The Nineteenth Byte

Zach Gates

12:00 AM

@Doorknob That's different than chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/24318926#24318926

feersum

So it should be fine to use len("""....

Doorknob

llama@llama:~$ echo -n 頤 | wc -c
3

quartata

I'm back

What did I miss?

@Doorknob That's something that's really annoyed me with my Invisifuck interpreter

I have to read 3 bytes and see if they are ok

New Main Posts

0

Q: Maze generating onliner

The famous C64 basic one liner 10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10 prints a maze of slashes and backslashes. \\/\\\//\/\////\\/\/ \/\///\\///////\//\/ /\\\//\//\////\\//\\ \////\//\//\/\\\\\\/ /\/\\///\\\\/\\\\/\\ \/\//\\\\\\//\/\//// /\//\\///\/\///\//// \/\\\//\\/\\\//\\/\/ //////\\/\\/\...

0

Q: Palandrome-ish code

Create a program that does the same thing forwards and backwards, in different languages. “Different languages” does not include different versions of the same language. Also, if you use a derivative language, (i.e. c++ and c), the program must not run in the parent language (Is this too harsh?)....

popularity-contest polyglot

quartata

Invisifuck = BF with invisible characters

I'm working on it

Darn someone already posted making a 24 game solver

I thought I was being so unique here

Hmm back to the drawing board

minxomat

12:06 AM

Take 바 for example (korean for "bar"). This is 1 symbol, 2 real characters (ㅂ and ㅏ, b and a) and 3 bytes :)

quartata

That's even more confusing

UTF-8 pls

minxomat

[invisifuck] Isn't this basically Whitespace?

quartata

@minxomat It's whitespace but worse

See it's totally invisible like to the point that in most editors the cursor acts like the file is empty

It's like it's not even there

You have to use a hex editor to program it basically

Doorknob

or a sane text editor

Sp3000

Or just write it normally, and write a conversion program :P

Doorknob

12:10 AM

^ how vim shows a ZWSP character

quartata

@Sp3000 Shh that's how I test it

Doorknob

Oh also, you can input one of these ZWSPs with <C-v>u200b, which you can also use for any Unicode code point

(in insert mode)

quartata

So + is INVISIBLE PLUS, - is INVISIBLE TIMES, . is WORD JOINER, > is LEFT-TO-RIGHT ISOLATE, < is RIGHT-TO-LEFT ISOLATE, , is INVISIBLE SEPARATOR, [ is FUNCTIONAL APPLICATION and ] is POP DIRECTIONAL ISOLATE

Gonna be great

It'll achieve what whitespace was aiming for but failed

Calvin's Hobbies

@AlexA. I was wondering when you would join chat. People here keep talking about serious things like programming.

quartata

Ayy Calvin

Alex A.

12:16 AM

GOD DAMN!

Let's talk about bananas.

Shut up about programming.

quartata

Teach me how to be xx MLG challenge writer xx please

Calvin's Hobbies

They're yellow

quartata

I like bananas.

They can give you hyperkalemia if you eat too many though.

Kinda sucks when people keel over at my banana-eating contests.

Alex A.

And hypokalemia if you eat too few.

Do you actually have banana eating contests?

I'm intrigued...

Calvin's Hobbies

MLPPCG

quartata

12:17 AM

@AlexA. No that was a joke.

I like plums better than bananas. (Please don't burn me at the stake.)

Alex A.

@Calvin'sHobbies As long as it isn't "MLP PCG" then we're okay. :P

quartata

Major League Code Golf coming soon to a Youtube channel near you

Alex A.

@quartata Plums from my grandma's back yard are awesome. Plums from my parents back yard are not.

Sp3000

I like scheming with bananas

Calvin's Hobbies

@quartata I can't describe how I do it. It doesn't seem all that special to me

quartata

12:19 AM

@AlexA. I wish I had a backyard to grow plums.

@Calvin'sHobbies Hmm

Alex A.

I don't have one either.

quartata

Can you tell me what's wrong with these challenges then: codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/58593/… codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/58645/confidant-numbers

I feel like I've done something wrong here because there's not that many answers on them even though they have a lot of upvotes.

Calvin's Hobbies

answers and votes aren't correlated necessarily

quartata

I mean the first one is complicated but the second one isn't that bad (or at least I thought).

Sp3000

Upvotes do not correlate with answer number

quartata

12:20 AM

Fair enough...

Calvin's Hobbies

Easier (or cuter) problems often get more answers

quartata

@Calvin'sHobbies ASCII Art Bunny. 1337 upvotes, 360 answers.

OK I get the meta now.

Let's see here...

Sp3000

Correction: ASCII art bunny with a dorayaki/pancake on top

3

quartata

I see...

Thank you for sharing your wisdom with me.

Sp3000

(Here in case it went over anyone's head)

quartata

12:23 AM

LOL

Say, I just found this challenge: codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/54807/…

This looks like it was a lot of fun. Are we ever going to see an obfuscation/cops-and-robbers thing like this again?

Alex A.

Nope. Never again.

quartata

rip

Sp3000

Obfuscation CnR? Probably yes. The exact same one? No

Alex A.

If we do it would be closed as a duplicate.

quartata

Yeah not the exact same one obviously

But maybe like similar concept but calculate prime numbers or somethin instead of Hello World?

Sp3000

12:27 AM

e.g. this was another pretty good one

Alex A.

@quartata Dennis did the prime catalog, if by Hello World you're referring to the Hello World catalog that Martin did.

El'endia Starman

I would have no hope of getting away with a Befunge answer in a CnR question... :P

Sp3000

i think quartata means Hello World Quiz

Alex A.

Hello World Quiz?

Sp3000

TPLQ

Alex A.

12:29 AM

Ohhhhhh right

quartata

Yeah that but with prime numbers instead

Alex A.

I forgot Hello World had anything to do with that

quartata

Would that be OK?

In case you couldn't tell I'm hinting about posting something like that lol

Alex A.

You can go ahead and sandbox it.

Sp3000

I'd say probably not, because half the pain of TPLQ was just finding really obscure languages and was more research than programming

Alex A.

12:30 AM

^

quartata

Hmm alright

Alex A.

If the challenge would be otherwise identical to TPLQ, just a different task to obfuscate, I'd probably call it a duplicate.

Calvin's Hobbies

Maybe one where the robber has to write another program that outputs the source of the first, but they don't give the language name so the next robber has to figure it out again. Might reduce to a chain of obvious languages though.

quartata

Ooh

Alex A.

System.out.println("dear god why");

quartata

12:31 AM

Yeah that would probably just end in an infinite chain

Alex A.

That's what the answer-chaining tag is for

There's no reason it ever has to end

It'll just get hard to keep going after a while

quartata

Yeah eventually we'll deplete all the esolangs and have to start all over again

El'endia Starman

Explicitly state in the question that brand-new esolangs are allowed. Problem solved!

(Or created, depending on your perspective.)

quartata

Hmm

Lemme see if I could figure out a decent way to write this in the sandbox.....

I like the idea but I just don't know if it'll work out

El'endia Starman

!!!

What if we set up a ring of robbers?

As in, a few people (the robbers) secretly collaborate beforehand to devise several programs that are obfuscated and somehow interact with each other, and the cops have to bust the ring, so to speak.

The robbers' programs probably ought to go in the question, perhaps. Hmm. Now I'm not sure how this would work.

Oh, and to clarify, this is probably a very different idea from @quartata's.

quartata

12:38 AM

Can you edit comments?

Zach Gates

@quartata Up until 5 minutes after they are posted, yes.

quartata

OK I think I have kind of a rough draft

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Chain of Conspiracy Thanks to Calvin's Hobbies for the idea! This challenge will never end. That's a good start right? So essentially the idea behind this challenge is that I will post an obfuscated piece of code that outputs the language it was written in. If you figure out the language (for ...

Please let me know how horrible it is.

Not sure what to do about submissions that we just can't crack

Maybe after 7 days they have to reveal the language and the chain starts over?

OK I made an edit

I realized that I didn't want the chain seed to ouput the language it was written in

Cause if I use the language I plan on using it'll be super obvious

(It'll have a string that says it lol)

*output

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Chain of Conspiracy Thanks to Calvin's Hobbies for the idea! This challenge will never end. That's a good start right? So essentially the idea behind this challenge is that I will post an obfuscated piece of code that outputs "Hello World!". If you figure out the language (for sure), you will ...

quartata

silence

:(

Sp3000

quartat, are you doing a ><> FizzBuzz?

quartata

12:52 AM

?

Oh is there a fizzbuzz challenge?

Sp3000

21

Q: 1, 2, Fizz, 4, Buzz

Introduction In our recent effort to collect catalogues of shortest solutions for standard programming exercises, here is PPCG's first ever vanilla FizzBuzz challenge. If you wish to see other catalogue challenges, there is "Hello World!" and "Is this number a prime?". Challenge Write a progra...

code-golf

quartata

I wasn't planning on doing one

I remember seeing it earlier, saw that someone had already posted the gs2 answer and moved on :P

Sp3000

:/

quartata

(One byte in gs2, looks like someone else knows it though kek)

You can post a ><> answer, I don't mind

Sp3000

Hmm just thinking of what languages to do, that's all

quartata

12:53 AM

Perl

we need more perl answers here

Sp3000

There's already 2 XD

quartata

Rats

Hmmm

Ooh I know what you could do

Chef

(MAKE IT HAPPEN)

Geobits

I'm not trying to ruin it, I promise :D

I just can't see how it's supposed to work like this.

quartata

It's fine I'll figure it

Geobits

Also, just because I can't help myself when I see a terrible pun...

quartata

1:01 AM

OK I think I've got it

Geobits

I drink milk.... a quartata time.

3

quartata

Nice meme

In case anyone wanted to know, you pronounce it core-tah-tah

Zach Gates

Is it ok to post something like this?

Geobits

@quartata That's not nearly as fun to say.

quartata

Oh fine say it how you will

Don't come crying to me when some Italian lynches you

Geobits

1:04 AM

He'll have to wait in line. I'm fairly certain it's not the first foreign word I've butchered.

quartata

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Chain of Conspiracy Thanks to Calvin's Hobbies for the idea! This challenge will never end. That's a good start right? So essentially the idea behind this challenge is that I will post an obfuscated piece of code that outputs "Hello World!". If you figure out the language (for sure), you will ...

Geobits

@ZachGates I'm no python expert, but it looks like you've modified it enough that I doubt anyone's going to say anything.

quartata

OK IS IT BETTER

I think this time I've really got it

A new era in PPCG will begin

Zach Gates

@Geobits Awesome, thanks.

Sp3000

@ZachGates I'd probably wait for xnor to fix his personally - and in any case a ~80 byte fix seems like a lot more than I'd expect

Zach Gates

1:05 AM

@Sp3000 Ah, yeah. It took a lot more bytes than anticipated :/

Sp3000

Surely not 80 though... :/

Zach Gates

I'm going to turn my answer community wiki. That seems appropriate

Geobits

Hmm. Okay, one thing I'm not clear on. When exactly is a code cracked? As in, who can verify it if the latest one is always obfuscated in an unknown language?

Zach Gates

What?

Geobits

A posts a code. B posts a code that says "A", but A doesn't know that because it's obf. So then C posts a code that says "B", but neither A nor B know that because it's obf.

How can you tell if the answer saying it cracks yours is correct if it's obfuscated?

quartata

1:10 AM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Chain of Conspiracy Thanks to Calvin's Hobbies for the idea! This challenge will never end. That's a good start right? So essentially the idea behind this challenge is that I will post a chain number (more on this later) and an obfuscated piece of code that outputs "Hello World!". If you figur...

I made some more changes, including a system for answers we can't crack.

I think it's a little complicated but good overall.

Feedback pls

@Geobits Hmm

Well it kinda has to be an honor system

OH wait I see what you mean

Damn

It might have to be revealed right away then

Well actually

I think it works if we can just trust people to be absolutely certain

Like you can't post an answer if you didn't run the damn thing

We could probably use some moderator justice if we find out something wrong here

Geobits

I'd like to say we could, but I've seen too many answers here that just don't work right. Not intentionally, it just happens :)

Not like I ever see that at work :P

feersum

Yes, experience has shown that numerous people will post both invalid programs and invalid cracks on these challenges.

quartata

Dammit

People are problematic

We need a middle man

Geobits

Yea, if we could get around needing people to do this coding thing it'd be a lot more efficient.

quartata

I have an idea

So this is really weird

Zach Gates

1:14 AM

@Geobits The Machine from Person of Interest is able to modify its own code :D

quartata

But suppose we made a piece of code or a website or something where people can submit their cracks privately with the answer they cracked, the language they think it is, their answer and what language it is in and the piece of code can verify it and give them some sort of token to identify them

Then they post the token with the answer so people know it's legit

Geobits

@ZachGates I've never seen that, but I'm willing to bet lots of movie/tv machines can. I'd say Skynet does on a regular basis :)

quartata

It's getting too complicated is the problem

Cannot spell

^ Canot

^ Caret

1:16 AM

hey I was about to post that :P

quartata

But seriously could we do that?

I mean the problem is the program would have to have the interpreter

It would be so much easier if we could use a human for that

Geobits

It would have to be an interpreter for every bizarre language out there o.o

quartata

This is such a good idea I'm freaking not giving up until I figure this out

feersum

We need a little man who lives in a box or something.

quartata

1:17 AM

Exactly

Like a Mechanical Turk that's free

Geobits

R2D2?

feersum

And never makes mistakes.

Geobits

Oh, nvm.

quartata

The problem with just canvassing esolangs is that oftentimes esolangs articles don't have interpreters listed

Geobits

So you need a god in a box.

quartata

1:18 AM

Basically

Darn darn darn

OK I THOUGHT OF SOMETHING

So we already have it so that people can't crack answers that cracked theirs

SO

Wait

Doorknob

I'm probably missing something (I think I've only read part of the discussion), but why not just have crackers comment first to verify the language? Then if they're right, they get exclusive rights to post the next answer

quartata

SE doesn't have PMing does it?

@quartata no, why?

@Geobits Ninja'd :O

1:20 AM

I was going to say have the cracker PM the language they wrote their answer in and the crackee can verify it's legit

Doorknob

oh wait, I'm bad at reading and didn't fully read the sandbox post

quartata

Yeah that's the problem

Geobits

@Doorknob I think the idea is so that not only is the language of the next one unknown, but so is the output.

feersum

It's common for people not to respond for several days, if ever.

Doorknob

yeah

2

quartata

1:21 AM

It's seems like such a little problem but mannnnnnnnn

*It

Doorknob

Ok, how about everyone posts a hash of what language their program is in?

The problem with that is bruteforce

Geobits

Press up to edit chat messages (for two minutes) :)

feersum

We should be able to crack it with other languages than the intended one though.

quartata

Exactly

Doorknob

right, that too

feersum

1:21 AM

That was a lot of the fun of TPLQ.

Doorknob

cough Foo cough

quartata

DAMMIT FOO

Doorknob

(To be fair, I think I was the first to crack an answer with Foo though >_<)

PhiNotPi

@AlexA. I'm still wrangling with my dual-boot thing

quartata

LYNCH THE FOOER

HATE THE FOO HATE THE FOOER

Alex A.

1:22 AM

@PhiNotPi What's going awry with it?

Geobits

@PhiNotPi Ouch, what happened?

quartata

@PhiNotPi oh noes

PhiNotPi

IS THIS A LYNCH PARTY???!!!!

Doorknob

:D hides

quartata

OK back on topic

Doorknob

1:23 AM

errr, that emoticon was meant to be D: not :D

Geobits

Lynch and party. Not two words you find together every day.

quartata

You can come out doorknob

Zach Gates

@Doorknob Are you sure?

quartata

We need you to help us out here

Doorknob

@ZachGates Pretty sure...

feersum

1:23 AM

:D:

2

Zach Gates

@Doorknob Hmm.. I'll take it into consideration.

Doorknob

ಠDಠ

PhiNotPi

My installation of elementary OS (based on Ubuntu) freezes on boot.

Geobits

Needs less ice element, more fire.

quartata

Damn dag nabit damnit

►

PhiNotPi

1:24 AM

The elementaryos.se question I asked about it: elementaryos.stackexchange.com/questions/2158/…

Zach Gates

@Geobits Everything Changed When the Fire Nation Attacked

2

Doorknob

I've got to do homework now, but this is definitely an interesting problem that I'll think about @quartata :)

quartata

Kewl

PhiNotPi

My Windows works fine, I'm currently typing from the installation on my live flash drive.

quartata

I'mma keep thinking about it too

Geobits

1:25 AM

Oh wow, I didn't know there was a stack for that.

feersum

Ew, tech support site.

Geobits

It's all about perspective. Better than a tech support phone line or chatbot :P

PhiNotPi

Jul 24 at 1:43, by PhiNotPi

Imperative... Functional… Object-Oriented... Symbolic. Long ago, the four programming paradigms lived together in harmony. Then everything changed when the Golfing Languages attacked. Only the Geobits, master of all four paradigms, could stop them. But when the world needed him most, he vanished.

Sp3000

@Doorknob I was trying to restrain myself :(

quartata

Hmm lemme see if I have enough rep to put a bounty on our problem here

I only have 150 which probably isn't enough to motivate anyone rly

Sp3000

1:29 AM

Don't worry, I've tried 500 and that hasn't been enough to motivate sometimes :P

Geobits

Need some rep? Here's 500 for ya. All you have to do is crack it :D

Zach Gates

50 on one of my questions and no answers since ;-;

@Geobits but I don't know Java D: damn

quartata

I'm really good at Java... but that thing.... it scares me

Geobits

That certainly does make it a bit harder...

quartata

OK I thought of a solution

Geobits

1:32 AM

That was quick. I've had that bounty up for a long time.

quartata

So what you do is with each answer you post the hash of a file that says "This language is Foo" for instance

That way it can't be brute forced

Thoughts?

Then to verify you type out a file like that and compare hashes

Well wait I guess it still could be brute forced

feersum

I should change my itertools bounty to 500. That's the smallest rep that should be worth picking up off the street.

quartata

Dammit

Geobits

So. Grab the list from esolangs, create a file for every language. Done.

quartata

Exactly

We need something else

GOT IT

So instead of just printing out the solution

Programs print out the solution and a random number

And you post a hash of the output

Then if and only if you run it and get the output and hash it

Geobits

1:34 AM

How about instead of printing out the solution, they just give the solution, and make the output something else? It would solve the whole thing.

Sp3000

@feersum I was actually wondering about this question

quartata

But that takes out the whole chain part that made it cool

Geobits

That sorta ruins the "chain"ness

quartata

I think this hash solution works

I'll edit it and see

feersum

oh..well that's a very unpleasant question, hehe

quartata

1:37 AM

Oh but the problem there is that then you might not be able to crack it in other languages per se

feersum

Maybe I can try to call a standard loophole on it.

quartata

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Chain of Conspiracy Thanks to Calvin's Hobbies for the idea! This challenge will never end. That's a good start right? So essentially the idea behind this challenge is that I will post a chain number (more on this later) and an obfuscated piece of code that outputs "Hello World!". If you figur...

Added the hash thing

I don't really like it but it's the best I can think of

If I (or someone else) doesn't think of a better one by tomorrow night I'll just roll with it

Doorknob

18 mins ago, by feersum

We should be able to crack it with other languages than the intended one though.

Isn't that still a problem?

quartata

Yeah I know that's why I don't like it

Doorknob

so what's the point of the random number again?

quartata

1:40 AM

Make it not bruteforceable

Doorknob

Does the random number change between runs?

quartata

No

I mean a random constant number

Doorknob

> random constant

O_o

quartata

So that way the only way to get the hash is to run it

You know what I mean though

I'm sleepy deal with it

Doorknob

Wait, where does the randomness come from then?

quartata

1:42 AM

Changed it to number of your choice

The idea is that the only way to get a hash to compare is if you run it in somethin

Not just try every language name until it matches

Doorknob

Oh I get it now

quartata

This way you can also get some cool polyglots

They output a language and a number, but they don't match the hash!

The only problem I see with this is what about my initial answer

Doorknob

Wait, but this doesn't really solve the problem of people who don't test their output

quartata

Hmm

Doorknob

I mean, if you're not gonna test it to make sure the output is right in the first place, it's not like you're gonna go to the trouble of hashing something either

quartata

1:45 AM

Well people who don't test their output were a problem in TPLQ too right?

Doorknob

Except this one's a chaining thing

so a wrong answer ruins the whole chain

quartata

Hmm

Lemme think about that over a snack

Well, I think someone who doesn't go to trouble of testing output and hashing also isn't going to do the right format

So if we see one like that we can just delete/downvote into oblivion and pretend like it didn't happen

I think the only problem with this currently is what should I put for the hash for my answer see

Everyone knows my output is "Hello World!"

Maybe I could make it just simply something random, but still

feersum

@Sp3000 It's still shorter without itertools.

quartata

Can you adjust how much rep you need to post on a protected topic?

If so we could set it to like 50 to prevent some of that as well

feersum

@quartata I don't know what your proposed scheme is, but I can't imagine hashing is going to be helpful

quartata

1:55 AM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Chain of Conspiracy Thanks to Calvin's Hobbies for the idea! This challenge will never end. That's a good start right? So essentially the idea behind this challenge is that I will post a chain number (more on this later) and an obfuscated piece of code that outputs "Hello World!". If you figur...

Read how it is currently

The idea is that your output is language + a number of your choice and then you post a hash of that

feersum

> a MD5 hash of your output

quartata

yes?

feersum

Is the output something other than a language name? I can't tell

quartata

The output is the previous answer's language + number of choice

It should say

Sp3000