Fantasy Adventure Time v.s. Shadowrun Question Chat

12:35 AM

So, I agree fantasy (e.g. Conan the Barbarian, OD&D, etc) don't require not paying attention to survival details

But I think adventure (e.g Treasure Island) kind of does

also, hi :)

It's not decomposable like that. fantasy-adventure-genre, one unitary concept that is particular to RPGs. You can look at fantasy separately in lit, or adventure lit separately, but "adventure genre" doesn't exist in RPGs.

the dark wanderer

hmm. Are there really no games that involve adventuring but not magic?

I mean, I can't think of any, but it seems like there should be some

SevenSidedDie

Usually it's just called "fantasy" in RPGs. I added "adventure" to emphasise the RPG genre is what the label is about, not the generic concept of fantasy that is used in diverse ways. Here on RPG.SE and in RPG context generally, "fantasy" = "monsters and magic and low technology, like Tolkien"

@thedarkwanderer Sure. It's just not a genre.

For genres, Shadowrun is solidly cyberpunk. It was created to cash in on the cyberpunk boom in the 80s, but imported some fantasy tropes as a twist on the genre to make it stand out against the stiff competition.

(For contrast, FASA's fantasy-genre offering at the time was Earthdawn.)

the dark wanderer

I'm not sure that usage is as wide spread as you say. The Shadowrun books self identify as fantasy, and the Shadowrun wikia post on Earthdawn (which has the lower tech+Adventure you're looking for) says "Earthdawn is a set in the same world as Shadowrun. Both are fantasy role-playing games that were produced by FASA".

SevenSidedDie

Fantasy

Fantasy is a genre of fiction that commonly uses magic and other supernatural phenomena as a primary plot element, theme, or setting. Many works within the genre take place in imaginary worlds where magic and magical creatures are common. Fantasy is generally distinguished from the genres of science fiction and horror by the expectation that it steers clear of scientific and macabre themes, respectively, though there is a great deal of overlap between the three, all of which are subgenres of speculative fiction. In popular culture, the fantasy genre is predominantly of the medievalist form. In...

It's pretty widespread. From that article: "Fantasy is generally distinguished from the genres of science fiction and horror by the expectation that it steers clear of scientific and macabre themes, respectively, though there is a great deal of overlap between the three, all of which are subgenres of speculative fiction."

So the Earthdawn and Shadowrun texts are the odd ones out. They're misusing 'fantasy' to mean 'speculative fiction'; which isn't surprising though, because that genre label doesn't really get used in RPGs at all.

the dark wanderer

12:47 AM

Except that they really do fit the requirements of the Wikipedia article: "Fantasy is a genre of fiction that commonly uses magic and other supernatural phenomena as a primary plot element, theme, or setting. Many works within the genre take place in imaginary worlds where magic and magical creatures are common" They only generally avoid scientific themes

SevenSidedDie

(Shadowrun has marketing reasons to claim the fantasy label too — fantasy outsells every other genre of RPGs by a huge margin — so their claim is not neutral.)

the dark wanderer

Shadowrun is sci-fi/fantasy in the true sense, not the library label (i.e. sci-fi/fantasy=speculative fiction)

SevenSidedDie

But we're speaking not of qualifying technically, but of what is generally meant when someone says "fantasy".

the dark wanderer

That's fair

SevenSidedDie

If I ask you for a fantasy game, replying with Eclipse Phase is right out. Ditto Cyberpunk 2020.

the dark wanderer

12:49 AM

Well, obviously. Those aren't fantasy in the lit sense either

SevenSidedDie

Shadowrun deliberately skirts the edge of fantasy, but its core is cyberpunk. And cyberpunk as a core genre is incompatible with someone asking for a core fantasy game.

the dark wanderer

That's definitely true of earlier editions, but by SR4 I think we're about 50/50

SevenSidedDie

Yeah, but any cyberpunk is going to make a game different than what one is asking for when using the unqualified label "fantasy". There is no bioware in unqualified "I'm looking for a fantasy game".

the dark wanderer

That's true, and I wouldn't have suggested it if the poster had mentioned fantasy as a genre explicitly in his criteria

SevenSidedDie

But he did, right in the tags and the title.

the dark wanderer

12:53 AM

Instead he just mentions 'has a developed magicv system'

Yes, in the title. I think that when he specifically lists his criteria and says 'has developed magic' rather than 'fantasy genre' its a good indication the by fantasy he meant 'has magic and such'.

missed the tag though, that's important

SevenSidedDie

Yeah, if it was just the title, I'd wonder if they miswrote. But both together is pretty strong.

Cyberpunk is unquestionably good for the rest of the criteria, especially a developed magic system.

the dark wanderer

Ok, looking at the review history it was much clearer in earlier posts that fantasy=swords and sorcery was in fact the goal

So, what do I do now? Should I delete the answer?

(honest question)

SevenSidedDie

I'd suggest an edit: put a frame-challenge right at the beginning. Something like, it's got familiar fantasy elements, but brought forward into the modern day. And it fits the rest of the criteria so extremely well that it should be considered despite being a little off-target for genre?

Basically, own that the genre request doesn't match, but sell it as being so very fitting a choice otherwise that this "tiny" issue should be overlooked.

(Aside, I'm cleaning up my comments there because they're well obsolete by now!)

the dark wanderer

Ok. Ordinarily I don't think frame-challenges are appropriate for genre requests ("I wanna play a game on a spaceship" "No, you want to play a Western" "..."), but I think this makes sense here.

I'll clean up my comments too

SevenSidedDie

1:08 AM

Yeah. They're in it for the complex-ness... perhaps they just never considered other genres? And if they looked at Shadowrun, perhaps they'd see enough fantasy for their taste? So it's worth selling it, but selling it well. :)

Aside, I've noticed that you take criticism extremely well, even when it's not delivered very well. As someone who doesn't receive it easily (or give it well, often), I really admire that.

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Fantasy Adventure Time v.s. Shadowrun…