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1:05 AM
@undergroundmonorail Well, I for one rejected the edit. codegolf.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/10795
Censorship is evil.
I also agree with the other side that "f******" wasn't really necessary. But IMO that's the OPs decision. Since the usage was quite mild, self-deprecating, not aggressive towards anyone.
 
 
1 hour later…
vzn
2:29 AM
0
Q: Collatz Attack!

vznThis challenge is based on some new findings related to the Collatz conjecture and designed somewhat in the spirit of a collaborative polymath project. Solving the full conjecture is regarded as extremely difficult or maybe impossible by math/number theory experts, but this simpler task is quite ...

 
 
6 hours later…
8:34 AM
@Quincunx Heh. It would be fair if I would have the first place on one of the queues, because I have the second place on 5 of the 6 queues...
 
 
5 hours later…
1:14 PM
@Malachi: The room is quiet today, there's nothing to spy :P
 
lol
I just got to work and hit Join all. I normally just keep an eye on this chat for fun stuff that I can actually do occasionally when I am bored.
 
Yo
 
Yo @TheDoctor
 
What does the (program)Fox say?
 
The Fox says that you forgot an a :)
 
1:18 PM
Not any more
 
@TheDoctor damn it. been a long time since I have been rick rolled
 
hahah
 
@Malachi I can't believe I clicked it anyway
 
And now, my minions,
 
This post seems odd to me. Question is +7, and it has 8 answers. But the highest voted answer is +1. Just kinda odd.
There's even a comment on my answer saying "I think you've got this in the bag", yet not an upvote. I can't figure out why nobody seems to be voting on the answers here.
 
1:32 PM
Perhaps it is because people can't test the answer?
 
@Geobits When you floodfill, do you check for size 1 corridors?
I already upvoted, but just curious
 
I don't check specifically for them, just the largest number of spaces. A 1-width corridor with 25 spaces is still better than a 2-width corridor with only 15 spaces to move in. (This assumes the 2-width is otherwise blocked by a chokepoint, otherwise the flodd would escape it)
@ProgramFOX Maybe, but the tester is (now) python, so it shouldn't be too hard to work with. If it was still done in a VS project as before, I could see that argument being stronger.
It's just weird for 8 answerers to all not be upvoting any of the competition.
Maybe more votes will come in as the results get posted?
 
@Geobits Here is what I meant docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/…
It's an extreme example, but a simple floodfill will miss some better opportunities.
Oh, you are the red square
 
Change the permissions on that sheet :p
 
the black is open area
I just shared it... hand on lol
You'll go left and immediately cut off half of thesquares
Btw I don't use thechat feature on GD
 
1:47 PM
Yea, I knew it wouldn't be perfect. To check for every corner case would be a lot more effort.
I may add in some special cases if it turns out I need to.
 
I'm trying to think if the game is solvable
I mean with a normal computer
 
Your best bet would probably be some sort of min/max BFS.
But the branching factor along with the number of squares is pretty high
 
Game starts with 625 squares minus 2 for the players = 623 squares
 
For every move, you have up to 9 possibilities (3*3 for each player's move), except the first, where you have 16.
 
So its something like 9 ^ (623 / 2)?
That's an upper bound I guess. It doesn't account for when you only have 2 choices, and it doesn't account for players that immediately cut the map in half
 
1:52 PM
That sounds like a decent upper bound. I don't know how tight it is. The more the board fills up, the less moves you'll have available, so the 9 isn't constant.
Jinx
 
Lol
Well, even 10^50 won't fit into any language I know how to write with
 
Yea, an exhaustive search is definitely out.
At least toward the start. If you survive until there are a lot of walls down, it might be worth it.
 
Kind of like chess when the engine starts to see winning moves 14-15 deep
Near the end
 
Even Go engines have made good progress for the endgame, and the branching in that game is horrendous.
 
Do you both move at the same time for the walls challenge?
 
1:57 PM
Yes. If you move onto the same spot(or otherwise both hit a wall), it's some sort of tie.
I haven't looked at the tie rules much since they were added.
 
That's really unfortunate
Well, I take that back. It doesn't allow for a winning strategy
 
You could theoretically force a tie if you solved it (maybe).
If so, you could force a "not lose" situation and hope the enemy screws up.
 
It could be a rock paper scissors cycle thing though.
 
Wait, no.
 
I'm thinking some like (oversimplified) move A beats move B, move B beats move C, and move C beats move A.
 
2:03 PM
Possibly. You should write a O(n^m) search and find out :)
 
Sure. And all of you can lend me your computer so that I can write a TCP program to do distributed number crunching.
I think I know what I want to do for my next challenge
I used to play this tower defense game where you played against another player
Both of you had waves of creeps spawning increasingly larger
I think a program could much more efficiently win that game
But I think I have to learn a pathing algorithm first
 
2:18 PM
Most tower defense games (that I've seen) have limited paths that would be easy to graph. If you're talking about an open field it's a bit different, but pathing in general isn't too hard once you get your mind around it.
Especially if units are allowed to overlap. If they're all forced onto individual discrete spots, it's a bit more challenging to find a "group" path solution.
 
@Geobits The creeps can overlap. The towers can't. The field is open until a player clutters it with towers, and they generally "snap" together to avoid having holes
 
Hmm. Well, if each creep has a definite destination, it sounds like a basic A* would work fine.
 
Wait, I've done A* before. I guess I didn't realize it's application in pathing for games
Wait... do games actually use algorithms like Dijkstras and A*? I thought they were way more complex. How do you determine where the nodes are on an open field?
 
Yep, it's great for that, and was basically invented to solve that problem. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakey_the_Robot
Well, it depends. If your map is in discrete units it makes it easier. Each x,y pair can be a node, or break it up into chunks, etc.
Anything grid-like or graph-like works pretty well.
 
I guess I can make it discrete. It won't matter for the challengers, but it would make my job easier it sounds like.
 
2:30 PM
You can also use a specialized navigation mesh. See here, for example
 
I think I read that exact article a year or two ago
Major nodes on the map, minor nodes near every major node, and the rest is "line of sight"
Seems super tedious
 
Something like that. If your map isn't huge, you can probably get away with just one layer of nodes.
I used a basic A* on an 80x80 hex grid with multiple units for a roguelike and it was fine.
It got a bit slow if I changed the map size to 500x500, but I only did that to test/break it.
How big a map are we talking about?
 
Well, the original plan was a continuous field for the creeps but a "snap-to" grid for the towers that could fit about 50 towers on each side
Now I'm thinking 50 X 120 grid for both creeps and towers
 
How do the creeps move?
You don't need to shrink the map, there are better ways to do thing on larger maps.
 
They just kinda flow like water on the continuous field, but if we go with the grid plan, they "tick" around
At least that's how I'm assuming things should work
 
2:38 PM
@Rusher I'd assume you set your destination based on the algorithm, you don't just plop them there when it's done.
 
And how are they controlled. Does the player say "go to this spot"?
 
No the creeps just take the shortest path. Sorry, I didn't realize what you were asking
You can't control them
They come out of your side and go in the opponent's side
 
The shortest path to what? If there are multiple towers, there is one specific "goal"?
Ah.
 
Hey, hey. Guys. Hey guys. Guys. Hey. How did the three wise men find the baby Jesus?
4
 
Generally they walk through your maze unharmed, and enter your opponents range of towers and start getting shot at
 
2:40 PM
A*
4
 
wait someone star the second message
It needs to be in order
Thank you
Also, that was the worst
 
I know
It's so good
 
Okay, so say there is a wall of towers x units in front of the spot I'm trying to protect. Will the enemy walk straight to the wall, then go around, or will he aim for the corner to cut distance?
 
That might have to be my favourite joke. Last night I was explaining to a friend of mine (who isn't super into computers and stuff, but finds them interesting and wants to learn more) what search algorithms are, how they work, and a couple of the more popular ones specifically so I could tell her that joke. :)
 
The enemy will aim for the corner. Your allies will ALSO aim for the corner because they too have to get around your own wall
In other words, every wall you build in front of your entrance blocks both your enemies and your allies
If you were to momentarily destroy a segment, you might allow your allies across
You can also confuse the enemy creeps by constantly building and destroying to make them go left, then right, then left again
They have to keep reevaluating their path
 
2:45 PM
It seems you could just build a node map based on nothing but the towers, then. No need for discrete units for the creeps. For each contiguous tower area, put a node near each corner(at the minimum distance to prevent collision).
So if I add a tower by itself, it has four nodes surrounding it. If I add another tower "snapped" to it, there's still only four nodes.
The goal is a node, the start is a node. That should be it.
 
@Rusher From the two and a half minutes I've seen you talk about it, your game reminds me of this. It's a tower defense game where you set up your own side of the battlefield, but also you can spend money on extra creeps to try to get to your opponent
 
I think that's the game
 
Between the nodes only relies on movement speed. Keep each destination node for each unit unless the map changes or you reach your node.
 
I remember it being on Kongregate
 
Hm. s/[']s/ was/, apparently.
 
2:49 PM
Is it unethical to rebuild the game and put it on PPCG as a challenge if I credit them for the idea?
Do you think I should get permission to rebuild it?
 
I don't think it's unethical
 
My ethics class in college was pretty shitty. We didn't even cover reverse engineering
 
Unless you're talking about a full-on port, I don't see a problem.
 
I could have read the book but wow it was such a boring book
 
I mean, look at all the tetris/bejeweled clones out there.
They might be crap, but they're not unethical.
 
2:52 PM
1. Having a game as a challenge here is a very different experience than playing the game normally. Simply by saying "Instead of playing this game, write a program that plays the game" you change pretty much everything.

2. It's a challenge on PPCG I don't honestly think anyone will care
 
Who owns code written on Stack Exchange?
 
@Rusher Wait, does 'ethics' have a formal meaning here? I'm just thinking, like, "morally I feel that this is okay"
 
Morals are rooted in formal meaning anyway. The only reason I don't kill you is because I value my own life and thus I feel morally obligated to not kill you.
 
Also I'm pretty far away
 
And since everyone really feels the same way about that but a few people choose to ignore it, the law says no killing
 
2:54 PM
Any libertarians in the room?
 
But like, there are a lot of things in "ethics" as I think of them that could be subjective, so it surprised me that there was a course on it
 
Where are libertarians again? Non-conservative and non-what?
 
Unless it was in philosophy or something, but "We didn't even cover reverse engineering" makes me think it was tech-oriented specifically
 
Yea, personal and economic freedoms, etc.
The only problem I really have with most of them is that they try to take things too far in the name of freedom.
Of course, the same could be said of other ideologies :)
 
2:57 PM
@undergroundmonorail It was "Professional Ethics in Computer Science"
or something along those lines
 
Huh
Like 90% of what I do when I program is bruteforce Project Euler problems, I'm probably not exactly the kind of person who needs to worry about that kind of thing :P
 
The only thing I got out of that class was an introduction to ACM
@ProgramFOX Photoshopped
 
@Rusher No. It only works in Firefox, unfortunately.
 
@ProgramFOX Pretty convenient that it happened on the message that said 'Message with two timestamps'
 
3:02 PM
I have proof!
 
Photoshopped proof
 
Open Firefox and go to the Meta Stack Exchange sandbox.
 
I also have Firefox
 

 Sandbox

Formatting Sandbox
The latest message is the two time-stamp message.
@Rusher You can find the message there.
 
That's in firefox
 
3:05 PM
Well... I have a userscript installed that shows a timestamp on ALL messages. Wait, I'll post a link.
 
Perhaps your userscript is broken then
My ethics professor called Firefox FoxfFire
 
No, it is not. It are really two messages. One containing a Unicode Right-To-Left character and and the second one contains the text.
 
Oh, that makes sense
 
And this is the user script:
43
Q: SE Chat Modifications -- Keyboard navigation and commands for chat

Tim Stone Screenshot Use /command shortcuts to perform common chat tasks: See message history inline: Easily preview replied-to messages: And much, much more... About Legends tell of a prolific Meta Stack Overflow chatter who despised using their mouse above all things. In an effort to keep t...

 
So there's two messages in the same place, and the userscript shows both
 
3:07 PM
Both messages are shown, but the user script shows both timestamps.
So I have proof.
 
3:26 PM
@Rusher Do you see it now?
 
I believe you. I am too lazy to download a script to see it
 
I can also repeat it here by posting the two messages separately. First message here:
3
Now the second message.
The first message is U+202e and the second message is just any text.
 
 
2 hours later…
5:36 PM
I cant see #1
 
@TheDoctor That's because message #2 overlaps it (in Firefox).
That's why the userscript shows two timestamps on the same message.
 
6:23 PM
Won every match. Wasn't expecting that.
 
6:45 PM
@vzn you there?
I can't read this post at all. I just can't.
 
 
1 hour later…
8:16 PM
Is it bad that I almost want to vote to close questions that are "finished and will never be rejudged"? They lack a winning criteria at that point, in my opinion.
 
I'm not a fan of that, either, but I don't much see the point of closing, honestly. There are a few KotH competitions that are stated as "over", and several more that are "effectively" over (haven't been judged in years). People might not be looking for the checkmark; they might just want to post a clever solution they came up with later. I don't see a reason to deny that opportunity just to punish(?) the asker.
 
9:02 PM
It's definitely an exceptional case where challenges that can't be won continue to live. I guess there is no way to mark them as such except for writing it out in the challenge "We're done here."
I'd be happy if they were tagged as "completed", but then we'd have a tag floating around that is definitely a meta tag by any reasonable interpretation
 
Need some crowd input - What questions should a good challenge answer in an Introduction?
Right now I have
- Why is this challenge interesting?
- Did you create the challenge?
I'm writing a template that we can link new users to to say "Hey, we can't read your shit. Use our template." (in nicer words)
Got a star but need ideas :)
 
Input: yes. good ideas. how about: "Is the winning criterion objective? (or does it have one at all?)"
 
Ok. I might add that to a new section called "Questions to ask yourself when you are done writing."
 
10:03 PM
@ProgramFOX - i starred your U+202e comment; look --->>>>
Hi Malachi
 
8 hours ago, by undergroundmonorail
Hey, hey. Guys. Hey guys. Guys. Hey. How did the three wise men find the baby Jesus?
8 hours ago, by undergroundmonorail
A*
 
They are in the transcript
Why did you repeat them?
 
HAHAHAH
I don't know
in theory salon, Apr 8 at 20:28, by vzn
a very promising site as far as raw talent. some participants seem to be very advanced. some talented at young age. crowd is very populist and votes a lot. good teamwork. very active chat room. site seems to have untapped possibilities for crosspollination with cs.se/tcs.se sites.
(Talking about PPCG)
 
11:15 PM
Edit this into oblivion please meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/1511/18487
 
You don't really mean it?
 
11:35 PM
Done
 
11:47 PM
"There are some good code-trolling questions out there" <<-- many people (like me) disagree. — TheDoctor 10 mins ago
 

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