The Whiteboard

12:04 AM

Hey chat! So I'm considering majoring in CS at my uni, but I was talking in the CS chat and they made it sound like not all CS skills are equally sought or desired. One guy Raphael iterated that computer science was more academia and that skills that are useful for resumes aren't exactly the domain of CS. What say you guys?

whatsisname

what do you want to do with your life

Stan Shunpike

Well, I don't want to lock myself into an academic career only.

MetaFight

Unless you're studying latin or philosophy you'll be ok.

Stan Shunpike

Yeah I'm not lolol

whatsisname

what do you want to do with your life

"i don't want to blah" does not answer that question

user20683

12:09 AM

@StanShunpike actually Philosophy is fine too with a portfolio

Stan Shunpike

I would like to do something that utilizes my math skills and preferably involves people. I don't know exactly what that is. I am an econ major and I am thinking of adding CS. some of the requirements overlap so I have time to decide.

user20683

logical reasoning and being broadly read will give you a leg up

user20683

@StanShunpike industrial engineering

MetaFight

Sorry, I meant Latin or Art History.

whatsisname

how do you think adding CS will benefit you

user20683

12:10 AM

@MetaFight Art history is fine for VG design

user20683

:P

whatsisname

what do you think you'll learn in that program of benefit that you couldn't learn on your own?

user20683

Latin is probably okay for work on the Papal Mainframe

MetaFight

@WorldEngineer I actually lolled.

Stan Shunpike

@whatsisname Well, certainly maybe to think more like a computer scientist. Being around other students and professors I think would enrich the experience. That's one reason I want to do it. Another reason is that its easier to broaden my knowledge base learning from others. SE does that but I would think taking courses could also help with this.

@whatsisname I certainly don't need to do it to learn programming languages.

Not that I know anything about that either but I have tried some of them and I pick them up fine on my own. I just haven't had cause to use such skills for anything yet.

That's something else I think I need. A reason to use programming skills would make me develop much faster.

Just doing basic forms of coding I find boring.

Like I made a one time pad in python

that was fun

user20683

12:14 AM

@StanShunpike take a machine learning class

user20683

the prereqs often aren't that steep

whatsisname

so rather than spend a bunch of money taking classes that risk sucking the enjoyment out of learning the material

just write some programs to solve some things that interest you in your econ work

Stan Shunpike

That's smart

I hadn't thought of that. But

whatsisname

how far along are you through your econ major

Stan Shunpike

Early

That's why I am asknig questions

whatsisname

12:16 AM

early as in what

how many semesters have you completed

Stan Shunpike

beginning 2nd year

just finished the intro honors course

user20683

I'd go straight math with a cs or stats concentration

user20683

but that's me

Stan Shunpike

The intro CS course teaches Haskell

that's one reason why I started asking questions

That's not java, c or c++ which is the languages I heard mentioned in the CS chat as most used outside academia

whatsisname

if you haven't "had cause to use such skills for anything" I am not sure what benefit you'll get from adding CS to your workload

user20683

12:19 AM

Haskell will blow your mind and the lessons there translate over to other things

user20683

it's a very unusual language

whatsisname

i think you'd be better off doing more stats work

Stan Shunpike

@WorldEngineer How so?

whatsisname

and learn more programming on the side

user20683

@StanShunpike hmm, how to explain this

Stan Shunpike

12:20 AM

@whatsisname that's very possible. I am considering that as well

not in addition

user20683

it turns most of the assumptions of regular programming on their heads

user20683

like there aren't explicit places where you repeat things in the conventional sense

user20683

wait, you've done python

user20683

okay

Stan Shunpike

I did a basic experiment with it. I set up the GHCi compiler and set up this data structure that allowed me to like type in "three" and it would say S(S(S(Zero)))

whatsisname

12:22 AM

@WorldEngineer: but it's not going to address the problem of breaking down some rambling about a real world problem into something that can be made for a computer to execute, which in my opinion is the most important programming skill

user20683

@whatsisname yes and no, I found that learning to think functionally helped with that and my toying with Haskell was a big part of that

user20683

even if I'd not use it for most projects

Stan Shunpike

@whatsisname That is exactly the kind of thing I want more practice in.

user20683

@StanShunpike Project Euler is somewhat impractical but solidly mathy and can be done with whatever language you feel like

user20683

Think Stats is a book (online for free legally) that teaches basic statistics with Python

Stan Shunpike

12:26 AM

@WorldEngineer Wow, I have never heard of Project Euler. Neat idea.

user20683

@StanShunpike pro tip, code up a prime sieve as "Project 0"

user20683

both a useful tool and an object lesson in reusable software

Stan Shunpike

Nice, will do :D

user20683

@StanShunpike R is basically the lengua franca for statistical programming so keep that in mind if you go that route

Stan Shunpike

@WorldEngineer that's good to know too.

why are java, c, and c++ so common? I know a bit about C's history so I can understand where the languages come from and why they might be prevalent. But what prevents say a new language from coming in and dominating and leading to turn over? These have been around for a while

user20683

12:33 AM

@StanShunpike it really depends on what you want to do down the line

user20683

@StanShunpike lots of factors

user20683

existing code base

user20683

c is common in school because it's simple and close to the machine

user20683

good for teaching how computers work

user20683

and UNIX/Linux are written in it

user20683

12:34 AM

C++ is common because it's the defactor standard for AAA gaming and other real time applications where complexity is necessary but speed is what makes or breaks

user20683

Java is common as a replacement for a number of old languages and runs all over the place

user20683

C# is common because Windows

user20683

newer languages gaining footholds tend to be in the webspace

user20683

Python, Ruby, Scala, Clojure, Javascript

Stan Shunpike

Yeah! That's something I noticed sorta tacitly.

wrong word

lets see um

unconsciously

there we go

they just come up whenever i see webrelated stuff

like when i tried out html

which is like the easiest language ever

user20683

12:40 AM

@StanShunpike HTML has some gotchas but yes

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT this is one place .NET really rocks socks; their PE format and runtime assembly resolution is truly something to behold

A good assembly/module system like that really goes a long way towards making the whole process of developing so much nicer

user20683

@JimmyHoffa the smug smalltalk advantage :P

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer SmallTalk definitely had a smart idea but the portability/upgradability of an everythings-in-my-image approach aren't quite perfect. I really need to dig into the OCaml module system sometime, people tout it as being so great

user20683

@JimmyHoffa so I hear too

Jimmy Hoffa

though for outright development, yes SmallTalk's idea is pretty flawless. It's the deployment and dependency multi-tenancy that get's tricky.

user114359

12:52 AM

@durron597 I agree, I was tired and don't have the rep to do that on SO yet. That is partly why I posted that answer here.

user20683

mostly I miss a platform that doesn't arbitrarily not let me upgrade my OS

user20683

@JimmyHoffa I kind of want to do research into dependent types and 3d graphics

Telastyn

the main problem with not getting a CS degree is it will be more difficult getting a programming job out of college, skills or not.

user20683

@Telastyn this is truth

maple_shaft

0

Q: Help edit the Wiki Answer: Canonical Book on Agile

This post is a call to arms to higher rep users on Programmers that have the ability to view deleted answers. I merged a couple questions together asking for Agile references on request and took the top voted answer and locked it as a Wiki. I deleted the rest but there is a bunch of good conten...

discussion

@MichaelT Hopefully this is what you had in mind

whatsisname

1:18 AM

I think a lot of people would be better served with a EE or CE degree rather than CS

Telastyn

in what regard? If they want to be programmers, screwing around with algorithms is going to be more helpful than screwing around with breadboards.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn true, but you don't use much of the CS stuff in your career, and with EE/CE you'll have more career opportunities on top of all the CS ones

Telastyn

"on top of" seems strong.

there are a number of jobs that require the formal CS training that you'd be missing out on.

probably less than the ones you get with EE

whatsisname

very few

you can learn a lot of algorithm stuff on your own on a computer

learning the physical side of modern computers requires a lot of very expensive equipment

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn very small number, and because so few CS degreed folks can't even do that type of work anyway, they're usually happy to give the chance to EE/CE. If everyone with a CS degree could really sit down and do CS, everyone would be working at google, rather than like 1% of CS folks

whatsisname

1:24 AM

that you have virtually free access to in a EE program

Telastyn

and you can learn a lot of EE stuff on your own with some radio shack parts.

user55340

@maple_shaft yep. The other option that we should consider is using tag wikis.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn I find that claim to be a bit suspect

Telastyn

shrug

I am of the largely uneducated opinion that mucking about with hardware teaches you next to nothing about being a good programmer.

whatsisname

learning engineering teaches you how to think

it's similar to how learning high-level math is critical to being a good programmer, even if all you are doing is writing CRUD apps, because it is the analytical mind that makes everything possible

Telastyn

1:31 AM

and learning math/CS doesn't?

whatsisname

learning engineering rather than CS gives you a better mind for practical skills that are more lucrative in industry

Telastyn

such as?

whatsisname

the skill of taking someone's rambling problem and breaking that down to something that can be performed by a machine

Telastyn

so I was an aeronautical engineering major, and almost nowhere were we taught that.

whatsisname

i think someone that can understand a software project from the "java programming" level all the way down to the transistors is capable of more than someone who can not

Jimmy Hoffa

1:34 AM

@Telastyn I agree. But CS doesn't necessarily do a better job of it; and for what you do need to know for it a degree isn't necessary. Though most undegreed coders truly are pretty awful regardless of what anyone will tell you about them being "more passionate" or whatever other reasons they use to say self-taught = better

user20683

@whatsisname provided they don't get stuck at the transistor level

Telastyn

there were labs: "build a machine to collect 5 ping pong balls, at these positions using a machine powered only by rubber bands" but 2 a year. Certainly not enough to build that sort of skill.

whatsisname

@JimmyHoffa: of course, most degreed coders are pretty awful too

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn but now you can fly right? That's just cool. Do you ever just fly over your neighborhood at night because fuck birds?

user20683

Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap

Telastyn

1:36 AM

naw. Scared of heights and I can't build shit with my hands.

whatsisname

obviously my position is heavily biased by my personal experience and observations

Jimmy Hoffa

@whatsisname absolutely, can't say I've worked with enough undegreed ones to have a comparable sample for seeing if the ratio is different, but my gut feeling from the undegreed folk I have worked with is they are mostly all talk and when it gets down to it turn into tutorial-gobbling copypasta chefs, more so than the folks with degrees I've worked with

user20683

@JimmyHoffa let's take me as an example. I tend to design things abstractly and then figure out what code I need to make my design go

Telastyn

sure. Java -> transistors is more capable, but you need to know algorithms and data structures to get that full range. And in my experience, that end of the range is more useful knowledge in making quality software than the hardware end.

because almost nobody is going to have the full range, with any degree.

whatsisname

in my experience where the degree vs no degree separation is most meaningful, is that the degreed folks are a bit more cognizant of what they do and don't know

user20683

1:39 AM

@whatsisname I would say this is very true

whatsisname

there are a million tools available to humanity, but each of us only has a handful of them rattling around in our heads

the degree gives you a better idea of what all those tools are, and which ones you have in your head

I obviously couldn't write a java JVM and design a computer and everything off the top of my head, but I have a good idea of what I know, and what I don't and will have to look up

Jimmy Hoffa

@whatsisname and then you join the job force and realize pshaw there's only one tool, The Object, and it's used to make Java, AND NOTHING ELSE IS REAL.

user20683

@JimmyHoffa that's why all the methods should be virtual...duh

Jimmy Hoffa

@whatsisname you don't know how to fly for instance, @Telastyn has you beat there, if he could get over the vertigo he'd just open his window every night and wander straight out into the airy seas above while us peasants watch reality tv (did you see how much weight Timmy lost last week?? Crazy!!)

whatsisname

I actually do have a pretty rudimentary flying skill

user20683

1:43 AM

@JimmyHoffa and I can start cults :P

whatsisname

so that's not a good example :p

user20683

I've done a ton of time in flight sims true to my side of the "pie"

whatsisname

I was going to be a navy pilot, but got kicked out of the program for medical reasons

Jimmy Hoffa

@whatsisname "[I] have a pretty rudimentary flying skill" just conjures images of someone jumping, farting, and flapping their way down the sidewalk

Telastyn

yeah, my two years of aero eng never got to the aero part.

Jimmy Hoffa

1:46 AM

@whatsisname angry humanoid unibrows don't medically qualify?

user20683

@Telastyn MATLAB and pain?

user55340

@maple_shaft btw, if you lock the answer too - I can't edit it.

whatsisname

@WorldEngineer: more like simulink and pain

Telastyn

only a little matlab. I liked those courses, because I could program. Should've taken the hint then.

whatsisname

it truly frightens me to know there are missiles and other weapons systems programmed exclusively with simulink

user55340

1:47 AM

user20683

@Telastyn I took an image processing course

Jimmy Hoffa

My dad always wanted me to be a pilot because it was his dream. Lots of people love the idea and think it's cool. I have never been able to come up with any sense that it's even remotely interesting or fun. Looks boring as shit and tedious. The plane goes in the sky, great, cars go on the ground and boats go in water, none of these things seems more special than the other to me shrug.

user20683

homework was theoretically in matlab

user20683

I did it in python, the TA never noticed

whatsisname

@JimmyHoffa: have you ever driven a fast car or a big boat ?

user20683

1:48 AM

A fighter plane is one thing, an airliner is a very different animal

user55340

@whatsisname ever look at the pay for things like Columbia Bar pilot? (thats big boat category)

whatsisname

harbor pilots make lots of cashmoney

user55340

Maritime pilot

A pilot is a mariner who manoeuvres ships through dangerous or congested waters, such as harbors or river mouths, and completes the berthing / unberthing operation of the ships by controlling the ship's manoeuvrability directly and the tugs and shore linesmen through a radio. Pilots are expert shiphandlers who possess detailed knowledge of local waterways. They are transported by high speed pilot boats or helicopter from shore to an inbound ship and from an outbound ship back ashore. Most ports have compulsory pilotage. Legally, the master has full responsibility for safe navigation of his vessel...

Jimmy Hoffa

@whatsisname fast car yes, still don't get it.

user55340

> Columbia River bar pilots earn about US$180,000 per year.

whatsisname

1:50 AM

@JimmyHoffa: well, there is something about operating large vehicles that has some sort of inherent enjoyment to it for some people

and airplanes are one of the more exotic and therefore most appealing

those harbor pilot job openings are pretty infrequent

user20683

@MichaelT isn't the mouth of the Columbia basically a morass of sandbars?

user55340

@WorldEngineer Yep.

Jimmy Hoffa

> Columbia River bar pilots rarely see the sunshine from their cockpit, working on average 36 hour shifts. Most common cause of death for ex columbia river bar pilot is by exhaustion. Second most common cause, pelican assault. - An unknown error has occurred

user55340

user20683

@JimmyHoffa yes, the error is called attack by pelican

user55340

1:53 AM

Saw a program on the pilots of the San Francisco Bay... taking a container ship up to Sacramento.

user55340

whatsisname

of course being the captain of a ship that needs a pilot when coming to harbor is usually a pretty lucrative gig as well

Jimmy Hoffa

@whatsisname oh I know, that's my point- most everyone thinks that stuff's really great and enjoyable. I just don't, I take it as a blessing because it's really hard and expensive to get into the position to do it

user55340

That little sliver under the 'S' - yea, thats the area that from the picture above.

user55340

1:54 AM

They've got clearance of inches on each side of the ship.

user55340

And of they bump wrong or too hard, they breach a levee.

whatsisname

@JimmyHoffa: I occasionally wonder what my life would be right now had I stayed in the program but became a SWO or something instead of aviation

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT so software engineers aren't the only ones implementing terribly dangerous and bad designs!

user55340

@JimmyHoffa Nope. Incidentally, this gets into a lesser known part of the water problems in California. You've got to keep enough water in the river for the container ships to get up there... or you've got to ship the stuff to the port of Oakland.

user20683

@MichaelT as I recall that part of California is bone dry and 110+ in the summer

user55340

1:57 AM

Thing is, I5 (major thoroughfaire of Cali) to Oakland isn't a small trek.

Jimmy Hoffa

@whatsisname I occasionally wonder what my life would be if I actually could tolerate classes and went to college, if I could stand the environment/culture/discipline I'd probably have been able to make myself rather highly educated..

whatsisname

you don't need a degree to actually be highly educated, you just have to be able to read

user55340

The degree is proof of "I can do something that spans multiple years and meet the satisfaction of a number of people that I did what I was told to do." -- this is actually very important for someone without any other experience.

user55340

However, once you have the experience and projects under your belt, the "I did this 20 years ago" isn't as important.

user55340

The advantage of a college degree is mostly in the jr. developer positions where you are competing for them with others who have similar (none or little) experience.

whatsisname

2:03 AM

yeah

and with that, it's time for me to head home

catch ya'll later

user55340

Beyond that, it can be helpful for quickly recognizing certain problems and making design decisions based on drilled in information. Linked List? or Array List? Why can't you insert a null into a TreeSet? Here's a variant of the Traveling Salesman - can we make it go faster?

Jimmy Hoffa

@whatsisname no, being educated means...you were educated... not the same thing as being intelligent/capable/knowledgeable. Highly educated people have all kinds of interesting opportunities to effect things through their entrenchment in the educational apparatus. I study and learn plenty, but I'll never be able to do hard research with a group of well-learned peers. Hell having a group of well-learned peers inside the educational apparatus may be just as hard as outside for all I know

user55340

However, this information doesn't require academia to understand and realize. Programming puzzles and the like can sufficiently get there.

user55340

@JimmyHoffa one of the guys I went to school with, who later worked on a high performance computing cluster software (Condor) was an art major.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT see, opportunities abound for people willing to attain advancement in those places. My opportunities pretty much begin and end at designing-and-implementing-software-for-businesses/people

Telastyn

2:08 AM

and crazy entrepreneur.

user55340

(he became a "build your own major art major" after he failed calc twice... just had trouble with the formal math - had a good intuitive understanding of it, but couldn't get past that... so he did a "computer graphics art major" and got it past the undergrad advisor - take a few classes in art and most in CS)

user55340

This is what he looked like back in the day...

user20683

@MichaelT he looks familiar

user55340

I think he's in AI research now in Minnesota.

Telastyn

lots of robots at the U

user55340

2:12 AM

> Researcher at Smart Information Flow Technologies (SIFT)

Telastyn

my understanding is that crazy entrepreneurs pretty much all go eyeballs deep in debt, regardless of other costs.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn which is reasonable if you don't rely on medical facilities opening their doors for you to stay alive

Telastyn

aren't they required to?

anyways, sorry to dwell.

user55340

Its an issue of "working at place that has nice medical insurance" vs "having to buy your own because your company of 5 can't get a good group discount"

Jimmy Hoffa

@Telastyn yes! isn't it great how people get utterly fucked because everyone believes what you just said! It's literally true, but the devil's in the details... doctors won't touch my wife or kid because the rarity/risk level of their condition, so they have to see specialists - as many with serious issues do. And while in emergency situations hospitals are required to treat people...nothing says high-paid specialists or even general practitioners have to let anyone through the door

Telastyn

2:17 AM

nod

Jimmy Hoffa

If my wife or kid had the emergency event their disease is known for, the ER would let them come right in and die. Many people need preventive measures, not waiting until they are literally critical

The devil is in the details. It's illegal to turn customers away for medical conditions right? But no day cares take children with medical issues outside of a small set of well-known highly-charitably-funded conditions, so we could never get my kid into day-care; they weren't discriminating, they just didn't have the liability insurance to handle such. But wait, we have social security and disability for that right? 2+ year waiting list to get accepted for children.

maple_shaft

@MichaelT Are you not able to edit the answer?

I thought Wiki Lock on the answer allows for editing

Telastyn

makes sense

user55340

@maple_shaft Wiki lock on question prevents new answers. Don't think it should be on the answer

Jimmy Hoffa

Talk about voters only thinking of themselves, the adults don't have such a waiting list. By the time kids are off the list they've just missed out on 2 years of services and likely aren't even eligible for many anymore because they're older. But wait, there's more! Here they incentivize you not to get on the waiting list because if you do, you're ineligible for the measley local county services while you're on the list.

maple_shaft

2:23 AM

@MichaelT Can you try a simple edit real quick?

user55340

See this one for an example of a wiki lock

user55340

1

Q: Help me construct a list of best approaches for new C and C++ developers

Not specific code writing practices. Please also include reasoning. My start: use GCC or Clang gcc because it is unchallenged in the amount of static checking it can do (both against standards and general errors) clang cause it has such pretty and meaningful error messages when compiling C ...

c++ c

user55340

@maple_shaft edit is grayed out.

maple_shaft

Ok i fixed it

you were right sorry

user55340

Might want to clear the "long answer" mod message too.

maple_shaft

2:24 AM

@JimmyHoffa I am sorry about your wife and kid with health problems

I have been dealing with panic attacks for the last year and a half over my wifes back issues

Jimmy Hoffa

@maple_shaft meh, I'm not, they're the shit. Be sorry about our fucking worthless medical system that no one realizes how totally fucked it is until it's shiving them in the bank account

maple_shaft

@JimmyHoffa Its a feature, not a bug

I hope you aren't in money troubles because of that... why do we allow this to happen each other in this country

Telastyn

monkeyspheres.

Jimmy Hoffa

So we had the choice of: Get full disability benefits that would help my kid get into daycares and schools that will deal with disabilities and having all his medical costs helped out by all that tax money I have to pay anyway 2 years later, or get him the eating/speech/physical therapy services he needs now from the county and just throw the pile of bills out when they show up, as well as getting no day care services or otherwise.

The worst part is with genetic conditions like this, the kid's a lot more work and the parent is having troubles as well from their own issue already.

maple_shaft

One thing I have learned is that if you don't have health, you have nothing anyway. People make the right choice to throw money at it now if it will result in better outcomes

I hope that collections aren't giving you a hard time

2 years is absurd

THESE ARE OUR CHILDREN!

Jimmy Hoffa

2:31 AM

@maple_shaft been sued twice and had one garnishment, I've literally filled 30 gallon trashbags with bills to throw out. I don't let it bother me ever since I got the house; that was the only thing I wanted that required me to have any sort of credit history, and now that I have it and they can't take it, they can all blow me with their purposefully-screwed up billing practices

maple_shaft

Children should have UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!!!!!

Jimmy Hoffa

one doctor visit: 20 separate bills, they aren't allowed to combine them, and if you ignore them eventually insurance will pay half of them but you don't know which half so you're a sucker if you pay any of them, meanwhile insurance is supposed to pay almost all of them.

maple_shaft

Jesus christ!

What kind of awful insurance plan do you have?

Jimmy Hoffa

when people say "I had a medical bill but I just called the insurance company and hassled with them a grip of times and eventually they covered me!" are talking about a single solitary bill they got for one thing, not bills they get weekly

maple_shaft

I have a deductible of $2,500 for my family, and $5,000 OOP max for the year

no lifetime max

80% coinsurance after deductible

Jimmy Hoffa

2:35 AM

@maple_shaft and if you ever tried to use it completely over the course of numerous visits you'd find out how easily they squirrel out. Is that deductible include coinsurance? does that max for the year include the deductible? They show simple numbers to hide the complex twisty ways they mess people up. Nobody realizes until you actually try to use it seriously.

maple_shaft

I met that shit before March from all of my wifes medical bills and physical therapy

Telastyn

I have something like that, but only for in-network MDs, which specialists probably avoid to get paid more.

maple_shaft

ahhh thats probably what is getting Jimmy

Jimmy Hoffa

if insurance doesn't pay in time, the service provider will send it to collections, insurance will never pay collectors and the service provider is obligated to the collector not to accept money from the insurance so then it's up to you to provide insurance with evidence of the validity of the collection, pay it and get reimbursed yourself manually. For each and every bill they won't combine.

maple_shaft

Specialists probably have no rules if they are out of network

Jimmy Hoffa

2:37 AM

@maple_shaft nah, honestly I've had a variety of different insurances and always choose the expensive all-network one because literally; normal doctors will (have) take one look at my wife/kid and say they won't take them on as patients, because they need specialists

I can't be locked to a network etc

the PPOs 'n shit with 80% (had one with 90%) coverage, usually deductible for family has been 1500-3000 depending on the job

maple_shaft

@JimmyHoffa I dont even have a choice to NOT be locked to a network. With ACA they are forced to take on a lot of sick people they used to reject now, so they are trying to make money through this network scam

Jimmy Hoffa

@maple_shaft I make jobs show me their benefit details before I accept a position because if they don't have an open access plan with in and out of network (and specifically a university hospital in-network because that's where all the specialists are anyway), I'll turn them down. I had one job offer for a company with $900/month insurance premiums and turned them down because of it.

@maple_shaft :/ she was in a car accident right?

maple_shaft

@jimmyHoffa I was in a car accident, but I am ok now. She was hurt at work

Jimmy Hoffa

oh

workman's comp picking it up?

maple_shaft

They picked it up initially but they weaseled out of the long term effects that permanently have damaged her because of a previous diagnosis about Degenerative Disc Disease

The thing is that DDD is such a highly variable disease that it could be a minor annoyance or a dehabilitating disability

for her it was just a minor little thing that would just get slightly more annoying over the rest of her life

Jimmy Hoffa

2:45 AM

Shitty :/

maple_shaft

Things are getting better though overall I think

of all the doctors and procedures, I really think what helped her most dramatically is the PT

Jimmy Hoffa

Yeah, my wife's done a lot of PT and it always does have some of the best outcomes of anything

maple_shaft

strengthening muscles to better carry weight and posture

hell I started doing some of her exercises and what back pain I had went away like 95%

user55340

@maple_shaft heh - gbjbaanb accidentally posted the same thing in there twice.

user55340

20

A: Is there a canonical book on Agile?

Is there a canonical book? There is the agile manifesto, but for a canonical book? No. There are lots of books out there. Specific book recommendations: Agile Software Development, Principles, Patterns, and Practices by Robert C. Martin Agile Software Development, Principles, Patterns, an...

user55340

2:47 AM

You might want to CW that post.

user55340

(and delete the comments)

user55340

I am not up to (its ~15 min before I head to bed) lookup all of the books listed in programmers.stackexchange.com/a/64050/40980

maple_shaft

@MichaelT I made the changes you suggested thank you

user55340

If we're going to have book lists, wiki locks are less of a blight upon the eye than the score of answers, half of which are not even enough for an amazon review.

user55340

I understand the great canonical renaming... but the thing is the answer to most of them is "no" and then you get the list of books. programmers.stackexchange.com/…

maple_shaft

2:54 AM

@MichaelT Why I don't do more Wiki Answer locks than Historical Locks is kind of selfish

it comes down to time

Wiki Answers require a lot of time to build and make great

user55340

@maple_shaft and most of the time, they don't have the necessary backing here to actually make them work.

user55340

1

Q: Help me construct a list of best approaches for new C and C++ developers

Not specific code writing practices. Please also include reasoning. My start: use GCC or Clang gcc because it is unchallenged in the amount of static checking it can do (both against standards and general errors) clang cause it has such pretty and meaningful error messages when compiling C ...

c++ c

user55340

Look at the history of the answer.

maple_shaft

Historical Locks are kind of like... yeah I should delete this... but ... people will rage quit if I dont

user55340

Most of the people who would rage quit if you delete it rather than historical lock it have already quit.

user55340

2:57 AM

Furthermore, they haven't shown any desire to help maintain even that material.

user55340

I believe we should focus our efforts on the things that will ultimately be maintained rather than the posts that people 4 years ago weren't down voting and deleting based on a vision of NPR.

user41796

@durron597 - Yes, thanks for capturing my reviews when I was sitting at 11111. Your chat comment is what "allowed" me to hit the review queue today. Have been slammed at work and have lots of good things going on with the kids this week. Ergo, little time for Progs. :-)

maple_shaft

Well then maybe I just dont want to see HackerNews or Reddit link to, " Java vs. C# DEATH BATTLE!!!1one" with 80 gazziliion views 5 years ago then when you delete it get yet another "Programmers SUCKS!!!" Reddit circle jerk

user55340

The thing is the people who are saying that are the ones that didn't want to try to make it great when it could have been what they wanted to see it be that.

user55340

Moderating is more than just up voting everything and asking about cartoons in the past year.

user55340

3:03 AM

There are sites out there for such material - Programmers didn't grow that way when given the chance. We are great now. Producing good and thoughtful design and architecture questions which get non-crap answers.

maple_shaft

I agree

but we can always be better

user55340

And we actively clean up material that isn't up to the quality. Reddit and HN users like to pretend they aren't moderated but forget the work that it takes to keep the site on the path that it is.

user55340

We can indeed be better - and providing useful history for those who find it and try to emulate the past is important.

user55340

@MichaelT You should close some other questions then. I saw a few similar ones that are open and with answers (not answering what I want though) and thats really misleading. Cheers. — Bren 10 hours ago

user55340

This standard is really inconsistently held up. I just got my question put "on hold" but there are lots like it that are very similar, "I need a learning resource for my special situation". Its actually very inconsiderate of peoples' time to not be consistent with this as people take the time to ask these questions and then just get them removed despite others existing that are so similar. I've seen at least one that is marked as a duplicate so they are even getting attention of moderators. — Bren 10 hours ago

user55340

3:06 AM

By keeping these around (and we do continue to need to find and close them - though FWIW, Bren didn't actually point out any that are open) we have the same problem SO has with the double standard of "old posts not held to the same standard as today"

user55340

You find no end of people complaining about it on MSO - "why can't I ask those questions that people got +500 on back in '09 anymore?"

Jimmy Hoffa

3:25 AM

@maple_shaft there's a really simple solution to this problem, never visit Reddit. Or HackerNews. I've never been able to care about aggregators so I vote it's an easy solution.

next time you feel like reading something on reddit or hackernews, just google something technical and read the first well-written piece you come across instead. Much more fulfilling. And filling, ugh I'm full.

@MichaelT there's a path for those sites? I thought the path was "We built a wall! Free tape over there...I'm taking a nap...wonder what will be on the wall when I wake up..."

user55340

@JimmyHoffa some subreddits are very strictly moderated. Earthporn (really nice pictures) will delete any post that has a road in it.

Jimmy Hoffa

@MichaelT roads just too smutty for earthpornographers huh? They got standards I guess..

> Earthpornographer: Just look at the mountains on that one! Ah no, there's a road; someone's been there already! Gah, the fantasy is ruined!

user55340

reddit.com/r/EarthPorn/wiki/…

user55340

@JimmyHoffa actually... yes. They do that.

user55340

> Images that have human made objects in them are generally not allowed in EarthPorn. However, if they are very small and unnoticeable then we will sometimes let them slide.

user55340

3:34 AM

This one caused some controversy (was accepted):

user55340

The thing is that /r/programmers and /r/java and the like have moderators too - though they're less noticeable (mostly spam killing). And they are about fostering discussion.

Jimmy Hoffa

yeesh, they're going to give Gaia body dysmorphic disorder

user55340

So posts that are widely popular tend to get the green light on reddit.

user55340

Which is why there's such a culture clash between reddit and SE at times - reddit is all about flash in the pan popularity. That they can find old posts here that were popular (and still appear to be so - even though they aren't) makes them sad when they are deleted.

Jimmy Hoffa

3:40 AM

I wonder how much I could cross-post earthporn in programmers by adding random technical details before they realized I was just terraforming their subreddit... "This photo was processed using a well-known photo dithering algorithm detailed here (link)"..."This photo shows an algorithmically significant contrast level"..."This photo has failed all attempts at solar-detection using the Heimlich algorithm on all used big endian machines"...

user55340

heh.

user55340

I belief most "XYZ Porn" subreddits are safe for work... though its not something to test there.

Jimmy Hoffa

programmers porn; naked literals: string name = Betsy;

user55340

@JimmyHoffa reddit.com/r/bookporn (SFW)

user55340

Its got things like this:

user55340

3:44 AM

user55340

(note: that bit on the left... "with greetings from..." part... thats hand written.

Duga

4:06 AM

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it belongs to programmers.stackexchange.com — Rosdi Kasim just now

durron597

@MichaelT Where is that cliff?

Jimmy Hoffa

Haha! It's too late for me to spend time on that because I need to hit the sack! Didn't snipe me this time!

(I really hope I don't see that on my screen when I get into work tomorrow, I'll be sorely tempted to try and make sense of it...)

MetaFight

7:41 AM

SPOILER DO NOT READ: circle = 1, square = 4, triangle = 3. On-top-of -> multiply, contain -> to-the-power-of. problem is: (3*4)^1 + 4^3 + (3^1)^4 = 12 + 64 + 81 = 157

Duga

8:47 AM

While being about development, I think your question is not suited for StackOverflow. You may have better luck at the Programmers SE, don't forget to read their help center. — Kyll 39 secs ago

gnat

9:15 AM

@gnat My apologies. I understood career advice was not off-topic (meta.stackexchange.com/a/98685/133173), but I guess that's changed since I last looked. — Relequestual 9 mins ago

^^^ referred question at MSE looks like a broken window, would be nice to... patch it somehow. Granted it's old and has only 700 views but still

> Programmers.SE is the place on the network where you can ask career development questions under certain preconditions that ChrisF mentioned in his answer...

more generally, it would be helpful to "introduce discipline" to career site-rec questions at MSE, probably pick / make a canonical and close the rest as dupes - including re-closing from wrong reasons (that one referred n comment above closed as "Too Localized", WTF)

Duga

SO is probably not the best place to ask this. try cs.stackexchange.com or programmers.stackexchange.com. — Will Ness 39 secs ago

Duga

9:49 AM

it belongs on programmers.stackexchange.com — Will Ness 13 secs ago

MetaFight

theguardian.com/sport/video/2015/jul/08/…

Duga

10:20 AM

Perhaps try: programmers.stackexchange.com — jme11 59 secs ago

gnat

^^^ quite a pity that asker removed their question before I could comment...

@jme11 please consider abstaining of giving re-posting advice on questions that are very poor fit for Programmers and tend to be quickly voted down and closed over there, see meta.programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/6483/… Recommended reading: What goes on Programmers.SE? A guide for Stack Overflow — gnat 1 min ago

Duga

10:48 AM

Problem is that SO is really for concrete programming questions. This is something more for another stack exchange - maybe the "Programmers Stack Exchange". They have a number of related questions in there already. Check it out: programmers.stackexchange.com — Mike Wise 14 secs ago

Duga

12:27 PM

while off-topic here, this question may be appropriate for programmers.se — C8H10N4O2 45 secs ago

@C8H10N4O2 it is not appropriate on programmers.se. — MetaFight 51 secs ago

durron597

1:25 PM

@MichaelT I think the problem with that Bran guy is that we haven't yet STCIed the books tag.

Which, by the way, has over a 4:1 ratio of all questions : open questions

So this has 4 reopen votes:

75

Q: Is testable code better code?

I'm attempting to get into the habit of writing unit tests regularly with my code, but I've read that first it's important to write testable code. This question touches on SOLID principles of writing testable code, but I want to know if those design principles are beneficial (or at least not harm...

design unit-testing testing tdd

@gnat @GlenH7 @MichaelT @Snowman can you explain to me why that question is a duplicate?

André

Both relate to the code quality ( better code : stable ) IMO

durron597

"better" is not the same thing as "more stable"

> The author points to this as bad code because it produces the data (the time) it uses internally, thus making it difficult to test. To me, though, it seems like overkill to pass in the time as an argument. At some point the value needs to be initialized, and why not closest to consumption?

What does that have to do with stability?

André

1:48 PM

This questions is asking if writing testable code lead to a better code, as in his definition of better is a verifiable code/functions.

> Plus, the purpose of the method in my mind is to return some value based on the current time, by making it a parameter you imply that this purpose can/should be changed. This, and other questions, lead me to wonder if testable code was synonymous with "better" code.

The other question is asking for studies if a verifiable, tested code is better, more stable, thus at the core, same thing. This question that was closed is asking for personal experiences, other one is asking for studies. I rather keep the older one and close the bikeshedding one

user41796

@durron597 I went with primarily opinion based, IIRC

André

But well, that's just my opinion

user41796

Had ratcheted up 13 answers, boodles of comments, and seemed more like a rant in disguise than anything else

durron597

Well, it's open now. Why did you vote to reopen @Telastyn ?

user55340

@durron597 with his constraint of asking for anecdotes it is instead too broad or opinion.

durron597

1:52 PM

Yeah, I don't agree that it's a duplicate, but his edit certainly made it worse.

Telastyn

because I think it's an important, useful question that should have consistent expert opinion answers.

Thomas Owens

Case insensitive string replacement in Java is harder than it should be. Finding a case insensitive target string in a larger string and replacing it with a specified string should be one or two lines or code, tops.

user41796

@ThomasOwens maintaining case is the challenge

user41796

because people want abXde to still be abCde when c is swapped for x and not be abcde

user55340

Look also at size of comments and that there are some mod comment to chat notifications

Thomas Owens

1:54 PM

@GlenH7 I want the replacement to maintain case. For example, if the target string to replace is "aaa" and the replacement is "bbb", I want to look for "AAA", "aaa", "AaA", "aaA" and replace any of those with "bbb".

André

can't you add the flag (?i)

user41796

@ThomasOwens regex should be able to do that easily enough

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 I want the exact opposite of that behavior right now.

user55340

regex.

Thomas Owens

That's what I thought, but adding (?i) wasn't helping much...I wonder if it's because it's file paths and can contain \ and /.

So something is being escaped and breaking.

user41796