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jozefg
jozefg
4:06 AM
I have to teach a presentation on C++ in a few days, I wonder if i just talk about Haskell how long it'll take people to catch on and leave..
 
user20683
4:25 AM
@Arc676 You'll generally get better response out of the Objective-C chatroom over on SO
 
user41796
2:15 PM
@jozefg Here are some thoughts to help with that (and get away with it!) msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/jj553512.aspx and msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh780559.aspx and msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/cc163659.aspx. I haven't read all of those; I have only started the first. But they may be useful in your case.
 
user41796
2:38 PM
@gnat You know you're doing something right when people mistake you for part of the StackExchange AI algorithms
2
 
enderland
enderland
@GlenH7 mistake? I'm pretty sure @gnat should change his name to Jane
 
gnat
gnat
@GlenH7 who told you I am not?
 
user41796
@gnat then they ought to borrow some of your algorithms and use them in the review queue audit questions.
 
gnat
gnat
@GlenH7 they already do, although maybe against their will...
15
A: Bring a "human factor" into review audit composition/selection

gnatWhile there is no "officially implemented" solution for this, one can use whatever means are at their disposal now in order to bring the "human factor" to audits selection. When you spot a slippery audit, go straight to the "item" it uses and do the action opposite to audit direction. If you f...

 
user41796
2:57 PM
@gnat A lot of the time, I end up doing the same thing. And I hate the cognitive dissonance of "looks good" when I just voted to close.
 
user41796
@MichaelT - nostalgia calling. Although I must admit I never played this one.
 
user41796
0
Q: The Inglish parser (for The Hobbit 1982)

Jordan ReiterWas fascinated to read about the text adventure game The Hobbit which featured an incredibly robust parser called "Inglish": ...Inglish allowed one to type advanced sentences such as "ask Gandalf about the curious map then take sword and kill troll with it". The parser was complex and intuiti...

history game-development parsing
 
gnat
gnat
@GlenH7 so, you also mostly do stuff from outside of the queue? to me, it just typically doesn't suffice for thorough evaluation
 
user55340
@GlenH7 @gnat failed the Turing Test?
 
user41796
@gnat not always. Some stuff is blatantly wrong and needs to go like resource requests. In other cases, I'll hold off from a vote to close or whatever based upon the answers that are in place. For example, it could be a wrong-headed question that has an epic answer.
 
user55340
3:07 PM
Oh, btw I tossed a bunch of delete votes on up voted closed questions with no answers last night if either of you two want to follow up on 'em.
 
user41796
And I sometimes want to see how others are reacting to the question. Sometimes it's a marginal question and I'll hold off on doing anything if others haven't voted. In other cases, I'll see a marginal question piling up close votes and I'll anchor the close with mine. (Yep, lemming effect but I'll own the label)
 
user41796
@MichaelT I'll roll through that today. Or I may hit the delete queue query you've cobbled.
 
user55340
(Oh, read about Undo's flagging comments... @GlenH7, you've got a bit to catch up on him. When he goes comment flagging, its on the order of several hundred.)
 
gnat
gnat
free spam flags, here and at SO...
-2
A: Best practices for web page styling with CSS?

user109081Want to create your own website on Wordpress themes and want to hire an wordpress agency for your website than i suggest you the One Mega Workers .. http://www.megawebpackage.com Wordpress Agency Wordpress Themes

-2
A: WP Twenty Twelve Header Image

user109081Want to create your own website on Wordpress themes and want to hire an wordpress agency for your website than i suggest you the One Mega Workers ..

 
user55340
@prob No, not that. It's an obsolete comment sting. I've been successfully whacking several hundred every day. — Undo 11 hours ago
 
user41796
3:10 PM
@MichaelT I have to pace myself. Looking at the underbelly of the site can get discouraging. And I want my primary focus to be on adding high quality content.
 
user41796
What's the search to find stuck migrated questions so I can vote to delete on them?
 
user55340
You mean flag to delete because they are locked?
 
gnat
gnat
@GlenH7 well in my experience resource request questions too often carry a cloud of link-only answers - that's why I prefer to go out of the queue and check...
in The Water Cooler, Oct 3 at 16:24, by gnat
@RhysW side effect / additional motivation for this was when Yannis taught me to look into questions that "invite" crappy answers. Turned out that very often, positive score crappy answer just reflects equally crappy question, worth closing and deletion. When you see "here's the link" crap answer sitting at respectable +5, scroll to the top and typically there's "gimme link" crap question sitting right there, waiting for your vote
 
user41796
@MichaelT I guess. I recall a conversation the other day where you said a number of questions were showing as migrated but they really weren't due to a rejection (?) on the receiving site or something.
 
user55340
@GlenH7 Ahh, that was migrated here and then closed, but the stub was left here in a locked state. programmers.stackexchange.com/…
 
user55340
3:13 PM
Its a matter of cleaning up those questions.
 
user55340
Its either a delete vote or a flag for delete.
 
user41796
@MichaelT okay, that's what I'll keep working on today then
 
user55340
Correction - forgot the migrated:no -- programmers.stackexchange.com/…
 
user41796
As much as I complain about Community, I gotta admit the clean-up it does is nice. That query used to return 4 pages of results, now it's only 3.
 
user55340
Ever look at the recently deleted list?
 
user55340
3:19 PM
At the moment, everything deleted 12 hours ago was a Community cleanup.
 
user41796
@MichaelT Not anymore if the list updates realtime. :-)
 
user55340
@GlenH7 It is a realtime update. I just looked at it... its the 12h ago block.
 
user55340
 
user41796
@MichaelT It's not keeping up with me then....
 
user55340
The community nightly cleanup.
 
user55340
3:22 PM
@GlenH7 I blame cacheing.
 
user41796
poof. And there go all of my delete votes today
 
enderland
enderland
deletes @GlenH7
2
 
user41796
(sometimes it's fun to be a room owner)
 
enderland
enderland
3:38 PM
I've yet to really find many times it's fun, what am I missing
 
user41796
@enderland I enjoy pinning comments
 
enderland
enderland
Ahhh. Someone here is really pin-happy compared to other rooms, that's for sure ;)
 
user41796
All of the room owners here are pin happy. Which makes it interesting to try and guess who actually placed the pin
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@enderland Also viewing edit histories is fun sometimes too
 
enderland
enderland
ok I can't get rid of that ping. it goes away then keeps coming back. I wonder if I can delete @JimmyHoffa too. deletes @JimmyHoffa
woah. what the heck.
 
user41796
3:44 PM
any comment you add in chat clears your pings, afaik
 
enderland
enderland
... that's why I added the second comment (because the ping came BACK). though I'm safely away from pings now
 
user41796
@enderland that happens when someone edits their comment. You get pinged again and again and again
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 :)
 
enderland
enderland
This message has been edited 9 times - history
 
user41796
oh, and room owners can see the history on messages, including removed ones
 
user41796
3:47 PM
which makes it great when a few of us want to rant about things but not subject the rest of the group to it
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
I can't wait for winter to start, this is crap it should have snowed by now
 
enderland
enderland
yeah especially since pinging and then deleting is an OCD curiousity trigger
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa You know you love them
 
user41796
@enderland an edit tag + comment about weather is a dead-giveaway for this room too
 
user41796
and the last really cool thing I can think of is that you can star your own comments by pinning & unpinning them.
 
enderland
enderland
3:51 PM
yeah that's nice for sure. can people normally not see history on messages? I forget if this is room owner or not
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@enderland Can you see the history of a message in here?
 
enderland
enderland
@JimmyHoffa yes
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
ooo
can you see history on this message?
 
enderland
enderland
I didn't catch any exceptions @JimmyHoffa
correct
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@enderland You could or couldnt' see message history there?
 
enderland
enderland
3:53 PM
enderland, try this one

I didn't catch any exceptions @JimmyHoffa
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
oh.
 
enderland
enderland
lol. I'm making a joke (obviously rather poorly). You said "try this one" and I did, and didn't catch any exception (because I saw it)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
curious. Didn't know that was public domain
 
enderland
enderland
I didn't think so either, actually
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Screw it, just burn her!
 
user41796
3:59 PM
@JimmyHoffa or @MichaelT - would you hit the suggested edit review queue & reject the ones for AOP. They are missing attribution.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 ? You sure the attribution wasn't just a secondary edit?
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa No, they put the attribution in the tag wiki but not in the excerpt
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
I see one edit that's just a wikipedia link, I've seen this before where the queue presents the revisions out of order and so you reject one and then the next edit after it is the attribution
oh I see
 
user41796
so they tried to provide the attribution, but it's in the wrong place. The excerpt & tag wiki need to be able to stand alone
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 The tag wiki edit I see is attribution
oh nevermind
Got my reject
stupid edit reviews lole
they're always so obvious because upon any inspection at all you rapidly realize "Wtf? This is just a gibberish edit ???"
 
user41796
4:03 PM
yeah, I think those are only there to catch robo reviewers
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Total gibberish
I wish engineers were largely above group think... but alas, there are so damn many beliefs out there which are just naively believed and repeated without any real analysis beyond "Huh, that sounds about right" when they hear other engineers say it... Just floating about our collective community with too few saying "Hey, wait... but..." and too many saying "Well DUH, everyone knows that" as if that's proper analytical backing for an argument
....mumble grumble....GET OFF MY LAWN!
 
gnat
gnat
@JimmyHoffa generated review audit, reject as vandalism and move on. "What we're doing here is actually kind of fun. They're also sometimes hilarious."
62
A: Why no honeypot suggested edits?

Kevin MontroseWe've rolled out audit tasks for suggested edits in our more recent builds. What we're doing here is actually kind of fun. They're also sometimes hilarious. Since we know suggested edits have really noisy history, the approach we use for other queues (selecting "known good" or "known bad" con...

 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
4:19 PM
@gnat I rejected as invalid because it clearly wasn't valid
@gnat Also yeah, that was my first though "This is kind of funny...but...kind of WAT?" before I remembered having seen edit audits before
 
user41796
I think any rejection reason will clear the audit.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 Next time I'll go with custom reason: "BANZAIIII AYAYAYAYAYAYAA!!! I WILL CUT YOU! STABBY STABBY STABBY DIEEEEEEEEEE!!!!"
2
 
user41796
Please do. And then paste evidence here
 
user55340
I did a wholesale rewrite of aop - it should be in the queue.
 
user41796
@MichaelT +4 (rep) to you
 
user55340
4:23 PM
Oh, that "where to include charities" - thing...
 
user41796
Speaking of obvious suggested edit reviews. Here's one: programmers.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/44843
 
user55340
The disaster help question has been edited so it is not temporally limited. There are permanent organisations that respond to different disasters as they arise - so no temporal limitation. It is a list question though. I hope someone volunteers to collaboratively moderate it. What is actually involved? — MarkJ Nov 15 at 14:06
 
user55340
@MarkJ I would talk to the moderators, likely in Programmers Chat. Demonstrate that you can write a really good answer for the question that isn't inviting people to add their own little bit of data. Consider the answer to programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/46716 to be your target in thoroughness of the area. The other approach (as mentioned elsemeta) is to work on the charity tagwiki. For that, look at Stack Overflow's scala tagwiki as an example. — MichaelT yesterday
 
user41796
I rejected it as copied content. The algorithms they use do copy content from other areas on the site.
 
user55340
Btw, I suspect that the SO one was copied from somewhere too - just a 'hmm - that's odd' -- stackoverflow.com/posts/5045519/revisions
 
user55340
4:25 PM
The strange mid-word hyphenation "technolo- gies" seems to indicate that it was copied without editing.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT Looks like a previous revision removed the citation
They misunderstood it was a citation, not just a "Look here for info" and so the editor just changed it to "Here's some info at a wiki page" link rather than leaving it as a source
 
user55340
Yep. Just odd seeing that (and that it stood for so long)
 
user55340
Nearly a year and through one other edit.
 
user55340
(hmm... Oded on the prowl... - watching the various 'recently' in the 10k tools and seeing his name pop up)
 
user41796
@MichaelT If I had to guess, it seems like he has an AM routine of rolling through new questions and nuking the obviously bad ones.
 
user55340
4:33 PM
@GlenH7 This is more the 'ones that he recently closed, just cleaning them up before they have to get 3x regular delete votes'
 
enderland
enderland
I need some peppy music today. Not feeling 100% and it's only 1030..
 
user55340
 
user55340
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@enderland 10 minutes off but
 
user41796
@enderland Pandora's Drum & Bass channel has been kicking it this AM
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
4:36 PM
 
user41796
@MichaelT He hits the regular questions too
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
(that song always comes to mind when somebody complains about ~10 am)
 
user55340
@GlenH7 Yep... if he's in NY, I'm gonna say "lunch break"
 
user41796
@BartvanIngenSchenau Actually, it's Community vs. Yannis. Community usually gets the upper hand at the beginning of the fight, but smart folk put their money on Yannis. He's been known to make Community cry "uncle" in defeat. Check out the revision history — GlenH7 1 min ago
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
...ok so it's not peppy music, but hey whatever :D
 
user41796
4:38 PM
My money is on @YannisRizos smacking Community down hard.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
here's something peppier for you
@GlenH7 You think he'll remove his diamond?
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa Nah, but I think he'll knock Community to its knees and make it whimper quite pathetically.
 
user55340
Sep 25 at 19:51, by Yannis Rizos
Also, overruling community feels gooood... (even if we are only talking about Community ♦). Undeleted.
 
Timtech
Timtech
For `$assocCar = array('year' => 2012,
'colour' => 'blue',
'doors' => 5
'make' => 'BMW');`

Do I need comma after `doors => 5`?
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Timtech Is that PHP?
 
user55340
4:40 PM
@Timtech Not sure what language, but likely yes.
 
Timtech
Timtech
It's PHP
 
user41796
my money was on yes as well
 
Timtech
Timtech
Ah yes it seems to work now.
:)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Timtech Then comma? No, you need a better language after doors => 5
;P
 
user55340
It looks either perl or php - the '=>' fat comma along with the '$' tend to push the language identification that way.
 
user55340
4:41 PM
The thing is that initializing a hash is the same as initializing an array
 
user55340
@foo = (1, 2, 3, 4) gives you [1, 2, 3, 4]
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Our only PHP person is too drunk by this time in the morning to be of any help, but the rest of the kodgers here are happy to guess fixes for you, and if they don't work we might call you names but that's just the price of playing the game
 
Timtech
Timtech
:P
It works now.
 
user55340
%foo = (1, 2, 3, 4) gives you the map of {1 => 2, 3 => 4} -- its just that the '=>' is easier to read and has some additional syntax in there
 
user55340
The fat comma also quotes the next element.
 
user55340
4:42 PM
%foo = ('color' => blue); is valid and the same as %foo = ('color' => 'blue');
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@Timtech Wait, 5 doors?
 
user55340
@JimmyHoffa There are FOUR DOORS!
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT look at his code
 
user55340
 
Timtech
Timtech
Okay, 4 doors...
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
4:43 PM
@MichaelT oh it's PHP, they're 1 indexed nevermind
 
jozefg
jozefg
@MichaelT I prefer tilde, { a ~> b}
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@jozefg At first glance I read "I prefer pepper tilde" and now I really want that to be an actual operator
 
jozefg
jozefg
@JimmyHoffa The dual, <~ is the salt shaker
 
Timtech
Timtech
Got to go
Bye!
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT ...what the hell?
that's a strange clip...
 
user55340
4:49 PM
Its a Star Trek episode and the "There are four lights!" is a bit of a meme. Picard was being tortured and if he went and accepted what the torturer said as true (in face of obvious truth), then he'd be let go.
 
user55340
Chain of Command (Star Trek: The Next Generation)
"Chain of Command" is a two-part episode of the television series Star Trek: The Next Generation. It aired as the tenth and 11th episodes of the sixth season, the 136th and 137th episodes of the series. In this episode, Captain Picard is taken from command of the Enterprise for a covert mission, and his replacement is assigned to deal with the Cardassians openly. Plot Part I Captain Picard, Lt. Worf, and Dr. Crusher are assigned by Starfleet on a covert mission to destroy a Cardassian biological weapons installation on Celtris III, a Cardassian border world. In Picard's place, Starfleet...
 
user55340
>
Madred uses a number of torture methods, including sensory deprivation, sensory bombardment, forced nakedness, stress positions, dehydration, starvation, physical pain, and cultural humiliation to try to gain knowledge of the Federation's plans for Minos Korva. Picard refuses to acknowledge Madred's demand for information. Madred attempts another tactic to break Picard's will: he shows his captive four bright lights, and demands that Picard answer that there are five, inflicting intense pain on Picard if he does not agree.
 
user55340
>
With word of the failure of the Cardassians to secure Minos Korva, Madred attempts one last ploy to break Picard, by falsely claiming that Cardassia has taken the planet and the Enterprise was destroyed in the battle. He offers Picard a choice: to remain in captivity for the rest of his life, or live in comfort on Cardassia by admitting he sees five lights. As Picard momentarily considers the offer, a Cardassian officer interrupts the process and informs Madred that Picard must be returned now. As Picard is freed from his bonds and taken away, he turns back to Madred and defiantly shouts …
 
user55340
That episode is considered one of the top 10.
 
user55340
And.. the "5 doors" - thing... "there are four doors!"
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
4:53 PM
@MichaelT defiance doesn't remove a door, that's what a sawzall is for
 
user41796
or a screwdriver to pop the handle
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 Ooo look at the engineer getting all efficient and shit
 
user55340
But there are only four doors. One need not sawzall or such, because there are only four doors.
 
user55340
@GlenH7 btw, did you look at the history of that bit last friday when I pinged you on the container stress question?
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa it's a reference back to when @MichaelT locked himself in his bathroom
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
4:56 PM
@GlenH7 nevermind just nevermind
 
user41796
@MichaelT nope. Should I have?
 
user55340
Nov 14 at 22:12, by MichaelT
@JimmyHoffa Dunno... should ask @GlenH7
 
user41796
@MichaelT foolishly placed trust
 
user55340
5:10 PM
@GlenH7 Should ask SE to make it so that "engineer" pings you too in this room. ;-)
 
user41796
@MichaelT Not until I get a diamond and can blast said requests to smithereens. :-)
 
user41796
I'm a bit cranky at the moment. (I know, an engineer being cranky?!?) One of our newer devs refuses to follow the teams idioms for programming. And it's creating a lot of rework for me
 
enderland
enderland
@GlenH7 just write a script to remove all his code
 
user41796
@enderland well, on the one hand it's easier than that. I have final authority to approve or reject his additions to the code. The problem is that I need some of the changes. But I'm irked at the others. So I have to pick between copy / paste of what's required vs. just tolerating the technical debt he added to the mix.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 engineer!!
My boss just told me something which doesn't sound true at all, but he knows his stuff so I'm curious
 
user41796
5:18 PM
@JimmyHoffa for a second I thought you were picking on me and my mini-rant
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
TCP connection. NIC goes down, comes back up, will the TCP renegotiate a connection seamlessly underneath? Doesn't the client application have to request a TCP connection again from scratch for the port negotiation to occur?
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa I don't know. Depends upon how the driver is written
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
He said it automatically does that, I always thought you have to redo the three way handshake by requesting a connection again
 
user41796
That could easily be handled in the lower layers (1-3 or maybe 4?) and not hit the application stack.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 It could but...really?? Why the hell do I always have connection-retry logic around all my network resources then that handles reconnecting when connections drop??
 
user41796
5:22 PM
OSI model
The Open Systems Interconnection (OSI) model (ISO/IEC 7498-1) is a conceptual model that characterizes and standardizes the internal functions of a communication system by partitioning it into abstraction layers. The model is a product of the Open Systems Interconnection project at the International Organization for Standardization (ISO). The model groups similar communication functions into one of seven logical layers. A layer serves the layer above it and is served by the layer below it. For example, a layer that provides error-free communications across a network provides the path need...
 
user41796
I'm going to vote for layer 5 handles all that crud, so layer 7 (the app) doesn't need to
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Based on that logic connections should always automatically reconnect
why do I always have to do so much crap when I write code for network dependencies then?? I suddenly don't understand networking at all...
 
user41796
You can lose a socket (and session) for a lot of reasons besides the NIC dropping
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
I figured it was true because my boss really knows this kind of stuff... but... I don't understand...
@GlenH7 But wouldn't they all be handled the same?
 
user41796
NIC dropping is something the driver ought to understand and try to recover from. That's the "oh, I had this state before and then my hardware died. I'm gonna be a good person and try to get back to that state."
 
user41796
5:24 PM
Whereas the session dropping on the other end could be a timeout, a rejection, or a whole host of other reasons. Driver shouldn't just retry in that case because it doesn't necessarily know why it went down
 
user41796
but that's all conjecture. I'm not a network guru by any means
 
user55340
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 The client wouldn't retry in the event of a timeout? What does the servers nic dropping look like if not a timeout?
@MichaelT Layer 8 and 9 aren't the same layer? :o
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa well, not all drivers will recognize the NIC dying. But there is a difference between hardware not responding on the appropriate internal bus vs. no reply from the socket (network)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 I'm saying from the client side\
the client side doesn't know anything about what happened on the server
 
user41796
5:27 PM
sure, but there's a NIC in both machines. Client & server
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
client had a connection, lost it's connection, and the client would automatically try to renegotiate a socket?
client's nic didn't hiccup, just server
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa ok, I see the difference. The logic is mirrored, but still similar
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
I didn't think a TCP socket from a client standpoint when an arbitrary connection dropped for unknown reasons would cause the client to automatically try to redo the 3-way handshake
and negotiate for a port
 
user41796
the server network driver knows the NIC died. Especially in the case of a chained NIC. The server wants to present the illusion of always being "on" so it would try to restart a session that was interrupted by the first NIC dying
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
I just figured it did that once, held onto it until it dropped and then passed up to the owning code "Hey uh, that's ded dude"
 
user41796
5:29 PM
the client NIC would have no clue at that point - it's just a session it thinks it has with another machine
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 So you think the server will bring it back up with that same port session active and ready to respond?
I suppose that's believable
a lot more believable than the client would try to automatically renegotiate a new port everytime a connection drops
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa Sure. That's how NICs can be linked together to provide a single interface.
 
user41796
Take the easier case of two or more NICS linked together on a server. One card dies. All the sessions on the dead NIC now need to be handled by the still alive NIC. Preferably without any of the nodes on the other end(s) knowing what happened.
 
user41796
I forget where the concept of the port lives, but I think it's in one of the middle layers. So it's really just an abstraction to simplify n:n node communications.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 Yeah I get that. That makes sense then that the server handles it nicely like that.
 
user41796
5:34 PM
I look at the layers as "separation of duties" or the "single responsibility" principle manifested. That stack works so well because each layer focuses tightly on only its responsibilities.
 
user55340
Layer 8
Layer 8 is humorous Internet jargon used to refer to a nonexistent "user" or "political" layer on top of the OSI model of computer networking. The OSI model is a 7-layer abstract model that describes an architecture of data communications for networked computers. The layers build upon each other, allowing for abstraction of specific functions in each one. The top (7th) layer is the Application Layer describing methods and protocols of software applications. It is then held that the user is the 8th layer. According to Bruce Schneier and RSA: * Layer 8: The individual person. * Layer 9: T...
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 Yeah, networking is definitely one of my weak points. The interplay of all that stuff is hard for me to square with my understanding of what's actually going on with the network. I have a very simple mental model of what actually happens on the network, but any of those models make it look like there's a shitload more happening.
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa Actually, I think if you looked at it from an Actor system point of view, it would dramatically simplify for you.
 
user41796
And I'm going to go delete my SE account now because I just made a valid FP reference.
 
user41796
I hope I have enough time before the virus takes hold.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
5:39 PM
@GlenH7 In my head I've never been able to square what exactly "IP" is with the fact that the lowest level I understand is UDP: You just send packets. TCP being over that: You just send packets, but there's an intricate ordering and meaning to them. What's below UDP? The NIC framebuffer as far as I can tell, I mean a packet is just bytes, and bytes don't abstract over anything, they're just literally bytes...
But that's all a vast oversimplification, and the only sense I can make of it
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa that helps explain the confusion. TCP / IP are two separate things slammed together out of common circumstance. Let me find a good explanation before I botch it and try to explain instead.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 what is IP? I mean, TCP is UDP, presumable it runs over "IP" but what's IP, fucking NIC framebuffers? That's the only thing below UDP in my head..
it goes from "create a string of bytes to send to the network" to "that string of bytes on the nic framebuffer and out the CAT", inbetween you have a driver/"IP" stack which does the routing between processes in the OS itself that handles the communication between that nic framebuffer and your process which wants to put a string of bytes on that framebuffer.
If "IP" is that whole stack in your OS which routes between processes and the NIC framebuffer/driver I guess that makes sense but not a lot because that's not really a "protocol" any more than your OS's memory management subsystem is a "protocol"
Iduno, I just don't understand networking.
 
user41796
(still looking)
 
user41796
Internet Protocol
The Internet Protocol (IP) is the principal communications protocol in the Internet protocol suite for relaying datagrams across network boundaries. Its routing function enables internetworking, and essentially establishes the Internet. IP, as the primary protocol in the Internet layer of the Internet protocol suite, has the task of delivering packets from the source host to the destination host solely based on the IP addresses in the packet headers. For this purpose, IP defines packet structures that encapsulate the data to be delivered. It also defines addressing methods that are use...
 
user41796
Is kind of a good start. IP covers the lower 3 layers of the OSI stack
 
user41796
5:47 PM
TCP lives at layer 4 and runs on top of IP
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 Still doesn't make sense to me, it says IP defines packet header structures, but that's what UDP does so .. ??
 
user41796
Transmission Control Protocol
The Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) is one of the core protocols of the Internet protocol suite (IP), and is so common that the entire suite is often called TCP/IP. TCP provides reliable, ordered, error-checked delivery of a stream of octets between programs running on computers connected to a local area network, intranet or the public Internet. It resides at the transport layer. Web browsers use TCP when they connect to servers on the World Wide Web, and it is used to deliver email and transfer files from one location to another. Applications that do not require the reliability of ...
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
That's basically UDP in a picture
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa No, I believe UDP is another transport protocol like TCP. But let me verify that
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
UDP defines the routing information headers, so what does IP do if that stuff is the domain of UDP? The wikipedia article for IP says it defines those headers
TCP works on UDP
 
user41796
5:49 PM
User Datagram Protocol
The User Datagram Protocol (UDP) is one of the core members of the Internet protocol suite (the set of network protocols used for the Internet). With UDP, computer applications can send messages, in this case referred to as datagrams, to other hosts on an Internet Protocol (IP) network without prior communications to set up special transmission channels or data paths. The protocol was designed by David P. Reed in 1980 and formally defined in RFC 768. UDP uses a simple transmission model with a minimum of protocol mechanism. It has no handshaking dialogues, and thus exposes any unreliabil...
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
I guess everyone just calls UDP "IP" maybe and that's why I'm always confused
perhaps UDP and IP are just synonymous
because it doesn't make sense anything can be below UDP which defines the structure of the foundational element of all network communication: The packet
 
user41796
 
user41796
IP as in TCP/IP is layer 3. TCP is layer 4. UDP is layer 4.
 
user41796
IP is the "network" in this case.
 
user41796
So if we look at:
 
user41796
5:52 PM
Ethernet
Ethernet is a family of computer networking technologies for local area networks (LANs). Ethernet was commercially introduced in 1980 and standardized in 1985 as IEEE 802.3. Ethernet has largely replaced competing wired LAN technologies such as token ring, FDDI, and ARCNET. The Ethernet standards comprise several wiring and signaling variants of the OSI physical layer in use with Ethernet. The original 10BASE5 Ethernet used coaxial cable as a shared medium. Later the coaxial cables were replaced with twisted pair and fiber optic links in conjunction with hubs or switches. Data rates ...
 
user41796
we understand ethernet as how the systems are wired together.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 You keep talking about these layers but they don't make sense is what I'm saying
 
user41796
IP is how those systems physically talk to each other on the network (ethernet in this case)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
the layers seem to have nothing to do with what's actually going on in the software
 
user41796
and then TCP is what organizes the data (or UDP which doesn't) so that we understand what we're passing around
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
5:53 PM
@GlenH7 Dude, TCP is an abstraction over UDP
TCP is UDP with an intricate dance
and specialized structure to the "message" for things like the TTLs etc
It doesn't make sense to say TCP and UDP are on the same layer when one relies on the other
 
user41796
 
user41796
Each sub-layer just wraps the layer above it.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 See how packets are at the bottom? That's UDP
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa not at layer 1, no.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 Yes
UDP defines the structure and format of the packets to be sent
it's the protocol for defining them
 
user41796
5:55 PM
ok, that's not my understanding of it. But I'm not versed well enough in the network stack to be able to explain it properly
 
user41796
My understanding was that UDP lives at layer 4. But again, I'll cede that I could be wrong.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 Neither am I.. I just know a few fundamental things which never makes sense in the face of all the networking models I've seen.. I know that what networks send are packets, I know the structure of those packets is defined in the UDP spec (look up the spec, it's ultra simple), I know that structure is what instructs everything else in the stack what to do basically (has port and destination information etc)
 
user41796
Which if this was just an elaborate scheme to get me to admit to being wrong.... you win.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 No, I was hoping you could explain how those models fit with what I know that I described above
and TCP is just UDP where the body of the UDP packet has a syn then an ack then a syn-ack then has TTL and other such important TCP related information from then on but they're still just UDP packets, the only difference between TCP and UDP is that TCP adds more required fields to the UDP packet which it stuffs in the UDP's "message" field
 
user41796
 
user41796
6:00 PM
That's from the Wikipedia on IP. I don't like how they named "Internet" and "Link"
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 IP places a header on top of the UDP header?
 
user41796
but it shows how UDP is at layer 4 (transport). UDP just wraps the application data with its header.
 
user41796
Yes, IP then wraps the UDP packet with the IP header
 
user41796
As do the data link and physical link layers, but that's beside the point
 
user41796
So that image shows layer 7 "Application", skips 6 and 5. Then shows layer 4 "Transport" which is UDP in this case but could be TCP. Relablels layer 3 "Network" as "internet". And then merges layer 2 and 1 into "link"
 
user41796
6:10 PM
okay, everyone can come back now. I think we're done banging around the stack....
 
enderland
enderland
just in time for coming back from lunch? :)
 
user41796
@enderland No doubt. I need to grab a bite to eat, but I want to fix the gross errors from this shelf set while they're still in my memory. No guarantees what I'll remember after lunch.
 
enderland
enderland
@GlenH7 :) I enjoy networking stuff like this. It makes you realize how ridiculously crazy awesome computers really are
I need a third monitor. FML
 
user41796
I'm still troubled at how apt of an analogy the Actor System is with the network stack. Means the virus is starting to take hold within me.
 
user55340
7:29 PM
@enderland you might want to chime in on this...
 
user55340
0
Q: Am I letting the team down?

billy.bobI'm involved in a project that has a long running history of failure. Recently we've been approaching a deadline and subsequently been requested that we work overtime in order to get the project delivered. I'm more than happy to stay an hour or so, but I recently found out some of the team are ...

project-management programming-practices work-environment
 
user55340
@Bernard it got closed as primarily opinion here, and Oded is active on TW.SE. If you do believe it should be migrated, it may be best to flag it and make a case for the migration in mod attention - or pop into Programmers Chat and ask there (we do get some people from TW.SE there who could address if it is a good candidate for migration). — MichaelT 9 mins ago
 
Jim G.
Jim G.
5
Q: Refactoring jQuery spaghetti code to use DDD

SongoMost of my client side code ends up as a long script in one file the mostly looks like this: <script> function someFunction1(){/*...*/} function someFunction2(){/*...*/} ... var globalVariable1; var globalVariable2; ... $(function(){ $('selector1').click(function(){ //get relevant data from...

design design-patterns javascript domain-driven-design client-side
 
enderland
enderland
@MichaelT ugh polling questions "tell me if I'm a good person"
 
Jim G.
Jim G.
^^^ Not sure about this one. Seems kind of broad.
 
user41796
7:30 PM
@enderland well, you're a good person. Now, that guy over there... um, well, let's not talk about that.
 
user55340
@enderland Yep. Given Oded's activity on TW, if he thought it was a good candidate for migration, he would have bumped it over there.
 
user41796
@JimG. Really kind of hard to see what "the" answer would be in that case. Does seem like it's fishing
 
user55340
@JimG. meh... I try to stay away from jquery design questions since I don't know the best practices there.
 
user41796
@MichaelT The best practice with jQuery is to avoid using jQuery. (I jest)
 
user55340
@GlenH7 (~6-7 years ago I think), I was working on a website where we specifically designed it so that it didn't need javascript to navigate or use.
 
user55340
7:34 PM
It needed cookies for session / authentication (though we did have a limited http authentication site for those who didn't have cookies).. but no javascript menus or any crazy things like that.
 
user41796
that whole realm is a lot more mature now. It's still paying off the sins of rapid unstructured growth with a dynamic language though.
 
enderland
enderland
@Bernard this question doesn't really have a specific question right now - it reads a bit like "tell me what to do, what do you think?" which is hard to have a concrete answer to. These questions generally do poorly on Workplace. If you can focus it to a more, "how do I do X in this situation?" type question it will be much more well received. — enderland 30 secs ago
not sure if that's coherent, but I threw a comment on there
 
user55340
When we entered it in contents for customer support websites (they exist), it always scored 5, and the judges made mention of its "no javascript" philosophy as a plus.
 
user41796
jQuery is exceptionally powerful, but you have to be mindful of when it jacks with the DOM and blows your performance.
 
Jim G.
Jim G.
@MichaelT Interestingly enough, DDD is usually applied on ther server-side. I'm not even entirely sure how DDD could/should be applied on the client-side.
 
gnat
gnat
7:45 PM
0
Q: Been requested that we work overtime in order to get the project delivered, would that let the team down?

billy bobI'm involved in a project that has a long running history of failure. Recently we've been approaching a deadline and subsequently been requested that we work overtime in order to get the project delivered. I'm more than happy to stay an hour or so, but I recently found out some of the team are ...

project-management overtime
Please edit the question so it doesn't request opinions - we shy away from such questions as they invite discussion rather than reasoned out answers. — Oded 21 mins ago
 
enderland
enderland
@Bernard indeed, it was closed on workplace - please be careful suggesting migrations of questions not matching the recipient site format. Feel free to discuss in Programmers Chat here or on Workplace, I'm in both fairly regularly! — enderland 6 secs ago
 
user55340
I poked a comment on the workplace one...
 
user55340
You want to look up three books: Peopleware and Slack both by Tom DeMarco. Additionally, Death March by Edward Yourdon. These may help you identify the situation you are in, where its going, and what can be done. — MichaelT 2 mins ago
 
user55340
 
user55340
(hmm, I blame caching - I updated my comment, and it didn't update here after resending)
 
user41796
8:00 PM
@MichaelT apparently caching is not your friend today
 
user55340
@GlenH7 caching is never your friend... its the dba's friend so you don't bug him too much.
 
user41796
I try to stay on the right side of my DBAs. Never good to have them mad at you
 
user55340
My take on the 50h thing for a project deadline after my previous employer: screw it. If you are going to do a 50h week for some period of time, you are not going to have a successful project. The end result of that is more 50h weeks to fix it.
 
user55340
Thus, screw it, acknowledge that you're going to blow the deadline, and reset expectations and scope that maintains the sanity of the people developing the software.
 
user41796
@MichaelT I think it depends. And I want to say Brooks' claims would back that. Overtime can work when it's capped in duration (1 week, maybe 1 month) and those participating are given down time to recover from the extra work.
 
user55340
8:04 PM
If you don't maintain their sanity, they will get new jobs - especially if conditions that brought about the 50h weeks in the first place are not rectified. Losing 75% of your development team (happened at my last job) does not make for good support of the project going forward.
 
user41796
But there's definitely a curve for total amount of OT in the week and the results you get. And it's definitely not a linear increase in the productivity either.
 
user55340
Thus, my take on the "am I letting my team down by not also doing 50h" is "no, you're letting the team down by not pushing for a reset of expectations and you may find yourself with much less of a team afterwards. Especially if its clear that the next project will also have mandatory 50s at the end of it too."
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 Nope. Not done. I just had a meeting (long one). Still don't understand: WTH is in the IP header then? The UDP header has destination, port, size, all the shit necessary for the routing et al. So what's in the IP header that's not duplicated in the UDP header?
 
user41796
@MichaelT I definitely agree with that. OT like that has to be an exception with no chance of it becoming the rule.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
  A summary of the contents of the internet header follows:


    0                   1                   2                   3
    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |Version|  IHL  |Type of Service|          Total Length         |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |         Identification        |Flags|      Fragment Offset    |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 
user41796
8:09 PM
IPv4
Internet Protocol version 4 (IPv4) is the fourth version in the development of the Internet Protocol (IP) the Internet, and routes most traffic on the Internet. However, a successor protocol, IPv6, has been defined and is in various stages of production deployment. IPv4 is described in IETF publication RFC 791 (September 1981), replacing an earlier definition (RFC 760, January 1980). IPv4 is a connectionless protocol for use on packet-switched networks. It operates on a best effort delivery model, in that it does not guarantee delivery, nor does it assure proper sequencing or avoidance of ...
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa The header is in there. But the additional stuff is the TTL, version info, checksum, etc...
 
user41796
data link & physical layer will have similar crud like the NIC ID # and such
 
user55340
I'm kind of surprised that Apple didn't do anything Really Neat with their class A network back in the day. They had 16.7M addresses in their network space. Granted, there are a much of others that didn't do anything interesting with theirs either.
 
user41796
@MichaelT They have two now, right? And what would you define as "Really Neat"
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@MichaelT Let's be honest; "back in the day" Apple wasn't doing anything neat, as a general rule
 
user55340
8:11 PM
List of assigned /8 IPv4 address blocks
Some large /8 blocks of IP addresses, the former Class A network blocks, are assigned in whole to single organizations or related groups of organizations, either by the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN), through the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA), or a regional Internet registry. Each /8 block contains 16,777,216 addresses. As IPv4 address exhaustion has advanced to its final stages, some organizations, such as Stanford University, formerly using 36.0.0.0/8, have returned their allocated blocks to assist in the delay of the exhaustion date. List of a...
 
user55340
They've just got 17.*.*.*
 
user55340
(hmm.. Ford Motor has a class A also... And Halliburton)
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Ok, so IP does have it's own header structure over top of the UDP header... now I can't help but wonder why the crap the UDP header exists. Kind of stupid it would seem.
 
user41796
huh, I thought there were one or two firms that owned two Class As
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa it all heads back to single responsibility. Each layer wraps what they received so the layer (if it chooses to) can verify it didn't fudge up the data it was given.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
8:14 PM
@GlenH7 But why is their duplication? Single responsibility is so you don't need to duplicate shit
 
user41796
and all of that wrapping facilitates troubleshooting / debugging "network" issues
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Ok I think I kind of get it
 
user55340
@GlenH7 HP has one (15). HP bought Compaq, which had bought DEC which had 16.*.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
The IP header is stripped off before the UDP receiver get's the packet
 
user41796
Each layer was meant to be independent of the other. So if something went wrong (which it frequently did "back in the day") then you knew exactly who to go shoot.
 
user41796
8:15 PM
@JimmyHoffa correct. As you go down the stack you build up the onion. As you walk back up the stack, you unpeel it.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
Ok. Yep, I don't know fuckall about networking.
 
user41796
@MichaelT OK, that's who I was thinking of then. I knew there was at least one but couldn't remember.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
I'll just take my SQL and go home
 
user41796
The layers & protocols were created when they had "no idea" how in the heck they were going to send a signal all the way across the country. So they built a lot of redundancy in so they could hunt down the guilty culprits
 
user41796
@JimmyHoffa - think back to the really old days (you know, like 1970s / 1980s) when the network technology was brand spanking new and no-one really knew how they were going to create the interwebs.
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
8:21 PM
@GlenH7 I get all that, it sort of makes some sense now; I just mean it's clear to me how little I know about that stuff. I'm just glad I don't need to (generally). Networking is dry as fuck.
Understanding networking is right up there with understanding baud rate negotiation on an RS-232, I just can't care and luckily it's way too far down the stack to matter to me (broadly)
 
user41796
Long distance networks helped drive the understanding and formalization of chaos theory.
 
user41796
Of course, chaos theory is some pretty crazy stuff that requires some serious cerebral power to grok, IMO
 
Jimmy Hoffa
Jimmy Hoffa
@GlenH7 No it's really simple, chaos theory goes like this: Some rowdy bikers are chaotic neutral, rowdy murderers are chaotic evil, rowdy party girls are chaotic good. Chaos theory, easy peasy.
 
user41796
I think I would have stuck with the course in grad school if it had been explained that way.
 
enderland
enderland
8:44 PM
@MichaelT I will nearly ONLY work 50 hour weeks consistently if I am being paid for it
 
user55340
@enderland I was... and overtime too... but man, it just killed morale and productivity for months.
 
user55340
A bad part of it was that 3 months after we were 'mandatory 50' (and not for a good reason), we actually had an instance where we needed to put in the 50h, but we were so drained... it just took much longer to get it done and there were numerous mistakes along the way.
 
enderland
enderland
It fascinates me the number of managers who seem to think that simply working lots of hours (without high morale to do so) doesn't burn people out
 
user41796
@enderland honey badger don't give a sh!t.
 
user55340
What does the 🐺 say?
 
Yannis Rizos
Yannis Rizos
8:53 PM
Can't you just delete the irritating Community user? I know it will rise again, but maybe this will buy you some time. ;) — Sha Wiz Dow Ard 1 min ago
 
user41796
Previous firm I worked at had a few managers like that. On a recent project, they put everyone on mandatory OT that they could just to prove "they were dedicated"
 
user41796
@YannisRizos He's totally stealing my campaign-for-moderator platform!!!
 
enderland
enderland
@MichaelT woof
 
user55340
 
enderland
enderland
I just LOVE that video for some reason
it's so silly
Maybe it's that it clearly has no intent to be serious ?
 
user55340
8:55 PM
 
enderland
enderland
lol just from the splash screen I assume that's ridiculous too
 
user41796
@MichaelT - you're starting to scare me
 
user55340
@GlenH7 now I am starting to scare you?
 
user41796
@MichaelT yeah, well.... Maybe I wasn't really paying attention?
 
user55340
(the Elders React series is based on an earlier series called "Kids React" in which kids from ages 5 to 15 or so were shown viral videos and their reactions were recorded)
 
user55340
8:57 PM
 
user55340
 
user41796
@MichaelT The elders probably have funnier reactions.
 
user55340
@GlenH7 Want me to link to the twerking one?
 
user41796
@MichaelT screens might shatter. Flags might get raised. These are dangerous times.
 
user55340
@GlenH7 The kids react ones though... quite funny.
 
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