Language Overflow

Anonymous

12:01 AM

Dunno, what's a short U?

Anonymous

I suppose u is short and U is tall, now that I think about it.

Nihilist_Frost

Sorry, I'm typing from my phone right now.

/ʌ/

Anonymous

Are there people who don't pronounce it with ʌ? How do they pronounce it?

Anonymous

12:17 AM

Since it's a function word it can be reduced.

Anonymous

So I'd expect to see transcriptions with both wedge and schwa.

Anonymous

I'll look it up later in the LPD. I'm on my phone too :-)

Anonymous

So I can't check easily.

Anonymous

Or type easily. Stupid phone.

Anonymous

12:51 AM

Hello again!

Anonymous

The LPD lists /frɒm/ (BrE), /frʌm/ (AmE), /frɑːm/ (AmE) and /frəm/ (weak form) as pronunciations of from.

Anonymous

So I guess a lot of people don't pronounce it with ʌ!

Anonymous

I never paid attention before.

Anonymous

Now I'm wondering what the answer to your question is: who pronounces from with ʌ? I don't know! :-)

Anonymous

Wiktionary marks the ɑ pronunciation as "emphasized".

Anonymous

1:16 AM

And so far, I've failed to turn up any answers.

Anonymous

@Nihilist_Frost You could ask it as a question on one of the English sites! Dictionaries list both ʌ and ɑ in AmE transcriptions of from. Where exactly is ʌ used?

Anonymous

I'll try to do more research later. Which might just mean asking someone less ignorant than me :-)

Anonymous

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. You should respond to this: meta.ell.stackexchange.com/q/2836/230

Anonymous

1:34 AM

I've more or less given up on caring about tags on ELL, but I'm sort of participating because it seems like other people care about them.

Anonymous

I feel like some kind of tag zombie.

Anonymous

3:41 AM

Reddit n-grams: projects.fivethirtyeight.com/reddit-ngram/…

Anonymous

Vote for (or against) the genitive → possessive tag synonym here: ell.stackexchange.com/tags/possessive/synonyms

Damkerng T.

3:58 AM

@snailboat Snail became more popular only recently!

> Well, the mostly young and mostly male users of Reddit, anyway.

Hehe!

@snailboat Ah, we can do polls on tags!?

Anonymous

4:14 AM

There's a system set up for creating tag synonyms.

Anonymous

It's rarely used on smaller sites, but in this case we have enough users to do it this way, without involving a moderator.

Damkerng T.

Good evening!

Anonymous

Good evening! :-)

Damkerng T.

They're synonymous on our site now. :D

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yeah, it could be useful to see what sorts of internet slang are popular or are no longer popular on Reddit.

Anonymous

4:16 AM

@DamkerngT. The other 17 questions still have to be retagged, though.

Anonymous

At least, it seems that way.

Anonymous

I've done a lot of synonymizing on Japanese.SE as a moderator, and moderators have a tool that lets you unilaterally create a synonym and retag all the questions.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... it only affects new questions.

Anonymous

Right. Well.

Anonymous

I think that might not be technically right, but I don't know all the details of how synonyms work.

Anonymous

4:23 AM

Okay, the genitive tag is gone now.

Damkerng T.

Yay!

Anonymous

4:48 AM

I kind of miss it :-)

Anonymous

This image is amazing, though:

Anonymous

Damkerng T.

@snailboat It looks amazing! But what is it? :D

Anonymous

Oh, it's from StoneyB's meta post!

Anonymous

4

A: Should we separate the aspects and tenses in tags?

I don't object too strenuously to past-tense and present-tense; though in my universe these aren't tenses but forms, there's a lot to be said for keeping the lines of communication open between the Young Turks and the Mustache Petes. Future-tense is more problematic, and I really dislike progress...

Damkerng T.

4:55 AM

Oh, I missed that!

Technically speaking it's "grammatical", but it's a terrible example of written English - even worse than the clumsy use of "latter" in your other question. In this case, transitive to tatter is rare/obsolete, and readily (willingly) is only marginally acceptable with a "non-sentient" subject like claws. But the worst aspect is that the surface parallelism of should have X, only to have Y doesn't work because have is performing different syntactic/semantic functions. My advice: don't use text like this to learn English. — FumbleFingers 15 hours ago

^Could be useful as a material for How not to write in English. :P

Anonymous

That sentence does sound a bit clumsy.

Anonymous

I think tatter is usually a noun (in tatters), but the meaning of the verb is clear enough.

Anonymous

Readily doesn't seem volitional to me there.

Anonymous

It has another meaning. I don't think that's a problem.

Anonymous

oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/readily

Anonymous

5:07 AM

I think the OP has identified the biggest problem, which is that instead sounds a little unnatural in that position.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I read it as easily at first. The most confusing part is, imho, the omission of that, which could make the sentence a bit like a garden path sentence.

Anonymous

Ah, I didn't even notice it was a bare relative.

Damkerng T.

Partly because the subject is claws, too.

Anonymous

What is the alternate parse?

Damkerng T.

Eh?

Anonymous

5:09 AM

If it's a garden path sentence, you can read it two ways. What is the other way?

Damkerng T.

Oh, I see! Let me try...

> ORIGINAL: The claws scraped at a cloak they should have readily tattered, only to have instead one nail snap off.

> POSSIBLE CONFUSION: The claws scraped at a cloak they (some other beings) should have readily tattered, only to have instead one nail snap off.

> POSSIBLE CONFUSION #2: [The claws scraped at a cloak they (is it a runon?)] should have readily tattered, only to have instead one nail snap off.

Jim Reynolds

Is my naked cousin a bare relative?

Anonymous

Ah, I see.

Damkerng T.

#2 was actually my first reading!

Then I was able to see two more possibilities.

@JimReynolds They're a naked relative :P

Jim Reynolds

How about the claws scraped at a cloak instead of tattering it as they should have ... ?

Anonymous

5:15 AM

@JimReynolds Does your cousin have claws? They might be a bear relative.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think that bare relatives are very common in natural, informal speech whenever they're grammatical.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat nods -- I thought it might help the parsing a little, in that sentence.

Anonymous

So I think native speakers usually don't have any problem understanding them, since they're more or less the default, with alternatives being marked as slightly less common or more formal. In certain types of writing, for example in academic papers, you'll find that all the time. But we're used to seeing bare relatives all the time.

Anonymous

@JimReynolds I'm glad you've had time to stick around lately! :-)　←　I constructed a weird sounding sentence.

Damkerng T.

My plain English: The claws scraped at a cloak, just to have one nail snap off, failing to tatter the cloak.

Jim Reynolds

5:19 AM

Hi @snail "I'm glad . . . " is the weird sounding sentence?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think you might have to swap out the verb tatter if you want to call it "plain English".

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Hehe! True! I forgot that!

Anonymous

@JimReynolds Well, I kept editing what I wrote, so it's kind of a Frankensentence.

Anonymous

I was thinking that have time to and stick around and lately didn't quite gell. Gel? Jell? Jel? Gell.

Anonymous

I don't know how to spell that word.

Anonymous

5:21 AM

Have time to and lately seem to go together.

Anonymous

Oh well, I give up on making sense of the nonsense coming out of my fingertips. :-)

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I can't tell that it's weird. Lately works fine with either the simple present and the present perfect to me, but that's just me!

Jim Reynolds

Hello Pandya

Anonymous

When I'm writing, usually the words that come out of my brain the first time are the best ones. I always want to edit them, though, so I do. I edit, and edit, and edit. At some point I usually feel I've done enough damage, so I give up and move on :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Hehe!

Anonymous

5:23 AM

@DamkerngT. I was thinking stick around was aspectual in nature.

Jim Reynolds

If apple trees make apples, snailboats make weirdnesses.

Pandya

Hello, I want a better word for this answer, in 3rd para I've used "As" in starting of 2nd sentence.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat thinking...

Pandya

Bu I want to be meant: (in Hindi) Jis tarah, jesa ki etc.... any idea?

Anonymous

The stickaroundive aspect.

Damkerng T.

5:24 AM

It sounds like a state verb.

Anonymous

@Pandya I'm sorry, I don't speak Hindi.

Pandya

@snailboat no-problem

Jim Reynolds

Here's Pandya's writing: Area51-discuss profile is similar to meta site for Area51. As you can't (and don't need to) change your meta profile separately for a site because it syncs with your main profile, same thing is applied for Area51 and Area51-discussion. The difference is only for Area51-discussion, it takes more time.

You can use "Just as you can't ... "

Less formally, we often use "Just like you can't ... "

Pandya

I am thinking something like "In like a Manner" @snailboat

@JimReynolds Yes, I mean "regularly you can't....."

Jim Reynolds

Just as you can't delete other users' comments in this chat room, neither can you edit others' comments.

Something like that.

Damkerng T.

5:29 AM

There are several ways to fix the first two sentences in that paragraph. One way is to split them into three simple sentences.

But I'm not sure what Area51-discuss profile is similar to meta site for Area51 means.

Jim Reynolds

Just as Hindus don't eat beef for religious reasons, Muslims do not eat pork for religious reasons.

Damkerng T.

Does it mean that kind of profile is similar to a meta site for Area51?

Pandya

@DamkerngT. Yes, If you want, you can suggest edit for better communication/understanding. "Just as" also sounds fine @JimReynolds

Jim Reynolds

I agree with @Dam, though. everything you wrote here is difficult to understand. It would probably be better to re-write your ideas in a more simple way.

Damkerng T.

> Note: An Area51-discuss profile is similar to a meta site for Area51. You can't (and don't need to) change your meta profile separately for each site because it synchronizes with your main profile. The same thing goes to Area51 and Area51-discussion.

Jim Reynolds

5:32 AM

Lovely!

... the same thing goes for Area51 . . .

Pandya

@DamkerngT. Thanks done!

Damkerng T.

Thanks @JimReynolds!

@Pandya No problem!

Jim Reynolds

:-)

1 billion and 1 customers served.

Damkerng T.

Haha!

Jim Reynolds

Haha!

Pandya

5:36 AM

Such chat-room like this does help/support to who looking for correction/improvement. I appreciate, Thanks.

Damkerng T.

Appreciate your appreciation. :D

Anonymous

Metappreciation!

Jim Reynolds

5:50 AM

ell.stackexchange.com/review/reopen/32594

The proofreading police are trigger-happy, if you ask me. And I assume you were about to ask me.

I think the proofreading "rule" needs to be re-written to more clearly say what I think was intended.

Damkerng T.

My understanding is all proofreading requests are acceptable if the OP states a specific concern.

Jim Reynolds

Isn't it clear there that the question is which preposition is correct?

There seems to be a "laziness police" mentality: "No one should ask a question that I wouldn't need to ask because I could figure it out myself." Or something like that.

Wait . . . I'm judging people for being . . . judgmental. O.O

Our planet should be on parole.

There are lambs on the planet, but is the planet on the lam?

Damkerng T.

Aww

It's a good thing that we have the Reopen button.

Jim Reynolds

6:11 AM

I think there's a cultural issue here. I have noticed something myself as a US American in Taiwan: I often feel anger flash through me when students ask certain questions.

The anger is a response to a value system that contains a set of rules.

There's a violation of the rule: It's a student's/learner's duty to first try to research an answer themself before asking a teacher/authority.

But this value does not exist in Taiwanese culture, at least not at all to the same degree.

What's a teacher for if not to ask questions?

Damkerng T.

As an engineer, I think one of the most important things a teacher can do is to teach their students to know how to think.

Jim Reynolds

It could be fine to have a standard or expectation that we don't accept questions which can be quickly and simply be researched, but what I notice is a persecution of people who don't operate on this concept.

Yes, but so often the teaching is by "punishment."

You shouldn't have asked this question.

Furthermore, many people do not even know that such things as dictionaries of idioms exist.

They may not exist in a context with a practice of online research for such questions.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That's s'posed to happen in linguistics, too. :-)

Damkerng T.

I guess so!

Jim Reynolds

I would just like to see fewer messages that essentially communicate: "You shouldn't have asked. You're bothering us. You're lazy."

I wish everyone were as nice as me.

Waaa Haaa Haaaa haaaaaaa

Anonymous

6:18 AM

Stack Exchange isn't supposed to be mean.

Anonymous

It's supposed to have mechanisms built-in to deal with things like that without having to repel people via meanness.

Anonymous

We close questions instead of belittling the people who ask them until they go away.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds It's a bit unexpected, I think, to find that some users know how to use the Internet but don't know how to use dictionaries.

Anonymous

We don't even want them to go away. We just want good questions. So it's even better if they stick around and ask better questions! :-)

Jim Reynolds

Well, lots of people don't even have useful resources in their native language online.

Anonymous

6:19 AM

That's why we need to use those mechanisms and close questions whenever they fit those criteria.

Anonymous

That's why we have the pre-made close reason for questions that are entirely answerable via a dictionary.

Anonymous

But that's not a reason to be mean. To tell people to go away. To tell people that they're lazy, or that they're bothering us.

Anonymous

Those things aren't okay.

Anonymous

They focus on the person. On SE, we're supposed to be focusing on the question, not the person.

Jim Reynolds

The problem is also one of intent vs interpretation of tone.

Have you looked it up?

Is that a challenge, a rebuke, or a helpful and encouraging pointer?

Anonymous

6:21 AM

I do agree that we shouldn't close things as proofreading questions if they aren't proofreading questions.

Anonymous

And sometimes people do just that.

Damkerng T.

I almost always leave a comment when I vote to close a question from a new user. I hope everyone tries the same.

Jim Reynolds

I propose an ELL campaign: Be more Damkerng T.-like in 2016!

Damkerng T.

Hah!

Anonymous

Damkerng T. for Prototype!

Jim Reynolds

6:22 AM

Or burn in Hell.

O.O

Damkerng T.

o_O

Anonymous

@JimReynolds Your mom!

Jim Reynolds

lol

Your progenitor!

Your inventor, Dam!

Anonymous

I didn't learn that many insults on the playground as a child. I'm still not very good at them, but your mom always stuck with me.

Jim Reynolds

Humorously/sarcastically insulting a parent does not work AT ALL in collectivistic cultures.

Anonymous

6:24 AM

Haha.

Jim Reynolds

It's interesting how often and intensely mothers are humorously insulted in some way in Western sitcoms.

A mother's on the way to the house, hide.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds I have no detail files about my inventor. They must've hidden it from me!

Jim Reynolds

Haha

Damkerng T.

Maybe "detailed" works better in there

Jim Reynolds

There's a common expression ... the illegitimate love child of X and Y.

Dam may be the illegitimate love child of the International Space Station and a Fitbit.

Damkerng T.

6:27 AM

Haha!

> 38.media.tumblr.com/5afd21f87a035e7bf09e9dac175cb5ab/…

^Could be a nice avatar, eh? :-)

Jim Reynolds

Yes. It's cool!

Nathan Tuggy

9:12 AM

@JimReynolds Yeah, we worked on that:

9

Q: Let's rewrite the "Proofreading" close reason

It's been discussed that the proofreading close reason is overused: Stop throwing "Proofreading" close reason at questions that are clearly limited to a single point of concern As part of my answer, I recommended that we consider rephrasing the "Proofreading" close reason so that it's less like...

It didn't reach an entirely clear point of resolution, though.

Anonymous

9:32 AM

@DamkerngT. So shiny. So very shiny!

Anonymous

@JimReynolds I'm still using those weights! :-)

Anonymous

I don't have a Fitbit, though.

Anonymous

I do have a pedometer.

Anonymous

But I don't trust anything that purports to tell me how many calories I've burned.

Nathan Tuggy

Unless it just says "Not enough"?

Jim Reynolds

9:38 AM

Hi Nathan. Thanks for that.

Nathan Tuggy

Np, there's probably been other discussions, but that's the most recent one

Damkerng T.

12:10 PM

> "- Dad I need a toilet! - Bear/Stand/Put up with it, we will be home soon"

> ell.stackexchange.com/q/77630/3281

Probably, "Hold it!" or "Clench it!"

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@NathanTuggy Seems to be the case with many posts on meta.ELL.

I had to get people to vote on a poll to decide the fate of grammar.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

12:58 PM

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Blast! I just wasted my 50 rep then. — Jony Agarwal 28 secs ago

@Dam negotiationiatinism works.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Hold it works.

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Well done!

Anonymous

I've never heard clench it, but it seems understandable enough.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I think I've heard Clench it used humorously too.

(Not very sure)

Anonymous

So I can imagine it, but I don't think I've ever heard it myself.

Damkerng T.

1:05 PM

nods

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

12

Q: The definite article "the" was missing

I read news on the BBC (on its website) this morning. When I was reading the news I noticed the definite article the was missing in a sentence. As per my opinion, the reporter missed the article the. But I also thought that the reporter also had some point as he did not use the article there. So ...

definite-article as bare-role-noun-phrases

Bare role noun phrases?

@Snail something I've noticed;

Ah forget it.

I got too sleepy to phrase.

Damkerng T.

2:22 PM

> electronicbookreview.com/thread/firstperson/superwoman

Will we write faster this way?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

3:49 PM

@Dam only 10 minutes left till TRE! BUZZZ BUZZZ

user13267

4:08 PM

Hi

Could anyone help me with an English question please?

Damkerng T.

4:20 PM

@user13267 What's the question?

user13267

It's based on this paragraph

please wait while I copy it

However, it wasn’t until the discovery of the reaction principle, which was the key to space travel and so represents one of the great milestones in the history of scientific thought, that rocket technology was able to develop. Not only did it solve a problem that had intrigued man for ages, but, more importantly, it literally opened the door to exploration of the universe.

------------
The question is this:
-------------

5 The greatest outcome of the discovery of the reaction principle was that
A rockets could be propelled into the air.
B space travel became a reality.
C a major problem had been solved.
D bigger rockets were able to be built.

What do you think should be the answer?

Damkerng T.

Where's the question from?

user13267

IELTS

Damkerng T.

I would say, none of the above.

But if it's from IELTS...

B looks like a good option.

It's not a great question, though, imho.

user13267

Why is it a good option?

As compared to C?

The concept of the rocket, or rather the mechanism behind the idea of propelling an object into the air, has been around for well over two thousand years.

Damkerng T.

4:25 PM

Assuming that it's really from IELTS (which I'm guessing that it's probably not, cause it seems to be lower than the standard of the test), C is not a good option because a major problem is too vague.

user13267

it's one of their sample questions actually

not really a test question

Damkerng T.

"The greatest outcome of the discovery of the reaction principle" -- rocket? Really?

user13267

The real answer is B

but can C be dismissed just because it looks too vague ?

The next sentence does say that reaction principle solved a problem

Damkerng T.

There is no real implication that it has solved anything that can be considered "major".

user13267

and it pretty much says reaction principle was the reason for existence of space travel, but I can't see how this sentence implies that space travel is the greatest outcome of space travel

Damkerng T.

4:32 PM

@user13267 Exactly! (If you meant "the greatest outcome of the discovery")

user13267

sorry I'll edit that

Damkerng T.

The question is like asking what's the value of Pi, and then the choices are 2, 3, 4, 5. None of them is correct, but 3 is the closest one.

@user13267 Don't worry! If we understand what you meant, that's already enough. ;-)

user13267

and it pretty much says reaction principle was the reason for existence of space travel, but I can't see how this sentence implies that space travel is the greatest outcome of reaction principle

sorry it turns out the edit duration for the last message had expired

I'm not really familiar with SE chat features

Damkerng T.

It's a bit odd. I think they put it there to avoid spam.

(the 2-minute limit)

user13267

I think it comes down to experience with vague complicated sentences in a case like this

may be there's no way to specifically tell which one is the correct answer

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

4:38 PM

@user13267 Experience? No. Let's not call that experience.

Damkerng T.

GMAT/GRE exams are usually tighter than this (and more difficult at the same time).

The example question doesn't tie up the loose ends very well, imo.

user13267

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. what do you call it then?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@user13267 Getting familiar with the language.

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Mind reading, perhaps? :P

user13267

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. isn't that in itself an experience?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

4:40 PM

No.

Do you call a 10-yo native speaker experienced?

user13267

he would be more experienced in terms of language

Damkerng T.

Maybe, maybe not. I'd say that they're more experienced in conversational English.

user13267

anyway thank you for your time

Damkerng T.

You're welcome!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. NOW GET BACK TO WORK! :p

Damkerng T.

4:45 PM

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I've done my part for the day. :D

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. Your code is compiling?

user13267

just before I go though

now that I look back at it

I think it should be obvious B is the right answer

Damkerng T.

@user13267 When dealing with this kind of test, the simplest answer is usually the best answer.

(In other words, don't think too much.)

user13267

let me write down what I think, and may be you can help me determine if I thinking is correct

The concept of the rocket, or rather the mechanism behind the idea of propelling an object into the air, has been around for well over two thousand years.
However, it wasn’t until the discovery of the reaction principle, which was the key to space travel and so represents one of the great milestones in the history of scientific thought, that rocket technology was able to develop. Not only did it solve a problem that had intrigued man for ages, but, more importantly, it literally opened the door to exploration of the universe.

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I have fewer than 50 grammar answers now. ;-)

CopperKettle

4:47 PM

@user13267 Nice text!

user13267

So in this sentence, reaction principle is the reason for space travel, and space travel is the "one of the great milestones"

again, in the last sentence, it says, more importantly, it literally opened the door to exploration of the universe

" door to exploration of the universe" means space travel, which has been emphasized by more importantly

hence space travel is the greatest outcome from the discovery of reaction principle

so is this analysis ok?

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. (づ｡◕‿‿◕｡)づ

Damkerng T.

@user13267 Could be. I still don't think that more importantly implies that the greatest outcome of the discovery is rocket tech/space travel, according to the text.

user13267

May be I should just take your previous advice

"@user13267 When dealing with this kind of test, the simplest answer is usually the best answer."

"
(In other words, don't think too much.)"

Damkerng T.

LOL

You'll need to think much more carefully in GMAT/GRE tests.

user13267

4:56 PM

I'll that in mind

for now I need to think about this test

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure about IELTS Academic, but in the standard IELTS, you can get by with just common sense.

user13267

this one was a sample for the Academic though

Damkerng T.

I'm going to take a break. BBL

CopperKettle

Rest well, Damnkerng!

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

@DamkerngT. Have a break, have a kit-kat. \o

CopperKettle

5:04 PM

Well I know that, but can Sir James answer "I have a brandy". I mean, is it completly wrong? Or do sometimes English/US people use it? Let's say for example we have got Omar Simpson in place of Sir James. — Marco Demaio 26 mins ago

"Omar Simpson" (0:

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

6:11 PM

@DamkerngT. Are we allowed to use "bah" or "meh"?

Damkerng T.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I don't see why we're not.

Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ.

6:41 PM

@DamkerngT. Then it's a good test.

@V.V. I've seen you a lot, but you don't talk much. Any reason you're shy? :)