other crap gone

I'd be happy to try and work with you to find an edit that meets your version of appropriate for the site, while not changing the question so dramatically. Just ping me if you want to.

and back where it was

but not off topic it asks about being professional and is not to localized

Edit all you want to make it prettier but please do not ask about ettiquette we deal with professionalism not ettiquette

@Chad I'm fine with changing "appropriate" to "professional" :)

Although I really would prefer to keep the additional information in there if possible

5:45 PM

That is my biggest pet peeve... we were supposed to ban ettiquette tag!

(person is busy and not at their desk most of the day, not responding to emails, and the matter is important but not urgent)

What value does the added info add to the question?

@Chad It explains the situation a bit better. For example, if the person were at their desk most of the day then post-its definitely would seem weird

How is that any different from someone I need to get a hold of that is not at there desk whn I go by?

the answer that is

@Chad Well usually to contact someone you try phone, email, or stopping by first. Post-its seem like a last resort

5:47 PM

The details are not important to the answer. It is either professional or not. If there are times it is professional then the answer should cover then

And the bullet points explained that those options were not available or not working

I do not have a problemif you want to edit the question to qualify after you have tried contacting using email and the phone

@Chad Ok :)

I still think it is either professional to leave them or not(NOT imho)

qualified or otherwise

@Chad I also think it's OK to leave them, however think there are certain circumstances where it would be a bad idea, such as like Kate's answer pointed out

5:51 PM

See is it ok to leave them is a different question than is it professional

is it ok is off topic

it is not professional

I would vote to reopen the question you edited if it was rolled back to the revision before

What should I do questions are bad

@Chad You mean this one?

0

Q: What should I do when I've been verbally told I would get an offer letter, but still haven't gotten one after 3 weeks?

I live in Europe and have had some interviews with a very big MNC based in Belgium. They said they will give me an offer letter in a few days, however I am still waiting for it. The date that they said was about 3 weeks ago. The last I've heard from them was they said they are managing the admi...

software-industry hiring-process job-offer

yes

I was trying to figure out an alternative wording for "What should I do", but I couldn't think of any

The title needs cleaned up but the question it was asking was good

The original title was "Replying to job offers", which I didn't think was very descriptive

5:57 PM

Actually it is just a what should i do question which is off topic before too nm

@Chad Well OP is waiting to hear back from the company he wants to work for so he knows if he should accept another job or not, and the company hasn't been very responsive. I'm not sure the exact question you could ask other than "What should I do to get this outcome in this specific situation?", which I think is OK

"Here's my situation, what should I do" is very different from "Here's my situation, what should I do to reach this specific objective". The first is more like Dear Abby, while the 2nd is a valid question for us

Can that question of Jim g's be changed to at least ask for better options than the postit note?

@Chad Why?

He's asking specifically about the usage of a post-it note on a monitor as a means of communication

I am with Yannis, I actually reported someone to HR once for puting sticky notes on my stiff

granted they presisted after they were told to stop several times

Yeah, I'm sure I'd get annoyed if I got a lot of them on my monitor too

6:03 PM

Because it is a yes or no question about something that is offensive to some people(like me and yannis at least)

Especially if they were old and left residue on my monitor

giving another alterative make sthe question more constructive

@Chad Perhaps it should then ask something about what to consider when deciding if you should use a post-it on someone's monitor as a means of communication then?

That question assuemes it is ever always ok to do that... I do not think it is

@Chad Which is why you need a yes/no question first :)

6:05 PM

providing alternatives that are better than a postit on the desk is constructive

Also, I don't think post-its are unprofessional and wouldn't mind the occasional one myself. I just wouldn't like a lot of them.

If you need me email me if I do not get back to you there is probably a reason. If it is a problem then escalate teh issue

@Chad So put a comment linking to the related question about how to deal with unresponsive coworkers

that is the professional way to handle it

@Chad Not everyone is very responsive to email, and some people get so much its easy to miss something that could be important

6:07 PM

That is why you should ask about alternatives

to leaving a postit note.

@Chad But then you'd get an answer about what to do instead of a post-it not, not one about the use of a post-it note

If you enter a cube and there are no postit notes visible. Adding the first one is a bad idea

you still get the yes/no of the postit note. As well as other things you can consider

Do you see any problems with the question as it stands now?

yes it is a yes or no question that is too localized

@Chad If it said "why/why not" instead of implying it, would you be OK with it?

6:12 PM

No

if you ask for additional options then it would be

@Chad well that is not what is being asked, and that would steer the answers in a direction that is probably not wanted

So I disagree with making that change

Because JimG just wants to be right that it is wrong for his coworker to leave a postit note on his moniter

@Chad Ummm where did you see that?

you guys are on the same side >.>

:)

6:36 PM

-2

Q: How would an MBA benefit my Career in IT

I already have a masters degree in computer science. I am currently working in the industry as a software engineer, but I want to move towards management. Is it beneficial to go for an MBA degree when I already have a Masters in computer science? How would an MBA help me advance my career toward...

job-search job-change masters

Nice edits @Chad

@enderland with the exception that I am not asking strawman questions to inflate my ego.

well, neither is @Rachel ;)

(I won't say what I think about the original question...)

@enderland yeah I would cut the question some slack if it were not a strawman

Yeah I never know what to think in situations like that

someone flag that question for reopening

6:42 PM

@Chad I'm a bit confused, did I miss something?

@Rachel The question we are arguing about is a strawman intended only to make the poster feel superior by having the interweb hordes say yes you are right it is a horrible thing to do. And it is funny that the person trying to keep it most close to the original strawman disagrees with him. I really hope you post an answer saying it is ok :p

@Chad I'm not sure where you got that idea from, however regardless I don't see how a user's motives matter in the case of posting a decent question for the site which got a great answer.

The question is fine. It's one that is shared by other members of the workplace. It has a great answer. Why do you hate it so much? Do you just want it closed because you don't like the reason it was posted, or the user that posted it?

@Rachel haters gonna hate?

@Rachel no the question sucks as asked

@Rachel I do not want it closed either. I want it to be a good quesiton

@Chad I think it is a good question right now

6:49 PM

@Rachel it is not constructive right now

It addresses one specific form of communication within an office. It doesn't need to be a question that requires an essay to be considered "good"

No it needs to solve an actual problem not just validate someones ego

44

Q: Deleting a comment (mine) shouldn't count as a comment vote

I had a old question that I revisited in order to link it in a new answer. I noticed that in the comments Steven A Lowe had a funny comment that I -- at the time -- had responded to with "why can't I upvote comments?" Well, of course, now I can. So, I voted Steven's comment up then went to dele...

bug status-bydesign comments voting

I want to post this question but it hasn't been really touched in 3 years

@Chad Guess I'll just agree to disagree with you then, because I don't think we'll ever see eye-to-eye on that :)

@enderland Usually I either put a bounty on it with a bounty notice asking for a re-evaluation, or leave a comment for the person who said it was by-design and ask for a reevaluation

No but I will aska question on our site about How I can force people who do not agree with me to see reason...

ohh that would be a dupe :p

6:51 PM

(You can leave a comment for editors with @editorname even though it doesn't auto-complete)

@Rachel it was last evaluated 3 years ago though

so I suspect this time a "fresh look" might actually be beneficial? idk though, it would be pretty close to a duplicate

@enderland it is 5 seconds not like 5 minutes... and it is intended to prevent you from clicking the wrong comment because of lag

@enderland you could always just ask a new question, link to the dup, and ask if the proposal could be reevaluated and explain why you think it needs to be reevaluated. Worse thing that happens is it get closed as a dup, and the issue gets more attention :)

it's a pain though and a "designed bad UX" thing

maybe I should get @BenBrocka to support this :)

The feature is actually SE's method of dealing with a bug in ajax i think

6:53 PM

@Rachel plus I only have 1k rep on meta.so :)

@enderland they could make it impossible for you to delete your own comment :p

When are you deleting so many comments that this even matters?

@Chad mr thinking-on-the-brightside I see

@Shog9 on here we frequently have a comment exchange with the author to clean up the post

and so once a post is edited, it's annoying to have to wait to delete these comments

@enderland Flag the post, "Yannis, plz purge all this thnks!!!"

@Shog9 I guess I don't see "make the mods do work I should be able to do" as a good workaround :P

6:55 PM

@Shog9 Yannis isn't a moderator here. Are you suggesting something??? ;)

dammit, what site is this?

I have too many windows open again

Workplace, lol

ok, address @jmort then

still feels like a really poor workaround (creating more work for mods) to a problem which shouldn't exist

@enderland Well, the problem is that for a non-trivial number of comments you're probably orphaning a bunch of replies as well. So you're making more work for someone either way.

(for a trivial number of comments... It's 5-seconds man.)

6:57 PM

well normally the comments in response are clarfying the questino

well we spend a lot of time fighting people here to make questions not suck :P

we don't just close/DV/delete them all...

though maybe we should, sure would be easier

@enderland ok, lesse...

You've commented on 542 posts

@enderland Shhh you speak blasphemy!

You once left 7 comments on a single post

a few times, you left 3 or 4

most of the time, you leave 1 or 2

I guess I dislike - strongly - "features" which intentionally cause a worse user experience

That's a 0-5 seconds wait-time for the vast majority of cleanups.

7:00 PM

well, unless I also want to upvote the clarification comment someone else left (especially if multiples)

@enderland Not really a feature. More of an implementation detail.

The feature would be changing it - re-writing the logic of something purely to support an uncommon use-case.

Of course, everything has to be rate-limited in some way to prevent abuse - so there'd still be a limit, it'd just be a different limit.

I don't think it's all that often people leave a comment asking a question, get an answer, and then want to delete their comment and upvote the response to their comment

(there actually is a different limit, but good luck ever hitting it right now)

@enderland well, let's see...

You've deleted comments on 62 posts

@enderland I'm slowly learning that there's a StackApps userscript for just about everything. Perhaps someone has one somewhere, or could help you right one :)

2

6 of those, you deleted 2 comments. One, you deleted 4. The rest, you deleted a single comment.

7:03 PM

@Shog9 I'm not trying to say this is an annoying enough UX problem I'll stop using these sites

@enderland in cases like that I shoot a bounty. Min value (50), "draw attention"

but it does mean I don't upvote comments which I want to periodically, etc

I agree the limitation is irritating - but it's a really uncommon irritation.

@Shog9 perhaps, but I run into that probably every day

It's the sort of thing that's likely to be changed only if the logic is being re-written anyway for some other purpose.

7:04 PM

Maybe it's my fault for upvoting comments so much?

@enderland There's an idea. Why do you up-vote comments?

maybe it's the nature of this site having lots of relevant comment trains clarifying things? I don't know

@enderland I don't see "make the mods do work I should be able to do" as a good That is small thinking :0

@enderland we don't just close/DV/delete them all...though maybe we should, sure would be easier I like that idea

@Shog9 Because oftentimes lots of other people post poiintless comments here and I'm also rate limited on comment flags (flags = voting) so I don't really enjoy that process to determine which comments are wheat vs chaff for so long ;)

See, the flags==votes thing might actually change, since that's being reworked.

(not saying it will, but it's plausible)

7:09 PM

Ohh yeah its also a DDOS vulnerablity

Anyway, I think the take-away here is: y'all talk too much.

@Shog9 no we just get lots of questions which are not good structure for the SE network and try to fix them ;)

I'm totally gonna DDOS them by clicking a button with my mouse every 4 seconds instead of 5

bastard!

@BenBrocka evil genius right there!

7:10 PM

Im gonna write a script to click upvote over and over and over 100 times a second... (not really just example)

@Chad you meant 1000 right? jeesh

@enderland No my computer would feel the impact of that L:p

distribute that script to my bot net and let them have att it

I think clicking something only visible while logged in might quickly end that botnet being a serious problem ;)

@Enderland - I can make the requests appear to be coming from the same source

that is logged in

tiny (by human standards) delay in accepting a command from the same source defeats the ddos

7:41 PM

@BenBrocka wrt 4-5 seconds, a while ago, when I was doing UI, I tested on myself to determine a comfortable delay to wait for the next button click. If memory serves it has been between 2 and 3 sec

and the feeling of comfort difference has been pretty distinct. 0.5 sec more than fairly comfortable felt quite bad

hallway usability testing as Joel wrote

joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000043.html

> A hallway usability test is where you grab the next person that passes by in the hallway and force them to try to use the code you just wrote. If you do this to five people, you will learn 95% of what there is to learn about usability problems in your code.

> Good user interface design is not as hard as you would think...

@gnat You would think so but the internet leads me to believe otherwise

0

Q: As a site, how do we want to determine when to delete questions?

I don't often vote to delete questions because I don't feel I have enough Stack Exchange experience to really know how to apply this ability. As a site, what sorts of questions do we want to be: closed/downvoted and edited closed/downvoted but left around deleted (after how long being closed?)

There are restrictions on when you can delete something. My opinion is if you can delete it and feel it should be then vote to delete... you can also vote to undelete if needed.

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Apr '1312

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