/dev/chat

lgeorget

6:09 AM

@FaheemMitha history.stackexchange.com :p

more seriously, I don't know where it would belong, maybe SuperUser?

Faheem Mitha

7:46 AM

Shouldn't the majority reason be the one given, though? Here the minority one was. And it's less suitable, imo.

Jenny D

@lgeorget I don't think it belongs on SE at all. The answer is "because the standards were written that way". It's certainly not a Unix question at all.

Faheem Mitha

It still got answers, though.

Jenny D

A lot of people will answer off-topic questions. That still doesn't make them on-topic.

Faheem Mitha

@JennyD True. They were high-rep users, though. One would expect them to know better.

Jenny D

I've made the same mistake on other posts - it's easy to get carried away with "oh, I know this" or "oh, this is interesting".

Faheem Mitha

7:50 AM

@JennyD Ok. Though it isn't a particularly interesting question, as history or otherwise.

It's certainly possible to ask interesting history questions.

Jenny D

But as a general rule, questions like "why did $PERSON/GROUP make the standard like this/make the program behave like this" are bad subjective questions. There may be exceptions to the rule, but I don't think this was one.

Michael Homer

Sometimes they do turn out to have documented answers. This question, I don't understand why anybody would ask here.

Faheem Mitha

Here's one that even I upvoted, but if there is an answer, it's lost in the mists of time. Maybe someone like Richard Stallman would have an answer.

7

Q: What is the historical origin of CTRL + P for up and CTRL + N for down?

I am a moderately experienced vim user, who is now beginning to use GNU emacs. At about the same time as I learned that Ctrl-p and Ctrl-n are the default for up and down in emacs, I also learned they are variants of k and j in normal mode in vim. Does anyone know the origin of these shortcuts? I...

@MichaelHomer Yes, and somone with non-trivial rep too.

Maybe he was at a party and they got to talking about it.

Michael Homer

@FaheemMitha But 28k on SO, and more than here on Programmers, where he might have gotten away with it.

Faheem Mitha

@MichaelHomer Got away with asking off-topic questions?

And the obvious answer to P and N is that it is (probably) Previous and Next.

I bet if one was to write to Stallman (without telling him the origin) he'd reply, even if it is was with a I-don't-know.

He does reply to email.

Michael Homer

7:57 AM

@FaheemMitha It might be on topic there. Better than here, anyway.

Faheem Mitha

@MichaelHomer Oh, you mean the question under discussion.

Faheem Mitha

5:32 PM

I recently swapped out one video card for another. Does the OS retain any memory of this? It's been a few weeks, and the system logs of the event are probably gone by now.

derobert

5:57 PM

@FaheemMitha Yes, absolutely. It's pining for its old video card. You'd best attach it gently to the side of the machine, or it might haunt you forever... ghostly voice "video card…video card…"

(serious answer: it might be in a log somewhere, or a name in an X config, or... are you trying to make sure nothing is broken, or are you trying to look for forensic evidence?)

Faheem Mitha

@derobert Too late, that card is history. Actually, I think my computer guy went off with it. That's quite fitting, since I got it from him originally.

Jenny D

If you had to compile in a different driver into the kernel, that will remain. Otherwise I can't think of something off-hand.

Faheem Mitha

@JennyD Hmm, yes, I did upgrade the drivers from Nvidia legacy to Nvidia regular, actually. The same day I installed the new card, I think. My old card was so ancient, it was not supported by the regular drivers any longer.

But I don't think dpkg or apt keeps records of installations for very long, either.

Jenny D

Although, to be precise, it doesn't remember the card. It just keeps having the driver around.

@FaheemMitha Are you sure of that?

derobert

if you have an xorg config, there are identifiers for cards, monitors, etc. in there. A lot of those are for human convenience—X only cares they match each other—so often the model # is used there

Faheem Mitha

6:01 PM

@JennyD Well, those logs do get pruned, don't they?

derobert

nthony@Zia:~$ ls -l /var/log/dpkg.log*
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1162894 Apr 29 13:56 /var/log/dpkg.log
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1301497 Mar 29 16:05 /var/log/dpkg.log.1
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root   85464 Jun 30  2015 /var/log/dpkg.log.10.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root  123415 May 27  2015 /var/log/dpkg.log.11.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root   36441 Apr 28  2015 /var/log/dpkg.log.12.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root   95607 Feb 29 13:01 /var/log/dpkg.log.2.gz
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root  105645 Jan 29 17:08 /var/log/dpkg.log.3.gz

... eventually.

Jenny D

If you've got log pruning setup, yes. But it's not just a log, it's a database, too.

I think. I'm not that familiar with debian. I believe that yum keeps the info.

Faheem Mitha

@JennyD I've only got the defaults.

@derobert Do you happen to know the defaults for dpkg/apt log pruning?

derobert

@FaheemMitha I doubt I've changed them, in which case its a year. Check your /etc/logrotate.d/{apt,dpkg,aptitude} (etc.)

Faheem Mitha

Huh, it looks like I've got logs in /var/log/apt going back to May 2015.

So, yes, looks like a year.

/var/log/apt/term.log {
rotate 12
monthly
compress
missingok
notifempty
}

/var/log/apt/history.log {
rotate 12
monthly
compress
missingok
notifempty
}

derobert

6:04 PM

Of course, "there is a log of the old card" isn't a problem to solve, unless you need a forensic examiner to be unable to determine you changed a video card. In which case I'd suggest wiping the disk and reinstalling.

Faheem Mitha

Hmm, longer than I expected.

@derobert No, just wondering how long the new card has been in there. The old card used to crash all the time.

derobert

(oh, and also not talking about it in teh interwebs :-p )

Faheem Mitha

Finally @cas said, essentially, your card is crap, get rid of it. So, I did.

Eventually.

derobert

@FaheemMitha you could probably search chat history here to find out, if you can't find out from the logs

Faheem Mitha

@derobert True. But I can't remember if I talked about it at the time.

derobert

6:06 PM

you could also check for /var/log/Xorg*, and also some crashes are logged by the kernel to the kernel logs

(though you probably only keep those for a month)

Faheem Mitha

@derobert They only keep one old copy though.

derobert

... unless you're running systemd's journal, then you may have complete logs going back for quite a while

Faheem Mitha

@derobert I don't know what systemd's journal is.

derobert

try journalctl --list-boots to see if you've got multiple boots logged in the journal

Faheem Mitha

journalctl --list-boots
0 f3abfa28e921463e9d0d1acfdce78d51 Fri 2016-03-11 21:37:49 IST—Fri 2016-04-29 23:35:24 IST

derobert

6:09 PM

sounds like you don't have the persistent journal enabled. It's not by default in Jessie.

Faheem Mitha

@derobert I'm using the defaults. I don't know anything about systemd. Though I am willing to learn.

@derobert So, what are your thoughts about systemd timers? Possibly you noticed the question I asked about it?

@JennyD Are the BSDs using systemd?

derobert

systemd is (in-)famously Linux-only

Faheem Mitha

Ok. So the BSDs get to miss out on all the flamewars - I mean all the fun.

derobert

@FaheemMitha /usr/share/doc/systemd/README.Debian.gz has instructions for enabling the persistent journal. systemd has its own logger...

Faheem Mitha

@derobert Is that a good idea?

derobert

6:12 PM

I have it enabled on my boxes, it has a lot of nice things (like being able to filter for output from a given service, particular boot, etc.) ... but I haven't been crazy enough to turn off traditional syslog yet.

Faheem Mitha

Hmm, looks like 2016-03-02 was the day I got rid of the Nvidia legacy drivers. So two months approximately, then.

@derobert Can you have both, then?

derobert

yep

Faheem Mitha

Ok, reading.

Enabling persistent logging in journald
=======================================

To enable persistent logging, create /var/log/journal and set up proper
permissions:

install -d -g systemd-journal /var/log/journal
setfacl -R -nm g:adm:rx,d:g:adm:rx /var/log/journal

-- Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@debian.org>, Wed, 12 Oct 2011 08:43:50 +0200

Is that the thing?

derobert

yep

Faheem Mitha

Is it reversible?

derobert

6:15 PM

@FaheemMitha sure, just rm -Rf /var/log/journal and reboot

Faheem Mitha

@derobert Ok.

Ok, ran it. Do I need to reboot?

derobert

yeah, it'll be enabled starting with the next boot. You can probably restart some service instead

Faheem Mitha

I feel a little bad about this, but I VTC this one:

0

Q: Qubes OS and .deb packages

Qubes is a beautiful OS. However, I don't see a file manager for templates. So how do I drag over (say, by usb, and where to!? dom0?!) a .deb file or .rpm to start the install process. Each AppVM has its own Package Install which automatically tries to open and install the package (which it can't...

debian package-management xen deb qubes

His question is unintelligible, imo.

@derobert systemctl?

derobert

@FaheemMitha not sure what service it is that you'd restart...

Faheem Mitha

Ok

derobert

6:19 PM

systemd-journal-flush.service maybe. Or maybe systemd-journald.service. Or could be something else.

Faheem Mitha

Doesn't really matter.

Someone complained that USB didn't work on a newer kernel. Strange.

user23324

anybody with experience on bash history on Ubuntu 14.04?

Faheem Mitha

Though if USB breaks, that's quite bad. It's now all we have available for peripherals.

@user23324 There is the site for asking questions. Just sayin'. Or just ask.

derobert

hey, my keyboard is PS/2 like Mammon intended!

user23324

ok thanx Faheem

Faheem Mitha

6:21 PM

@derobert Heh. Do computers even come with PS/2 any longer? And, Mammon?

derobert

@FaheemMitha Well, obviously IBM at the time...

Faheem Mitha

@derobert Oh, them.

What's the status of PS/2, anyway? Is it being phased out?

derobert

For a long time my keyboard at home had a PS/2 adapter on it. But the other side of that adapter wasn't USB. Eventually that keyboard broke and I had to get a new one, with PS/2.

I wonder if you can chain AT → PS/2 → USB through adapters and have it work...

Faheem Mitha

I just looked at the back of my computer, and there is some kind of weird mouse/keyboarf combo deal. Half of the disk is green, the other half is purple. And there are icons of both a mouse and a keyboard on the side.

Wonder what that's about.

derobert

Ah! But you have a PS/2 port?

Faheem Mitha

6:29 PM

The thing on the far left:

@derobert It appears so. Though I didn't know till now it was there.

derobert

yep, definitely appears to be a PS/2 port. Above two USB ports.

/me wonders what red USB ports are...

Faheem Mitha

The back of my computer is dominated by USB ports though. Tons of them. Needless to say, I rarely look back there.

@derobert Maybe they're Satanic USB ports.

derobert

Could be. If you ever get a USB stick from a Windows-using friend, maybe that's what they're for.

Faheem Mitha

Perhaps. Would PS/2 devices work if the USB subsystem was broken?

derobert

@FaheemMitha They should.

Faheem Mitha

6:38 PM

@derobert Ok. Well, I suggested it to that chap.

Faheem Mitha

7:01 PM

So, systemd timers, anyone?

Aaron Hall

7:20 PM

So what does systemd do well?

derobert

@FaheemMitha I upvoted it :-/

Faheem Mitha

8:38 PM

@derobert Thanks.

@AaronHall Opinions vary.

@derobert Still no answers, though.

Faheem Mitha

10:30 PM

@derobert Just to be clear (not that it really matters) that isn't a photo of my computer, just something off the net that shows that combo PS/2 port.

Abhishek Bhatia

is this command github.com/rajbot/kivy_pyinstaller_linux_example/blob/master/… valid?

I get the error dpkg-deb: error: package name has characters that aren't lowercase alphanums or '-+.'

Faheem Mitha

10:45 PM

So, this line is supposed filter standard error, but when I've working with a remote output, it doesn't.

{ borg check faheem@ramnode:/mnt/backup-Mail 2>&1 1>&3 | tr '\r' '\n' | grep -v "^Checking segments" 1>&2; } 3>&1

It is worth asking on the site, or am I missing something obvious? Opinions?

@AbhishekBhatia Background, please. You're writing a script to create a Debian package from scratch?

Abhishek Bhatia

@FaheemMitha yeah

Faheem Mitha

What does your control file look like? Your script is hard to parse.

Abhishek Bhatia

I built a executable with pyinstaller. Now I create .deb from it.

Faheem Mitha

@AbhishekBhatia I'd recommend you create a Debian package in the usual way.

Abhishek Bhatia

Can you elaborate more please?

My src code is in python, thus I use pyinstaller. Directly creating .deb from src code should not be possible I think.

Faheem Mitha

10:53 PM

@AbhishekBhatia It's not only possible, but very easy. Just do apt-get source any_python_package_you_fancy and look at the debian/rules and debian/control file.

Abhishek Bhatia

are you sure? I thought that what pyinstaller was for. It ships the interpreter as well.