last day (20 days later) » 

7:41 PM
-6
Q: "Goy" lowest status of bnei Noach?

EhevuTovSome examples and juxtapositions... Chabad: The nations of the world emanate from the three impure klipot(Likutei Amaarim Ch.1). The Chasidei Umot haOlam, however, emanate from klipot nogah(Lessons in Tanya Ch.1(last paragraph)). Other Examples and juxtapositions: The goy is steeped in...

 
I would reccomend editing in "according to the Tanya is the goy the lowest status of bnei Noach? Is there anything lower among humanity?" to make it clear that this question is only according to the Tanya; not Judaism as a whole.
 
I'm just using Tanya as an example. I could post Mishneh Torah that says it's ok to let a goy die. Or Yevamos saying goyim are like donkeys. I'm wanting to know if there is anything lower than that for humanity.
 
@EhevuTov - Your cavalier use of sources, especially in this sensitive area, astounds me. Your offer to quote other texts out of context sounds like a threat. I second (or perhaps third) the motion for a disclaimer. And perhaps another disclaimer that although it sounds like a Jewish version of Nazi racist spirituality that it's really not. HaShem yerahhem. Kol tuv.
 
I'm a ben Noach with the best intentions and no ill will. My outlook on the different statuses of non-Jews will help rectify improper contention between bnei Yisrael and bnei Noach. It's the vulgar category of "gentile"/"goy" that has been generalized and projected on to the ignorant non-Jew and assumes gentile/goy/akum halacha is referring to him. When in fact, there is another set up non-Jewish halacha:that of the ben Noach/Chasidei Umot haOlam/ger toshav. You can juxtapose Hilchot Melachim 10:10 and 10:12 for quick reference.
 
I'm unsure what you're focusing on from reading your last comment. Are you curious as to how the term "goy" became a derogatory term? If so, check the sidebar on the right, as there is a M.Y. question on that.
 
7:41 PM
Is the goy the lowest status of bnei Noach? I don't think I need to even provide sources for such a simple question, really. A yes or no answer, with a citation for proof would be great.
 
I can't cite a source at the moment but B'nei Noach most certainly are not perceived negatively by mainstream Judaism. Given your references to Tanya, Ehevu, it is quite paradoxical that Rabbi Schneerson actually engaged later in his life in an outreach program to the Noahides! Since it is a rather safe bet that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was well versed in Tanya and believed in its teachings, his outreach to B'nei Noach seems to suggest that Noahides were held with some degree of regard. Judaism does, however, have very negative views on idolators and many remarks in the Talmud........
.........refer to pagans and heathens. By the way, just to clarify, the term "goy" literally means "people" or "nation". In fact, Jews are referred to as "goyim" in scripture: "you [Israelites] will be a holy nation unto G-d". Tanya teachings of different level of souls is of Kabbalah origin and beyond my knowledge base.
 
Sorry to tell you brother but that passage in Yechezkel applies to a ger toshav as well. And the quote from Yevamos is out of context. Rava uses the passage from Yechezkel to say a nonjew has no relation to his father, and Rava started off by saying DON'T say the reason he is not related is because they are immoral but when paternity is certain than they are related, this is not true because the reasoning is that passage in Yechezkel. Although you might infer that Rava is actually saying they are in fact immoral, the fact is that is not exclusively conclusive.
 
@JJLL, "goy" stam, without any other qualifier is referring to the a"kum, lest you suggest that Hilchot Melachim 10:9 that says the goy should not involve in Torah, is the nation of Israel(who, is described with a qualifier as goy kadosh)
@user6591, interesting, I'm assuming since even the ger toshav at max still only emanates from klipot nogah and still only has a nefesh behamus. Interesting. This seems to conflict a little with Rambam's view of the ger toshav in Hilchot Melachim 10:12, but I can't say definitively.
 
@EhevuTov It depends on context. Often, "goy" just generically refers to anyone who is not a Jew. Sometimes it implicitly refers to non-monotheistic non-Jews, or to non-Jews who do not accept the 7 Laws. Sometimes it is used to refer to enemies of the Jews who present a clear bodily danger to Jews. But in a vacuum, it generally has a neutral connotation and refers to all categories of non-Jew.
 
@Fred I'm not asking if Jews really believe this. It's clear in halacha. My question is: Is "Goy" the lowest form of bnei Noach/non-Jew? Is there some other non-Jewish status I'm missing.
 
7:41 PM
The statements in your question require context, and are not properly understood without them. For example, the verse about "seed of horses" has legal implications for all non-Jews, though a person lacking context might be likely to draw negative philosophical implications about non-Jews that would not agree with traditional Jewish beliefs. The statement "a goy should not be saved from death" would also yield an incorrect halachic conclusion without context; in fact, it is an obligation for a Jew to save a non-Jew's life even if he is not a Noahide.
 
As the gemara records the Amoraim saying the only people who hate us more than nonjews are the unlearned Jews. Don't think that by clearly defining status and roles anyone will be any happier accepting you delineation. Imagine telling a certain race where they lie on the status chain so 'we can start interacting with them on their given level that is correct'. Doesn't sound like the type of idea that brings mutual respect and peace now does it.
And as for the Rambam he has two categories. An idolator and one who has accepted God. The term he uses for idolator is Goy. The term used for one who has accepted God is Ger Toshav. So now we have a Rambam saying don't go out of your way to save an idolator's life. Sounds less inflammatory to my nonjewish neighbors than the way you put it, doesn't it?
 
@EhevuTov You can categorize non-Jews (and anyone, for that matter) all sorts of ways. You can categorize non-Jews by whether or not they are members of the seven Canaanite nations (that's worse in some ways). Edomites and Egyptians also are worse in some ways (Deut. 23:9), though in other ways, Edomites and Egyptians are actually superior to other non-Jews (ibid. 23:8). You can categorize them by their level of hostility and threat to Jews. You can categorize them by their monotheism or lack thereof...
@EhevuTov But there's no single predominant hierarchy for strictly ordering the "level" of non-Jews (whatever that means), just as the term "goy" doesn't have a single unified usage throughout Talmudic and rabbinic literature.
 
@Maimonist it is to me. I just like to play things safe. We mustnt forget Poe's Law Especially on a page likely to earn such scrutiny and negative attention as this.
@Fred there are a lot of comments here, so I want to repeat Fred's comment which may have gone unnoticed, as it seems to be the only comment directly addressing and answering the OP's question: but there's no single predominant hierarchy for strictly ordering the "level" of non-Jews (whatever that means), just as the term "goy" doesn't have a single unified usage throughout Talmudic and rabbinic literature
 
I'm having trouble understanding the relevance of the beginning of your post (until the block quotation) to your question. Are you equating "nations of the world" with "goy"? If so, can you edit that in to your question to clarify your assumption? (And if your assumption is based on something, can you edit that in, too?)
 
@msh210, Tanya here is referring to non-Jews and their various states: either emanating from klipot nogah or not. I was trying to use it as an example since the plain "goy" is going to fit in one of these categories. It's well known that if someone is reading halacha and it mentions the "goy" without any further descriptor, it's referring to the a"kum non-Jew. I really don't know why this question is so hard. Maybe I should of phrased it, what is the lowest halachic category of the non-Jew that applies today.
 
7:41 PM
The Pasuk in Hezkiel 23:20 does not say the word GOY! Also you are mixing up Idol-Worshipper and Non-Jew. These are 2 separate sets of people with different "rules".
 
@DannySchoemann that's what the sages use as proof in Yevamos 98a
 
@EhevuTov - that still does not give you license to translate a verse incorrectly. Besides, from Rashi there I'm not convinced that it's actually used as a proof, but it's been a while since I studied that Daf. (And if you check the Posuk in Tanach, it's not written or explained the way the Gemara tries to use it.)
Should be closed as Unclear What You're Asking, as the word GOY does not appear in any of your non-Chabad sources. (Didn't check the Chabad sources.)
 
@DannySchoemann I've edited this question a dozen times already to try and please everyone.
@DannySchoemann I'm paraphrasing; not translating. I don't use quotes or even give the complete sentences. I honestly don't even need to cite anything for a question. I'm pretty sure the Rambam would know what I was referring to if I used the word "goy" when talking about halachah
 
the Rambam uses the term GOY once - in the morning blessings. Otherwise he uses the term נכרי or עכו"ם - as I was saying, there is a difference. Using GOY means you're being too vague.
 
As demonstrated in comments above, the word "goy" means different things in different contexts, including "nation," generically, and "gentile," generically (sometimes pejoratively, but still generically). This question seems to be assuming that it is a term of art with a specific meaning relating to a particular class of gentiles. As the question, in order to be meaningful, needs to specify the particular context in which this term of art is employed, and in which an evaluation of the status of people to which it applies is desired.
 
7:41 PM
Like @IsaacMoses said, I really don't think you will find anybody who uses the word "goy" to mean a particular category of non-Jews. Either it just means non-Jews (maybe or maybe not pejoratively depending on context, but in either case would include all non-Jews), or it just means a nation.
 
@DannySchoemann in my Koren Talmud Bavli and Mishneh Torah haShelem it says "goy" all over the place. You're referring to edited European versions of the Mishneh Torah.
 
8:24 PM
@IsaacMoses, "goy" in context of Mishneh Torah haShelem, Hilchot Avodah Zarah 10:1, Hilchot Melachim 10:9, 10:10, and 10:12. <Jean Luc Picard voice> Mr IsaacMoses. Engage.
 

  last day (20 days later) »