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Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
12:06 AM
2AM here, time to go to bed... That browser question is at -6 now, the Meta question really killed it...
 
user20683
@YannisRizos I think Stack Exchange should trigger "nuclear launch detected" any time a question with close votes ends up on meta SO though the blizzard royalties would be an issue
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
2:04 AM
Well, I'm insomniac! 1h of sleep and I'm back :)
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
2:25 AM
Argh! I absolutely hate pseudo answers on well defined valid & on topic questions. You know, all these answers that only peripherally touch the core question... Rep farming at its worst... Noone cares what your general opinions on the topic are, mate, if you can't answer the actual question.
 
user20683
@YannisRizos agreed
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@WorldEngineer The one I just spotted even had an upvote... It's not just that it doesn't answer the question, OP left a friendly comment and answerer responded with even more bs...
 
 
3 hours later…
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
5:46 AM
@Ubermensch you posted in the wrong room, please delete your messages from the Town Hall chat, and repost them here
 
Jarrod
Jarrod
hey @YannisRizos you there?
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@Jarrod I'm here
 
Jarrod
Jarrod
cool - i think you're 100% right on your response to the blog question i posted
we can keep spinning our wheels forever, or we can get our ducks in a row and get it off the ground
I also thought you did well in the town hall today - you've got my vote
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
That is essentially the basis of my nomination platform... We sure love to procrastinate...
@Jarrod Thanks...
 
Jarrod
Jarrod
yeah - I think P.SE still suffers from some pretty terrible perceptions
and I think most people still worry more about their Stackoverflow rep
than contributions here
@YannisRizos unfortunately, i think i've been one of the procrastinators - I was the one that was all hot to get the blog going back in September, but I got busy and let it fizzle out
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
5:59 AM
Well my SO rep is 1/10 of my rep here, so... :)
oops I went offline for a bit...
 
user2334
0
A: Let's Get The Blog Kicked Off

Mark TrappOkay, I just spoke with Rebecca Chernoff about the blog, and I have a game plan. Step 1: we need a point person This person will be in charge of coordinating the blog's direction: getting drafts in order, setting up the schedule, making sure everything is running smoothly, and communicating dir...

 
Jarrod
Jarrod
Yeah, same here
Awesome - Mark is definitely NOT one of the procrastinators meta.programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/2976/…
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
6:12 AM
@MarkTrapp Could you move that to the blog chat room, for documentation's sake?
 
Jarrod
Jarrod
@MarkTrapp @YannisRizos We should probably just move this whole discussion over there.
 
user2334
Sure, if I can remember how to move messages...
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@MarkTrapp Copy / paste broken for you? :P
 
user2334
Nah, there's a fancy dan mod interface for moving messages that I can never remember how to use
 
user2334
 
Jae
Jae
11:03 AM
@MarkTrapp: Is it too late to answer the "Town Hall Chat" questions?
 
user2334
@Jae I think you're still good; Tim Stone hasn't posted the digest yet
 
Jae
Jae
@MarkTrapp: Ok so how do I go about doing this? Do I just use the reply function on each question?
 
user2334
Yeah, exactly
 
Jae
Jae
@MarkTrapp: OK! Thanks!
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
11:22 AM
@MarkTrapp Can you guess what percentage of questions posted from Dec 1 to Dec 22 where closed (excluding dupes)?
 
user2334
For what purpose?
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@MarkTrapp Did some quick SEDE queries and the number seems extremely high...
65% to be exact...
from posts with creation date in dec.
abnormally high, I'm trying to figure out what I did wrong...
 
user2334
10
A: How to reconcile guidelines, community opinion and moderation

Mark TrappUpdate - October 20th, 2011 Current statistics: Total Questions: 13,440 Total Closed but not deleted: 1,321 Closed Percentage: 9.38% (▼ 7.56% from September 20th, ▼ 10.81% since this post was written) SE 2.0 Closed Percentage (no Trilogy): 5.36% (▼ 0.72%) Network Closed Percentage (w/Trilogy):...

 
user2334
It's a complete waste of time to do closure analysis because you don't have access to most of the data and we can't provide it to you
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@MarkTrapp I know, I know, just mindless fun...
 
user2334
11:29 AM
Our closure rate is ~10-15%, which is within 1 SD of the mean across the network
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
12.93 is our current closure rate
I'm just fooling around with SEDE, trying to get a grip of tsql with an interesting enough dataset...
I run a per month query, and got 65.53 for dec...
and that seems to be completely wrong...
 
user2334
It probably is
 
user2334
Astrology would be a more constructive use of one's time than to draw any conclusions from SEDE aggregate data
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
No conclusions here, I don't care about closure rate, I'm just fooling around with an interesting dataset... And thought you'd have a rough estimate of per month close rate.
 
 
3 hours later…
Rachel
Rachel
3:01 PM
@MarkTrapp I just want you to know, I may disagree with you on many issues, however I do think you're doing a great job as a moderator and with trying to keep the site in line with it's FAQ. Your meta participation is also impressive
It's not your fault I have a goal of changing the FAQ to match the site name, and that I campaign to make programmers.SE be about programmers, not just software development :)
 
cdeszaq
cdeszaq
Would a question along the lines of "is it better to run an external command or internalize the command within the application" (that wouldn't really have any associated code) be better for P.se or for SO?
 
Jarrod
Jarrod
3:17 PM
@cdeszaq P.SE
 
cdeszaq
cdeszaq
@Jarrod What is it about that sort of a question that makes P.SE a better fit? Is it the more "general" nature of the problem and lack of specific code, or is it something else?
 
Jarrod
Jarrod
@cdeszaq Its more of a subjective question that relates to software development in general and doesn't have a clear cut, "objective" answer
@cdeszaq If you were asking HOW you run an external command, or how to run it internally - there would be a clear cut, definable answer that - that would be for SO
 
cdeszaq
cdeszaq
@Jarrod That's a good rule of thumb...software development in general vs. specifically how to do something.
 
Steve Jackson
Steve Jackson
It sounds like a whiteboard question to me @cdeszaq. It needs to be more specific to be a good question though. I would lean towards P.se.
 
cdeszaq
cdeszaq
@SteveJackson Yeah, the actual question I have is more specific (to call a complex java-based command-line utility from my java app or to internalize that utility within the app)
 
user20683
3:37 PM
Programmers = questions I can explain to my mom
Stack Overflow = questions I can't
 
user20683
Math = questions I can't explain to myself
2
 
Jarrod
Jarrod
@WorldEngineer Not a bad way of looking at it.
 
Jon Purdy
Jon Purdy
Agreed. I love when people think I’m versed in math just because I’m a good programmer.
Symbolic logic and deductive reasoning? Bread and butter. Numbers? Hard.
 
Jarrod
Jarrod
I love math - I have great appreciation and fascination for its power. I'm just not any good at it.
fail(x) = any equation ever
 
Jon Purdy
Jon Purdy
I’m just bad at working with numbers specifically.
Spatial reasoning is my strong suit. I can look at a function and visualise the graph like nothing.
Ask me to add some prices and I fail.
 
Jarrod
Jarrod
3:47 PM
Yeah - not sure why the old world view of Programmers = Mathematicians is still around today
Its a stereotype I wish we could kick
 
Jon Purdy
Jon Purdy
I disagree. The best code I’ve ever seen was written by people who understood mathematical rigour.
Of course, some of the worst code I’ve ever seen was written by mathematicians, so…
Make of it what you will.
 
Rachel
Rachel
I think it's around because the same kind of logic can be used to understand mathematical problems and programming algorithms
 
Jarrod
Jarrod
@JonPurdy I think its two different skills sets - there may be some overlap in certain aspects, but I've known some brilliant mathematicians (my cousin is one) who is an utter, hopeless failure at coding
@Rachel That probably applies too
 
Jon Purdy
Jon Purdy
@Rachel Yes, insofar as theoretical CS can inform algorithm design, but I think it helps mostly in language design. Haskell is very “mathy” and it’s both powerful and eminently usable.
 
cdeszaq
cdeszaq
@Rachel That relationship is rather uni-directional though in many cases. Understanding math => understanding programming algorithms, but Understanding programming algorithms !=> understanding math.
 
Jon Purdy
Jon Purdy
3:53 PM
(Though the terminology is a bit off-putting to newcomers.)
@Jarrod They are different things, coding and math, but the best code is thoroughly tested, has strong contracts formulated about it, is amenable to formal reasoning, &c.
 
user20683
Proving algorithms is mathy though
 
user20683
that I learned the hard way
 
Rachel
Rachel
4:13 PM
Should this question be closed as off-topic on P.SE? programmers.stackexchange.com/q/132657/1130
It's closed as being too generic, however I disagree with that because the answer can only be given by another programmer
 
Jon Purdy
Jon Purdy
@Rachel I’ll vote to reopen. It seems like a fair question. “How do I do an exit interview?”
Although…
Perhaps it’s good where it is. As a general rule there is a bias toward closing questions that are not inherently programming-related. You could do an exit interview for any position, after all.
 
Andrew
Andrew
 
user20683
@Andrew I thought I answered that one. Was my answer insufficient?
 
user20683
or did I somehow miss it?
 
Andrew
Andrew
I didn't see your answer, or maybe I thought you were answering my other question.
 
user20683
4:22 PM
hmm
 
Andrew
Andrew
I know you answered my other question.
 
Jarrod
Jarrod
There were a lot of questions - some of which built on others
 
Rachel
Rachel
@JonPurdy My thought was that the questions you'd ask a contract developer about how to improve your development process would be different from questions you'd ask your contract cleaning company, and that only a programmer/developer would really know or find value in those sort of questions.
 
Jarrod
Jarrod
Its easy to overlook a few when all you're doing is scrolling through a chat transcript
 
user20683
@Andrew questioned answered, if my answer is insufficient let me know how I can improve it.
 
Michael K
Michael K
4:31 PM
@JonPurdy I think this one falls into the "All Careers" circle on the FAQ. If you limit it to just the programming environment topic, it becomes localized to that specific company.
 
user20683
@JonPurdy It's one of those weird borderline cases I alluded to where half of us think it's on topic and other half don't.
 
Jon Purdy
Jon Purdy
@WorldEngineer Agreed.
Oh, day in day out mod life.
 
Andrew
Andrew
4:50 PM
@WorldEngineer Cool... thanks!
@Jarrod Definitely.
 
 
4 hours later…
Rachel
Rachel
8:46 PM
Yay town hall digest has been posted! meta.programmers.stackexchange.com/q/2990/1130
@Maple_shaft Where are your answers? I was looking forward to reading them
 
user2334
9:02 PM
@Rachel That's not my goal at all: I'm sorry I haven't expressed that clearly enough in the past. The FAQ describes the character of the site: it's a summary of the scope of the site, not a law under which the site operates. The goal of a moderator is to guide the community to stick to the scope of the site.
 
user2334
I'm all for clarifying the FAQ to better match the scope of the site. If we changed "software development" to "programming" would that alleviate the problem? That would better match what's written in the Cooking.SE FAQ (and others), but it seems really minor to me
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
9:16 PM
@MarkTrapp Please no. Changing "software development" to "programming" would only make matters worse.
 
user2334
@ThomasOwens the site's name isn't going to change, so I'm all for suggestions that'll have the same force and effect as what's being presented that the site name change would do.
 
user2334
Still don't get what problem a site name change would magically solve, so I'm really at a loss as to offer alternatives
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@MarkTrapp It wouldn't magically solve anything at all, but it would be more consistant with other sites. "Game Development", "Cooking", "Code Review", "Cognitive Psychology". They are either areas of study or verbs. Programmers is a noun. Programmers isn't about programmers and their lives, but the FAQ says that...
That's really the only advantage of a name change would be consistency. Long-term impact would be minimal, I think. Would I rather have a different name? Yeah, I would. Would the world end if it doesn't happen? Hell no.
 
user2334
@ThomasOwens The FAQ doesn't say that at all. The FAQ specifically says questions about lifestyle are off-topic.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
I know. That's my point.
I mean, the FAQ clearly says that programmers isn't about programmers and their lives.
The only sites with names that are names with a group of people, but aren't about the people: Android Enthusiasts, Database Administrators, Webmasters, Skeptics, and Writers. That's 5 out of a total of 80 sites (under 7%).
 
user2334
9:27 PM
@ThomasOwens Nobody except the people who cling to NPR like grim death still believes that. There are other sites on the network that use the audience as their site name: Android Enthusiasts and Skeptics. Nobody seriously believes those sites are about the lifestyle of people who like Android or are skeptics
 
psr
psr
@MarkTrapp - "who cling to NPR like grim death"?
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@MarkTrapp I know that. You know that. But if you were a random person on the Internet who saw a QA site called Programmers, what would your first assumption be? It's for questions about Programmers.
I wonder if the other 5 sites have the same problem. I only read Android Enthusiasts sometimes and haven't seen it.
 
user2334
@ThomasOwens That's simply not true. There are 4 other sites on the network that demonstrably show that's not true.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@MarkTrapp Based on migration patterns from Stack Overflow, I think it is true. At least in that subset of the population.
 
Steve Jackson
Steve Jackson
DIY occasionally gets questions about hobby (do-it-yourself) projects which are prohibited in the FAQ and some of the other sites occasionally try to migrate those to DIY. It's hardly an epidemic though.
 
user2334
9:31 PM
@ThomasOwens They don't. The benefit they had is that they didn't start out as a joke site and allow dozens of users to build rep and ask questions under the assumption that what they did would be sanctioned for all time.
 
user2334
Not Programming Related – programmers.stackexchange.com

Launched Q&A site for expert programmers interested in discussions that are only indirectly related to programming.

 
psr
psr
Makes much more sense than "National Public Radio".
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@MarkTrapp That's also very true. My next question: Would a name change help (or would it have helped) remove that confusion and support the reinvention of the site?
Would a name change a year and a half ago, from Programmers to Software Development have mattered at all?
 
user2334
@ThomasOwens @annalear has on occasion talked about how NPR probably would've been better off shut down and a new site redefined in Area 51. SE has certainly learned their lesson over the last year or so and have been more proactive about shutting down untenable sites early
 
user2334
One issue that really kind of clouds everything and makes it hard to see eye to eye on is the internal perception problem that it's a lot worse than it actually is
 
user2334
9:36 PM
If it was as bad as people make it out to be on Meta P.SE, I have no doubt SE would've shut us down months ago
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
I don't think it's so much of an internal perception problem as in how some SO users see Programmers.
 
user2334
@ThomasOwens But that's not what this is about, is it? You've made mention here that it's Googlers or new users, and talked about how our FAQ is inconsistent
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
I see more problems with migrations (or people posting questions that begin "users on Stack Overflow suggested I come here") than I do with people asking bad questions here.
 
user2334
There's an easy fix for the SO problem: turn off the migration path
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@MarkTrapp I wasn't just referring to Googlers or new users, but also SO users who see Programmers on the migration path.
Anyone who just comes across the name might be confused. I would expect someone who finds us via Google to actually visit the site and learn what we're really about, and a name change might make it more obvious from a single search result. Someone migrating on SO might never actually visit the site.
 
user2334
9:40 PM
@ThomasOwens We have ~32% reject rate on 351 incoming SO questions in the last 90 days (so, 112 in the last 3 months, or a little over one a day). It's actually from August, when it was ~23% reject rate on 900 questions (207 in 3 months, or 2.3 a day)
 
user2334
People aren't complaining about one question a day being closed.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@MarkTrapp Very much yes. In fact, I'd just like to see all migration paths turned off. Either it's off-topic and it gets closed or it's not and it stays open. Don't let people who don't know about a community have the chance to move it. If it can be moved, let a mod do it.
@MarkTrapp It's not that the rate is a problem. It's the fact that people are voting to migrate without thinking.
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@ThomasOwens That has been raised and rejected on MSO quite a few times...
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
If you don't understand our community, why would you vote to migrate something to us? Or suggest that they ask the question here (because it seems like people who are told to ask someplace else will just blindly ask in the other place without thinking first).
 
user2334
@ThomasOwens Sure, and I'd love to get the reject number down to 0, one rejection every day is not exactly an epidemic
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
9:43 PM
@MarkTrapp It's not an epidemic. I just think it looks bad to see a question moved from SO then quickly closed here.
Just like I think it looks bad to see a lot of questions (and I don't have a percentage figure, so I don't know if it's actually problematic) closed by a single vote from a moderator (unless the question is unquestionably bad and inappropriate).
 
user2334
@ThomasOwens But surely seeing more bad, non-migration questions looks worse?
 
Karl Bielefeldt
Karl Bielefeldt
@ThomasOwens I think migration paths should be turned on only for people with a certain minimum rep on the site being migrated to.
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
@MarkTrapp It doesn't look good. It's hard to both clean up our mess and deal with bad incoming things.
 
user2334
@ThomasOwens If the question's bad, leaving it open is worse. It's a broken window. How many people close it is a parliamentary procedure only active users on SE care about. New users, who are the ones supposedly affected by this, have no idea what 5 close votes versus one close vote means
 
user2334
@ThomasOwens Sure, but we're talking one question a day. ~5-10 seconds of thought.
 
user2334
9:50 PM
What a lack of 5 close votes on questions do signify is the community doesn't particularly care about or want moderation; which is why moderators are here, to deal with things when the community can't or won't act. But it's definitely gotten much, much better in the last couple of months. Unilateral closings happen far less often than they did in the Summer or last Spring
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
That's very much true. I wonder why, in some cases, the community won't act. Is it just a lack of visibility? The thought that it should be allowed? Something else entirely?
 
user20683
@MarkTrapp too localized also seems to have dropped off the map
 
user2334
@ThomasOwens To be honest, I think it's just a changing population. For the longest time, we got lots of close vote flags on questions, but no close votes. As the people who flagged stuff gained rep, their flags turned into proper close votes
 
user2334
Newer users get it, older users generally don't.
 
user20683
There also seems to be a substantial population of older users who have vanished entirely
 
user2334
9:53 PM
And I think many of those older users have been secretly hoping for a return to NPR
 
user2334
@WorldEngineer Yeah, that too
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
Oh, please no absolutely not ever.
 
user20683
@ThomasOwens not even as an April Fools day treat/horror?
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
Did people actually like the very first days? It was fun for like...an hour. Then it was just mindnumbing.
 
user20683
@ThomasOwens I wasn't here for the first days but I'd assume it was similar to a slightly more intelligent 4chan for programming
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
9:55 PM
@WorldEngineer Pretty much...yeah.
 
user2334
It really went on longer than it should've due to lack of enforcement: didn't really get into massive cleanups of the old stuff until last Spring
 
user20683
@MarkTrapp I think the Stack Exchange's utilitarian direction has really annoyed some people
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
Speaking of clean-ups, when will Structured Clean Up begin? After the mods, sometime, I'm assumign?
 
user20683
I'm definitely not anti-fun by any means (watch my interactions in Gaming chat)
 
user2334
@ThomasOwens I wanted to give it 2 weeks for discussion: probably open it up right after the elections end to discuss with the new mods first. Don't see any major objections to starting asap
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
9:59 PM
3
Q: What's the psychology behind Trolling/Flaming?

zergylordFor those new to the internet, trolling is an activity were one person intentionally tries to upset other members of the same community, presumably for entertainment. This has been informally addressed in the media, normally positing that the anonymity of the internet gives rise to more extreme...

abnormal-psychology social-psychology internet
 
user2334
@WorldEngineer I think we look too much like Reddit or HN: people see a list of posts and assume "yay party!" and then get sad when they get shut down by the cold, iron fist of SE
 
user20683
@MarkTrapp we need a picture of joel as palpatine and jeff as vader
 
user2334
@YannisRizos Hm, seems like a very thin wrapper over Google. No real insights, just links
 
Thomas Owens
Thomas Owens
I was excited for Psychology. Not too thrilled with CogSci. Maybe because I don't care about academic research or the neuroscience side of things. I was looking for an applied psychology and sociology site. I wonder what's going to happen with them.
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@MarkTrapp Well CogSci.SE went public beta a few days ago, give it time...
@ThomasOwens The proposals were merged into CogSci... And it should be a good place for applied psychology questions
 
Anna Lear
Anna Lear
10:11 PM
I don't even know which specific messages I could possibly reply to here, but... :) I don't think changing the site's name would in any way prevent bad migrations. Every user who votes to migrate to us from SO sees the site name AND the brief description. If they ignore it now, they will ignore it later too.
Also, during my (albeit brief) time as an SO mod, I've seen some truly bizarre migration votes. I can only conclude that many people who vote to migrate from SO don't do it because they want to find a better home for the question. They do it because they want to get the question off of SO. It's further compounded by the fact that Programmers of today is effectively a subset of SO. Trying to get the SO audience to voluntarily migrate good conceptual software dev questions is difficult.
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@AnnaLear Well I think that's understandable that SOpedians would be reluctant to migrate good conceptual software dev questions to a less visible site, given the massive amount of crap they have to deal with daily. Still, not migrating off topic questions is abusing the system, and I hope the powers that be take notice and action soon. For our part, the only sensible action (imho) would be to strengthen ourselves and become an even stronger and visible community.
@AnnaLear (cont...) Cleaning our own crap first, dealing with our broken windows then, and worry about SO later...
 
Anna Lear
Anna Lear
@YannisRizos That to me seems to be the most sensible way to go. The only thing Programmers can control is, well, Programmers. :)
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@AnnaLear Yeap, from my very limited presence at SO I'm getting the feeling that SOpedians can't control SO... 12 mods for a community nearing 1 million users is extremely small.. We are 40k over here, and we really need the extra two mods...
 
Anna Lear
Anna Lear
Yeah, moderating SO is ... an experience. :) The flag volume is pretty up there.
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@AnnaLear And now that you are already here: Are you still interested in contributing to our blog? Is there a conflict with your new role?
 
Anna Lear
Anna Lear
10:27 PM
@YannisRizos I don't see why I couldn't contribute. We can repost my SCNA posts from meta so far and I can actually finish the series, too.
 
user2334
@YannisRizos To be fair, we only have two active mods on Programmers right now, compared to the normal 3 (or what seems to be 5, for larger sites)
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
@AnnaLear Ok then, in case you missed it, we are calling for volunteers to re-affirm their commitment
@MarkTrapp I think that's what I meant. We need the extra hands. 2/40K is still better than 12/1M
 
user2334
Yeah
 
Anna Lear
Anna Lear
@YannisRizos Sweet, thanks.
 
user2334
Speaking of facepalm migrations:
 
user2334
10:34 PM
0
Q: When will user-end Java 7 be released?

ghostsoldier23JDK 7 was released to us developers back in the summer of 2011, and the platform was supposed to go live to users that July. It's 2012 now (February) and the java.com recommended user version is still Java 6. I just read Oracle's statement that JDK6 will be at EOL in July. So... clearly they h...

java oracle release
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
10:45 PM
@MarkTrapp Well at least this one didn't make it through... Reading your quite entertaining answer now...
 

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