اللغة العربية

3:50 AM

If I may go back to the earlier question.

O think the question is sort of a mixture of orthography and phonetics or phonology or phonics.

The issue there is in part also that there is a big difference between classical pronunciation and contemporary pronunciation.

And as always, I told you before that I like it, proper transliteration may help in this case.

@ClintEastwood what is proper transliteration? can you give an example maybe

غرفة is properly transliterated as ġurfa

مجاهج is muǧāhid

عمر is ʿUmar

interesting

and these letters represent the exact sounds?

اللغة العربية is al-luġa al-ʿarabīya

they are designed to do so.

I mean, would a non arabic speaker know that by just looking at it, or would they have to study proper transliteration?

3:59 AM

I mean of course one would have to know that غ = ġ (often also gh)

i see

but in general, that a system to represent what is assumed to be the classical pronunciation

well, i am sure proper transliteration has it's place, but wouldn't it be best to keep it simple, and have someone just listen to the word?

but غ/ġ is phonetically describe as a "voiced uvular fricative"

I know that transliteration is not easy, but as I see it it helps.

This is why I argued that transliteration should not be banned from the proposal

there are simper ways of transliterating. Especially in the US, scholars would write ghurfa and shadda instead of ġurfa and šadda

My point is that knowing where there is fatḥa, kasra, ḍamma or sukūn in a word is definitely a "finer point" of the language and important for prnounciation and orthography

people who know how to transliterate usually know how a word is pronounced

Imho, the Arabic language has such a nice and well-studied morphological system (i.e. a system of and rules for how the words are formed), that it would be sad if this would be disregarded.

by "well-studied" I do not only mean contemporary studies, but classical grammarians as well. It is these grammarians who explored the language and tried to understand it in the first place. That is all part of the Arabic or Islamic culture.

4:15 AM

@ClintEastwood but the point of proper pronunciation is also saying a letter correctly, which (unless the person already knows the language) transliteration does not provide, for instance someone looking at the transliteration for غرفة might end up saying قرفة thinking that is correct, and transliteration does not to my knowledge fix the problem of راء being turned into an R

transliteration tells you what sound to use. there is a difference between راء and غين

someone pronouncing غرفة as qurfa uses a dialect.

this is why any question about "how to pronounce word xy in Arabic" that will occur on our site will be somewhat of the point, because there is no longer THE one correct pronunciation -- but there used to be one or at least there used to be a standard.

@ClintEastwood but راء is also part of the word

which word?

@ClintEastwood قرفة is not a dialect, it is cinnamon

@ClintEastwood I was using غرفة as an example

I though you meant that poeple nowadays often pronounce غ as a k or g or q

but what did you mean by "transliteration does not to my knowledge fix the problem of راء being turned into an R"?

4:21 AM

@ClintEastwood no no, as far as I know that never happens, غ is usually pronounced properly. I am speaking about non arabic speakers

@ClintEastwood غرفة, many times people pronounce the راء as an letter R

Oh, it happens. This is why it is Ba-G-dad in english pronunciation (and in other languages) and not Ba-R-dad. Likewise, Af-G-anistan instead of Af-R-anistan

and how do you pronounce it?

@ClintEastwood the letter? well there are somethings that no written words can show, but it should be heard

I think now I know what you mean. In english the letter R is a story of its own. Let's agree on that the راء in Arabic should not be pronounced as the R in English (much less American English)

Arabic is not limited to the merely the tongue and hands, but requires the usage of other parts like the ears and eyes etc

=)

4:27 AM

@ClintEastwood yes, we agree

Don't worry, I don't pronounce it like that. =)

:)

So, what do you think about questions about "how do I pronounce word X in Arabic"?

how should it be answered (given the diversity of possible answers in different dialects)?

@ClintEastwood I think it is a fine question, it fits the scope of the site, but can only be answered through sound

but different native speakers from different regions might produce different sounds

4:31 AM

@ClintEastwood it should be answered in فصحى unless other wise specified

ok. right. that's fine.

@ClintEastwood as long as they say it in فصحى / dialect of Qureish and those closest it should not matter

(by the way: I mistyped مجاهد above...)

@ClintEastwood I know, I could not miss it, it was funny but I don't mind, I know how close some letters are on the keyboard that you might hit the wrong one

One brief example of transliteration:

wa-laysa maʿnā l-qūwa illā mabdaʾ taḥrīk yakūnu fī l-šayʾ

وليس معنى القوة إلّا مبدأ تحريك يكون في الشيء

@Mujahidمجاهد : and now I am off to work...

see you later!

4:43 AM

@ClintEastwood see you :)

Maybe one last point...

To explain what I was up to above: people who know how to transliterate, know how things are pronounced, because the proper transliteration system represents fuṣḥā.

This is why I am saying that transliteration is helpful: you don't need to record a sound file and upload it and implement it into Arabic SE anymore once you have transliterated a word properly, because this tells you how it should be pronounced

6:21 AM

السلام عليكم، صباح الخير

و عليكم السلام

6:49 AM

@ClintEastwood, Hello!

7:08 AM

Hello!

to both of you @Omar and @F.Julian

Q: Arabic language and pronunciation questions

7:30 AM

How are you guys?

3

A discussion took place in a chatroom dedicated for the Arabic Language Proposal it started: let say a non-Arabic speaker asking how to pronounce a word in Arabic the discussion went on from there. Among the mentioned is that basically no language can be used to show how to pronounce an ...

feature-request

Support it and add your comments/ideas

7:40 AM

@F.Julian @ClintEastwood Hi :)

Well. Thanks. I hope you are too?

I'm fine Alhamdulillah.

7:54 AM

@Omar and @Mujahidمجاهد : I just added a remark to the question on meta.

@ClintEastwood I'll check it

@ClintEastwood back at ya! haha

@ClintEastwood

8:18 AM

@Omar : great.

@ClintEastwood I'm still not sure about uploading audio files

unless we find a mechanism to avoid abuse/misuse

Yeah, me neither. Especially hosting would be problematic.

@Omar maybe dict.cc might be a solution, too

do you know that?

no, i will check it

for example, google "define subtle"

that's a dictionary and users can upload audio files

ˈsədl = what is this called in english? phonics?

8:20 AM

and when you click one of the symbols, the play the audio file

the way you pronounce a word

we could ask the maintainer of the site, if he wants to start an Arabic version of dict.cc (as he already started French, Spanish, Russian, and so on and so forth)

i tried to find out myself this morning

I think it's phonics but I've never heard of the word before

@ClintEastwood yeah, the site has no arabic

the IPA is the international phonetic alphabet, though

but if he starts an arabic site, we would have our audio file function ready

so maybe its phonetics

@ClintEastwood we could do something similar for arabic (markdown)

as in Mathematics SE they have special markdown/format for equations

8:23 AM

phonetics is, however, more about the sounds of a language of which spoken words are composed

phonology is the science about how these sounds have meanings

and maybe phonics is simply pronunciation

good to know :)

yes that would be good. I mean HOW to do it is something for those who will have to code the feature and implement it into SE

but we need to find a way to persuade them that they should do it

and the question about how and were to store these files maybe one of the biggest issues in this

is all language SE sites start recording audio files... that could generate a lot of traffic...

we could involve other lang sites

spanish and japanese

could not?

sorry

8:27 AM

on the other hand, users will not constantly click on audio files. so maybe it'S not that much traffic. and a 1-2 seconds mp3 is not that large. so maybe even storing the files is not that great a problem.

there are many lang sites

i think we should indeed

that would be a GREAT feature for language sites

area51.stackexchange.com/categories/3/culture

and: there is already the feature to upload images and pdfs!

so adding a mp3 option that si limited to, say 500KByte and a "play"-button is enough!

yes exactly

@Omar and @Mujahidمجاهد

great, then let's pursue and support those features

they will be so handy

10:41 AM

@Sammaye @Mujahidمجاهد hi bros

have you seen my edit? discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/revisions/18184/2

10:57 AM

السلام عليكم

@Omar صباح الخير :)

@Mujahidمجاهد صباح النور أخي كيف حالك

@Omar تمام الحمد الله

Hey guys. I just added something to my answer about bi-lingual tags. discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/a/18197/68562

@Sammaye : how difficult do you think it is having bi-lingual tags? Does anyone know? Maybe that would be a meta question, too.

Arabic has it's own terminology, there is no need to implement foreign terminology

but users may not know them

11:06 AM

the application for foreign terminology is to answer learners questions and as tag
synonyms

the majority of users, that is.

sorry bros I was answering a question. my first answer on Islam SE

@ClintEastwood whoever the majority of this site is going to be, there are two possibilities, either the majority won't know the proper terminology, or the majority may have no idea what the foreign terminology says

@Mujahidمجاهد : I though you in your answer also advocated a bilingual tag?

@ClintEastwood Spanish and English are almost alike

Arabic is somehow different.

11:15 AM

exactly. this is why on Spanish SE it does not matter whether they use the Spanish or the English expressions for their tags

@ClintEastwood as a synonym merged into the arabic tag, the arabic tag being the master tag

Maybe quoting Spanish is my mistake, I should have chosen German or Japanese :D

All i am saying is that people should be able to search for grammar and get results for "نحو | grammar"

@ClintEastwood they would still be able to, but it will simply redirect them to the main النحو <-- grammar

I think it would be better to have bi-lingual tags (when possible). this would add something substantial to the usability of the site and to its openness to users with different levels of knowledge

11:24 AM

I don't know, I maybe incorrect to think this but if someone is learning Arabic, how can they use their own language to learn it, and if they use foreign terminology does mean they are also using foreign definitions of terms?

back

@Mujahidمجاهد bilingual tags will facilitate finding what you're looking for, and properly tagging your question.

@Mujahidمجاهد how did you do that? Arabic text has broken tag format when I tried it.

@Omar I support non arabic terms usage in tags as synonyms, but no where else, except maybe to answer beginner beginner questions

@Omar the chat is a separate network, this probably works through out the whole network, as for sites it will be broken unless there is non latin support for tags, like on Japanese.SE

hmmm maybe

btw, Russian lang is using Russian tags, Chinese no.

Chinese, Japanese and German are using English lang for tagging.

11:41 AM

@Omar I remember to going to Japanese.SE to see whether an attempt at arabic tags would make them broken, but non latin character tags seem to be supported

@Mujahidمجاهد Have you tried it yet?

السلام عليكم يا جماعة

@Omar yes before

@user107161 وعليكم سلام

@user107161 و عليكم السلام

A: ماذا سنفعل بالمشاركات التي تنسخ العربية بحروف أجنبية؟ What to do about transliterated posts

هذه أفضل حل لمشكلة النسخ

5

الأفضل هو منع هذا النسخ نهائيا!

11:54 AM

@user107161 يجب البحث عن آلية تسهل على الجميع التواصل، سواء السائل أو المجيب أو الباحث

A: Questions about Arabizi (arabic chat)

0

ابدا، العربيزي ممنوع وما هي إلا مؤامرة من مؤامرات أعدائنا على لغتنا العظيمة

@Omar لكن النسخ تخفض من جودة وعظمة اللغة العربية

@user107161 هذا خطاب سياسي أخي. أنا لا أتفقع مع هذه الطرق في كتابة اللغة العربية. و لكن لا نستطيع أن ننكر أنه ربما الباحث عن إجابة لا يمتلك كل السبل المتاحة لطرح سؤاله بشكل واضح

نريد أن نسهل عملية تبادل المعلومات بين جميع الأطراف

يجب أن نرتقي بهذا المكان من خلال خلق جو من الراحة و سهولة الإستخدام

4

@Omar إذا لا يعلم العربية، فاليطرحها بلغته

@user107161 أوافقك الرأي، لكن باللغة الإنجليزية لأن الأغلبية تتحدثها

اذا طرحها بالانكليزية، فما دخل النسخ على موقعنا؟

12:02 PM

عندي شعور بأن الموقع سيكون من أنجح المواقع بإذن الله. لا تنسى أن اللغة العربية من أكثر اللغات تحدثا عالميا و أيضا هناك إقبال عليها

@Omar إنشاء الله. أنا أيضا عندي نفس الشعور

@user107161 القضية ليست قضية نسخ و إنما قضية كيفية طرح السؤال بشكل واضح و خصوصا علامات التشكيل

@Mujahidمجاهد إن شاء الله. مشوار الألف ميل يبدأ بخطوة :)

:)

@Mujahidمجاهد هل من جديد على إقتراحك؟

بإمكاننا أيضا جعل الفكرة عامة لتشمل جميع مواقع اللغة

علينا طلب دعم من المواقع الأخرى

@Omar موافق

سأقوم بتحرير اقتراحي اﻵن

12:20 PM

@Mujahidمجاهد بارك الله فيك و ثبت خطاك

Q: Language sites and pronunciation questions

@Omar آمين

5

The following feature request would be useful for the language sites in general if implemented. A discussion took place in a chatroom dedicated for the Arabic Language Proposal it started: let say a non-Arabic speaker asking how to pronounce a word in Arabic the discussion went on from...

feature-request

12:36 PM

Great!

@Mujahidمجاهد سأقوم بترويج الإقتراح في غرف الدردشة

@Mujahidمجاهد : good job

الله ولي التوفيق

this user is not quite promoting what I am hoping for Arabic SE to become...

@ClintEastwood which user?

107161

12:52 PM

@ClintEastwood what happened?

I took what he said earlier to be against asking questions in english, against using transliteration as a means to get closer to understanding the language and so on

or did I misunderstand what he wrote?

And I wonder why this answer received five up-votes: discuss.area51.stackexchange.com/a/17767/68562

which he described "أفضل حل"

Hello

@ClintEastwood, where are you from?

@F.Julian : Hello

From Germany

@ClintEastwood I'm wondering as well

@ClintEastwood which part of Germany?

@Omar : From Munich

1:02 PM

@ClintEastwood, Actually, I was wondering why are you interested in the Arabic language?

@ClintEastwood The user doesn't seem to be against asking questions in english itself, only against transliteration

@ClintEastwood I'll call you "The Bavarian" :)

=)

1 hour ago, by user107161

@Omar إذا لا يعلم العربية، فاليطرحها بلغته

what is "اليطرحها"?

1:05 PM

I'll go through his answers comments when I come back

ما معنى العربيزي؟

@ClintEastwood فلطرحها

يسألها

oh there was typo then?

طرحت سؤالا على الجميع

نعم كان خطأ مطبعيا

ok. alright. then I get it.

1:07 PM

I have to go now

@F.Julian هو استخدام الحروف اللاتيني والأرقام لكتابة العريية العامية

I'll be back later insha'allah

@ Omar : tell me where you are from first =)

and you, too, @F.Julian

شكرا أخ مجاهد

أنا فلسطيني أعيش في إسبانيا

1:09 PM

ahh this is why you used the Spanish example... =)

hehe yup ;)

I am Arabic, Man! However, you are from Germany, knows Arabic and Islamic as well!

I mean that's awesome, just made me curious..

@F.Julian : well, my interest in the language is due to my interest in philosophy and theology

وأنا شامي

من دمشق

@Mujahidمجاهد, هل درست في الشام؟

1:12 PM

@F.Julian : I consider myself an academic doing research on ابن سينا and فخر الدين الرازي for example

This is why I am interested

Ok, that's nice! I haven't met similar ppl in my life hehe

@F.Julian عذرا، لكنني لم أفهم

من خلال كتابتك لكلمة (مسئول) على سبيل المثال, تبين لي أنك تعتمد أو درست المنهج الخليجي إن صح التعبير

المعذرة إن كان السؤال شخصيا. دعنا نتخطى هذا السؤال

للموقع, هناك مشكلة العلامات. أو ما يدعى tags

@F.Julian نعم فالنتخطاها

Q: Bilingual "Tags"الكلمات الدلالية باللغتين

3

Proposal: Arabic Language Is it possible/feasible/allowed for a single tag to be in two languages? Or should the tags be in either English or Arabic? Spanish SE's tags are in Spanish, hence, Arabic SE's tags should be in Arabic only? هل يمكن كتابة الكلمات الدلالية باللغتين العربية و الانجليزية...

culture arabic tags

1:20 PM

أما كلمة (مسئول) فإني فإني أكتبها أحيانا (مسئول) وأحيانا أخرى (مسؤول(

أما عن سبب ذلك أنا لا أعلم، أنا هكذا أكتب المهم ان المعنى واحد

وماذا تبقى مسائل عالقة للموقع؟ عدا عن الكلمات الدلالية

@F.Julian نعم، هل لديك رأي فيها؟

هل يمكن إنشاء كلمات دلالية عربية وأخرى إنكليزية؟

هؤلاء الذين يجيدون اللغة العربية, يستطيعون استخدام الكلمات الدلالية العربية

أما المتعلمون, فأظن أن الإنكليزية أسهل

لكني لست متأكداً من إمكانية إنشاء ضعف عدد الكلمات الدلالية لتغطية هذه المسألة

@F.Julian هناك النسخ، والترجمة، اللهجات، ومسئلة الدعم للغة العربية

2

@F.Julian نعم

الترجمة تتعلق بالكلمات الدلالية, أقصد أنه بالنسبة للمتعلم إن لم يجد أسئلة مماثلة لسؤاله ضمن الكلمات الدلالية الإنكليزية, فإنه سينشئ سؤالاً جديدا وإن كان مجابا عنه بالعربية

بمعنى آخر, سيحتوي الموقع كلمات دلالية عربية تحتوي أسئلة عربية وأخرى بالإنكليزية

هذا اقتراحي, هل هناك مشكلة فيه؟

بالنسبة للدعم, يتعين على المنشئين ومديري الشركة إنشاء موقع يدعم لغتنا. هذه مسؤوليتهم.
اللهجات أنا ضدها مئة بالمئة

1:32 PM

@F.Julian اقتراح جيد لا أرى فيها مشكلة

@F.Julian حتى السؤال عنها؟

7

Q: How to deal with dialects?

Proposal: Arabic Language This question recently made me wonder about this proposal: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/62022/arabic-language/67683#67683 whereby it essentially asks for a map between Quranic and MS Arabic. This has got me wondering: how would we deal with the differences...

culture arabic

أقصد السؤال عن اللهجات

وما يتعلق بلهجة معينة مثلا

A: Bilingual "Tags"الكلمات الدلالية باللغتين

1:52 PM

0

The best solution is to create tags in both languages; For those who are profissional in Arabic, they should use the Arabic tags, unless they will include translation to the question. In this case, they should include the English & the Arabic tags. For the learners or those who don't know Arabi...

من وجهة نظري الشخصية, أنا ضد اللهجات. في نهاية الأمر, هدف الموقع هو نشر اللغة العربي الفصحى و تثبيتها. الأمر الذي يتناقض مع موضوع اللهجات.

2

لكن, في الوقت ذاته.. لا يمكننا الابنعاد عن الواقع. أقصدأن استخدام اللغة العربية الفصحى يقتصر على الصحف والتلفاز

لذلك.. الجواب هو لا أدري ^_^!!

ههه :)

المعذرة لم أر ما كتبته قبل الحذف

أنا أقول باشتراط استخدام العربي الفصحى في الكتابة على الموقع، وسماح الأسئلة عن اللهجات وما يتعلق فيها

لكن شخصيا أنا مثلك في وجهة النظر حول اللهجات

@F.Julian حذفته لأنني ارسلته فبل الانتهاء من الكتابة

@Mujahidمجاهد وما يتعلق بها

@3to5businessdays أهلا ومرحبا بك في هذه الغرفة

2:37 PM

@Omar I'll call you "The Andalusian", then =)

3:23 PM

السلام عليكم

@ClintEastwood hahaha I'm ok with it ;)

Makouda

7:50 PM

أظن أ، اللهجات هي خطر كبير على اللغة العربية، و أي سؤال يحتوي على كلمات عامية يترتب عليه تصويت سلبي، العرب هم الشعب الوحيد الذي لا يتكلم باللغة التي يدرس بها هههه، فما اسوا اللهجات و ما اقبحها هههه

2

هههه للاسف لا تستخدم اللغة العربية الفصحى الا في الأخبار و الصحف

Makouda

لكن اللهجات ليست لغة، و كل كلمة عربية لا توجد في القاموس يستحق صاحبها العقاب

هذا واقعنا المذلة والمؤسفة، ولذلك علينا صون موقعنا من اللغة العامية، فالكتابة باللهجات ممنوع

Makouda

بارك الله فيك أخي مجاهد، هذا ما اراه انا ايضا