In Avos we find the requirement to learn Mishna before Gemara. Mishna, as it does all over Shaas, means piskei halachos. When you ask the average person learning gemara why he doesn't learn halacha he responds' I'm not planning on being a Rabbi'. Liheipuch! The 'average' person needs to learn halacha to stay out of gehinom, its onlythe Rabbis, or advadvanced students, who should be learning gemara in order to be meivin davar mitoch davar in order to pasken.

If you have access to Rav Soloveitchik's Community Covenant and Commitment, see letter 11. Written in 1955, its practically prophetic in its description of the post Lithuanian type Yeshiva system that will not have prepared the average person for a life of Torah observance for want of having learned anything practical but instead focused on the elite students and their interests. The Rambam also wrote the Yad to spare people from having to learn Gemara.

@user6591 I think there are several points that could be disputed in your comments, but at the end of the day גברא אגברא קרמית - I don't know why you think the sources I have quoted are invalid in the face of yours.

I often hear of these yeshiva bochrim who are adrift without a clue if pork is allowed or Shabbos is on Tuesday. I have never met any of them. I know some who aren't sure if they should follow the Chazon Ish or R' Aharon Kotler if draining from a ladle is borrer. But I wouldn't call that not being prepared for life. My chaveirim in Yeshiva all knew the basics of halacha, through osmosis, despite the "curse" of learning Gemara. They were only better off for it, because they appreciated the nuances of halacha.

I am sure there are Yeshivos where students don't take it seriously enough and end up ignorant. I don't think you would fix them by giving them Rabbi Bodner and Rabbi Forst sefarim to sit in front of. But if you walk into the Mir or Brisk, you won't find a big crowd of עמי הארץ. You will probably find a crowd much more educated than you are used to.

Its funny you should specify the yeshivos that I had in mind. I have alot of experience with them, we'll put it that way. The life cycle,in America at least, is learn in b.m. till 21. Still not knowing how to even find a given halacha in the shulchan aruch. Go to Israel, learn kodshim, i.e. more abstract and less relevant. Come back go to Lakewood learn the old yeshiva masechtas again till you are in your early thirties. If by then you are still in yeshiva you will start learning halacha, and everyone else in yeshiva will say its because you are 'burnt out'.

@user6591 You seem to be conflating the issues of "not having learned hilchos taaruves" with "not knowing what to do in my kitchen."

I happened to have been close with one of the 'biggest' rosh yeshivs as the world called him. By the end of his life he still ddidn't know if he could open his oven friday night when his rebbetzin forgot to shut the oven before shabbos, as she would usually do. He had to send his guest bachurim to find the other member of the hanhala that learnt halacha.

@user6591 That's a sad story, but certainly not the norm. I think that most 25 year olds in Kollel could answer that question.

@user6591 Unless I just happen to be friends exclusively with exceptional prodigies.

No. By pushing this learning lishma idea which means davka not to come out halacha limaaseh there is a roadblock to practical jewish life. These yeshivos do not allow halacha to be learned during sedder. Except for a fifteen minute or half hour mishna berurah sedder before real sedder.

Very sad story. In my head I pray to Hashem to save me from such bushos.

@user6591 Do these people also close their eyes whenever they are by a talmid chochom to make sure they don't see how he is noheg?

@user6591 Looking in a book is not the ideal way to learn halacha. If you think you only know if you can close the oven because of Artscroll's shabbos kitchen, you are very mistaken.

But theres also the underlying message. When a kid in high school says why do I have to learn this gemara the answer is so you can be a lamdan. Whereas if the focus would be on halacha and he asks why do I have to learn this the answer becomes much more acceptable.

@user6591 That depends on what he is learning. If you think that yevamos should be sealed off and never opened, then you can use that answer. But if you believe there are parts of Torah that should be learned because there is a mitzvah to learn and know דעת עליון, then that motivation won't always suffice.

Of course igs not just in the books. Thats the problem. It has to be society wide. The baal halacha gets kavod before the baal pilpul acc to the ramma in the name of the maharik. In the major yeshivos, its the opposite.

At the end of the day, I don't know what you want to show. I cited a Maharsha, and R' Moshe Feinstein (who I hope we can agree knew halacha). So you think they are wrong because you are upset at the system. Is there a point to continuing this discussion?

No we can end it:)

For future chat reference, to make a discussion easier to follow, let me show you something.

If you hover the mouse over my comment, a little arrow appears at the bottom right. If you click on that arrow, your next comment will show up as a response to my comment.

Then you can hover the mouse over a comment to see what it was a response to, and what was a response to it. And the user you are responding to will be sent a ping to know he has been addressed.

@user6591 ping in case you left the room before I wrote this ^^^

K thanks. Also one more point is the second Rashi in Bichukosai.