"I wouldn't call that racism, because the race isn't what is koveah the dislike, rather it is the innate traits of that particular group" doesn't make sense to me. Isn't racism precisely the belief that particular racial groups have particular innate traits? In general, this answer would be much more valuable if it would cite sources, even if they're just examples of relevant sources. Looking at the sources could prevent errors of imprecision like the one @DoubleAA suggests above.

@DoubleAA you have to look at it more generally, the Torah only mandates hate in specific cases, but not in others

@TRiG I find your comment to be severely lacking an understanding of nuance, and thus missing the essence of my point above

@TRiG no, nuance is the capability to understand that not all things are black and white, and that differentiation does not mean hate, I feel bad for a person who thinks that the only way to accept others is to make the world homogenous.

@TRiG please define racism

Mefaresh, I request and recommend that you refrain from personal attacks. This is a naturally charged issue, which deserves careful discussion. Without careful language and tone, the discussion is likely to degenerate into something less productive.

Mefaresh and @TRiG, the definition of "racist" that is at issue in this Q&A is specified (reasonably, IMO) in the question, so there's no point arguing about it.

Mefaresh, is the argument in your answer that the Torah believes in problems with certain cultures, which cause problems for people raised in those cultures, but have nothing to do with racial heredity? If so, I think that is potentially distinguishable from racism, as defined above, and I think you should edit your answer further to make that very clear.

@IsaacMoses yes exactly, i thought i made that clear

@IsaacMoses may i steal your construct: Torah believes in problems with certain cultures, which cause problems for people raised in those cultures, but have nothing to do with racial heredity?

i like the way you put it

@Mefaresh If that's an accurate characterization of your (RYK's) position, then by all means, be my guest.

first of all, i take offense at the notion that i am a rasict, as i pride myself on working to love all people and respect, including arabs, despite my residence in israel

@Mefaresh Uses of words like "innate" (literally "in-born") and "inherent" make it sound like you're talking about genetic issues.

@Mefaresh nobody said that you're a racist

@IsaacMoses yes i see that, what words do you suggest that can convey my point in place of inherent

@Mefaresh I'd have to see RYK inside

@IsaacMoses i felt that being that i presented a certain hashkafa (to which i ascribe to) and having it challenged as "nuanced racism" i felt i was being called racist, which to me is a serious claim (despite it being thrown all over the place nowadays)

@IsaacMoses i can take a picture of the peice to send to you, whats your email?

@Mefaresh The way you presented it made it sound like racism. The question at hand is whether Judaism is racist, so it's already the topic of discussion. If you present beliefs in the context of this discussion: 1) It's natural that whether they're racist or not will be debated, and 2) You really really ought to make sure to present them very clearly.

@Mefaresh I can't guarantee when I'll be able to read, comprehend, and write, but I'd be interested to take a look. There's an email address described in my profile

@Mefaresh You could also just upload the images into this chatroom.

@Mefaresh, according to RYK, if an Amaleiki is adopted at birth and raised in a nice ger toshav family, does he have Amaleiki disadvantages to overcome?

@IsaacMoses i don't know, he doesn't address amalek, but the idea seemingly with amalek is that their bad traits are so imbued (is that better?) that the only tikkun is m'chiye

@Mefaresh So some other nation with such disadvantages then.

@Mefaresh what is your source for "The Torah of course forbids racism," which directly addresses the question at hand?

hes talkin abou Canaan, "arur canaan, even avadim y'hiye l'achiv

@Mefaresh so if a Cana'ani baby is adopted at birth by a nice family, does he start life with Cana'ani traits to overcome?

Rav Yaakov assumes it axiomatically

that racism is forbidden according to the torah

ok i have the peice from rav yaakov

@Mefaresh The quote from Sanhedrin is very on-point

sorry this was a repeat

@Mefaresh I don't see a continuation of this paragraph

yeah i think i messed up, i got all mixed up

im sory

@IsaacMoses what are you referring to?

no i think i got everything

@Mefaresh RYK's source for his assertion (and therefore yours) that racism is assur is a Mishna in Sanhedrin

just what i posted as 3 should be switched with 4

AAHH YES YES

sorry

i thought you were commenting on a quote from sanhedrin i had made, now i understand

@IsaacMoses well it is Rav Yaakov :) he kinda knew all of shaw and poskim by the age of 22

@Mefaresh What does he mean by the last line of this one (your third and fourth images), that no one can join any other nation, like someone could convert into Judaism?

i was just flipping through it today, and i came across this piece, he really was a very broad person, who saw the whole picture

@IsaacMoses yes

@Mefaresh Why not?

meaning its through the zchus of kirvas hashem i.e.. receiving of the torah than engenders this greatness

@IsaacMoses i can't decide to become irish, or more more current i can't decide I'm black

@Mefaresh Why not?

whites have tried (vanilla ice?) and have been skewered

@Mefaresh What we're talking about is not skin color but patterns of behavior. Why can someone elect to join the Jewish nation and take on the patterns of behavior taught to us by our mesora from the Avot, but can't elect to join the Irish nation and take on their characteristic patterns of behavior?

In terms of metzi'ut we see this all the time, when someone immigrates to a new country, and their kids take on the behaviors of the new country.

And to my point before, would a baby born into the cursed nation of Cana'an but raised entirely as Irish and therefore exhibiting entirely Irish behavior patterns be subject to the curse of Cana'an or not?

I disagree. The host country which is takes on the immigrants usually is very non specific. No Jew in the 1900s felt forced to convert to Protestant

I don't know.

@Mefaresh Forget forced. There are New Yorkers of every possible ethic origin who talk and act like New Yorkers.

If the answer to my Cana'ani baby question is "yes, he's still cursed," then that belief, even if it's correct and holy, is, in fact, racist. If not, then it's not.

Yes but what does being new York mean? Nothing. Remember we are talking about a specific Semitic culture with their own pantheon of gods

@Mefaresh Have you been to the US?

Well that cant fit at all with the position of Rav Yakov

Are you joking? Of course I'm from Silver Spring

What binds new yorkers as new yorkers outside of bad driving being rude and other trivial escapades. That's not culture

@Mefaresh Being rude isn't culture??

True tribal cultures ended with the Greeks and the Romans having swallowed the earlier cultures

No. A combined mutual history is a culture.

@Mefaresh If a kid is born in China to Chinese parents and raised by New Yorkers, is his cultural history any different from that of any other New Yorker?

Well I don't know I retract saying that being rude is not a culture

For that's Rav yaakov whole point

@Mefaresh I'm sayin'!

I need to think about more. I'm not a sociologist

The way it stands my answer presents Rav Yaakov as a viable response. How it shtims I will leave to for another day

Well, anyway, I think part of what RYK is saying is tzarich 'iyun (and I mean that literally, not pejoratively). However, I think you could answer the question with just the Mishna in Sanhedrin and RYK's take on it ...

Lmaaseh this RY is a very good mareh amakom

@Mefaresh 100% on-point, no question about that

Great thank you

... and possibly add something about how a nation can be cursed or blessed, but only in the sense that they maintain patterns of behavior handed down through the tradition of their forebears. However, if this is not what RYK really means, then it wouldn't be good to say that it is

If you would like the honor to edit my answer as you see fit please be my guest.

@Mefaresh Can't right now; sorry.

Being on a tiny kindle fire isn't conducive to these types of things

... and like I said, I still tzarich 'iyun about what he really means about national identity

Dealing with texts and translations ..oy

Thank you for the help

@Mefaresh My pleasure. Thanks for the source. Very interesting.

@Mefaresh Oh! I think he means that racist nations don't allow in-conversion, but Am Yisrael does, so we can't be racist.

I think, therefore, that he doesn't say anything to contradict the idea that a Cana'ani (by birth) baby, brought up 100% Irish, would be behaviorally Irish and would have nothing to do with the curse of Cana'an.

It's a shame that HebrewBooks doesn't have El"Y on Chumash. Searching for author = "קמנצקי, יעקב" yields only some volumes of El"Y on Talmud.

Make that all the volumes on Talmud.

Yeah I see that in it now. Read it wrong

@IsaacMoses isn't what he means that any nation or race that believes in גזענית wouldn't allow you to join them? He isn't saying you couldn't join any culture or nation. He is saying, a nation that is גזענית won't allow anyone to join, as opposed to the Jewish nation which does.

@IsaacMoses Just caught up here. I see you already figured it out.

@yEz Took me a while, but yes.

@IsaacMoses@yEz great were all on the same page

Literally

I'm not particularly objecting, but I'm certainly curious to know why comments of mine were deleted. It leaves the conversation somewhat one-sided.