@FMS Hi, I'm here

Sorry for being late. Aloha @Calvin!

@MattGutting You are welcome to join us.

@Calvin My thinking is there is God's plan of creation. The angels, in varying degrees no of it. The angel that is to become Satan and the Devil oppose it. That's when God intervenes to salvage hi plan and the some for us. Unlikely that God would the share his salvation plan with one who has now become enemy - a smart one though who ccan guess and knows in the end he will be defeated. He doesn't get to guess that God will become man in the way he did.

*The angels, in varying degrees know of it.

From my understanding of your position, there is only one plan?

Two plans, actually

God's plan to send everyone to earth knowing that they would fall short and be in need of a savior

And Satan's alternative plan, in which he would be "like the most high" and "save" everyone but take away their freedom of choice

@Calvin digesting ...

Satan was persuasive enough that one third of the angles followed him and were cast out

You said this: *I apologize if I'm not understanding you correctly, but you seem to be drawing a distinction between the creation and the plan of salvation.*in the comment to your answer . Please explain.

sure

May I understand Devil's plan in opposition to God's one plan? My thinking is that the Isaiah passage is the opposition to God's original plan which is not equal to his plan of salvation.

If I understand where you are coming from, you are saying that God made the creation and planned to send his children down to earth. Then Satan messed it up and God had to send a savior to fix things. Please correct me it that's not right.

So you say there is God's original plan and his plan of salvation. What's the difference?

Please see this question of mine first.

If free creatures, angels and men , did not rebel/sin, no need for salvation.

reading

Then this one.

Yes, if nobody sinned, then Christ would not need to make an atonement for sin

And this answer of mine

I believe Satan was an important angel in heaven before his fall

Regarding your second link, my answer would be that his sin was to rebel against God

Specifically to make himself like the most high and taking away the agency of others

Another approach: God created for an end and that end was Jesus Christ, God-made-man, so that God would be all in all. God wanted the angels to worship his Son as he brought him in the world. That's what the Angel-soon-to-be-Satan-or-Devil rebelled. As you said, he seduced the other angels to be their own lords. God had now to tweak his plan with His Son now coming as Savior.

The Devil wanted to frustrate the end goal of creation or not to be part of it.

@Calvin answered in my last comment.

abobe.

above

I think you are getting at an interesting point

Why would people sin if there was no devil to tempt them?

There has to be opposition to make a choice

So if Satan never rebelled and never became Satan, why would we need a Savior?

I'm not sure how that hypothetical would play out...

Our history is we were seduced and perhaps that's why perhaps we were spared while the devils were not since theirs was of malice. It is speculation that Adam or some of his descendants could have eaten the forbidden fruit on their own.

But God knows the end from the beginning, so he knew Satan would rebell and people would sin and a Savior would be needed

@Calvin Correct. Remember the rebellion causes a disturbance iin goodness and affronts the creator and justice demands reparation needs to be made. For scriptural basis I believe St. Paul says Jesus reconciled all both, on earth and in heaven ... (paraphrasing)

" justice demands reparation" absolutely

@Calvin Remeber the end of creation. God-made-man even without sin. only after sin he becomes savior.

We are unable to pay the price of our sins ourselves but the sinless savior could do it for us and then grant us mercy (and forgiveness) as we repent

what do you mean by the term God-made-man?

That's the distinction I wanted to make. End of creation different from salvation plan.

So let me explain the salvation plan as I understand it then maybe we will see where we understand differently

@Calvin The incarnation. God becoming man. Remember creation is an act of love. just as were are unable to make adequate reparation when we sin, so even if we had not sinned, all creation, especially free creatures, would have been unable to adequately return God's love unless God became man and so the love would be that of equals.

In a nutshell: God made the earth. He sent mankind down to earth with the ability to choose good or evil. Man chose evil. Christ came and payed the price for sin and enabled us to become good and return as we follow the Gospel.

and between equals.

@Calvin Where do the angels feature?

good question

angels = heavenly messengers or heavenly beings

or God's children in heaven before birth on earth

In my thinking and explanation, all are accounted for ...