The Overlook Hotel

3:06 AM

0

Q: Writing "X, Y, and Z" vs "X and Y and Z."

Example: The forest was so dense I was practically swimming through it. A dark, murky ocean of shrubs, trees, and bamboo shoots. The forest was so dense I was practically swimming through it. A dark, murky ocean of shrubs and trees and bamboo shoots. Is the effect different? How so?

Stack Exchange

3:45 AM

0

Q: Where can I get a critique of my work?

It looks like critiques on this site are going to soon take a different form. We don't want to leave people high and dry, so having a list of places to get a general critique would be helpful. These sites can also do more than we ever could do in a Q&A format - sometimes a draft needs extended di...

discussion

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:30 PM

@KitFox happy Friday

KitFox

Thank you.

You as well.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I stayed up late last night reading shitty YA witch/demon fiction. I have no idea why.

KitFox

Ephemeral Rift used another one of my letters in his most recent Letters segment.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm not sure what Ephemeral Rift is, but I like the name. I named my blog "Eternal Ephemera"

KitFox

Ephemeron, I thought.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:31 PM

oh, maybe.

heh

sooooooo long since I blogged

I forgot its name!

KitFox

Ephemeral Rift is my favorite ASMRist.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

why did I choose ephemeron instead of ephemera? Because it had zero ghits.

KitFox

ghits? Google hits?

I thought you were the one who introduced me to E.R.

Maybe it was Matty.

The Zombie Apocalypse infirmary was the first one of his I saw.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I don't ASMR. it doesnt' really work on me.

KitFox

Yeah, but this guy is hilarious.

Face-painting by Batman.

You ever go hunting for marshmallows?

Stuff like that.

He's also pretty talented.

My husband thought the premises were funny, but he can't stand the triggers.

Hi, @IceBoy

Ice Boy

2:36 PM

@KitFox hi

there is a troll in the ell room

KitFox

Do you need a hand?

Ice Boy

nah

he/she stopped

thanks for the offer pal :-)

KitFox

kk

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So I just read this article in the Daily Mail regarding atheist summer camps in the UK. It's old (2009), but wow. The author of the article is so unaware of her inconsistencies. The article basically tries to mock atheist summer camps as useless or indoctrinating, and then subtly praises the values of Christian summer camps. facepalm

KitFox

Harmless fun!? Who would think such a thing about a place where they might teach you that you won't burn in hell for all eternity if you make a mistake?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:48 PM

It's amazing how some people just say any old thing when forced to confront something they are unfamiliar with or uncomfortable with.

> The question remains: why do atheists feel the need to resort to such high-profile tactics at all? After all, with campaigns, fundraising endeavours, a 'High Priest' in the form of Richard Dawkins and now holiday camps for children, aren't they simply turning into a parody of the organised religions they so sneer at?

This is a point not lost on the Church of England, which accuses Dawkins and his followers of aping religious traditions, in particular with regards to the children's camp.

'We would defend the right for anyone to set up an event like this, as long as the young people are h…

I never knew that "summer camp" was a "religious tradition".

KitFox

> Dawkins, author of The God Delusion, the atheists' 'bible', says: 'Camp Quest encourages children to think for themselves, sceptically and rationally.

Have I mentioned that I dislike Dawkins?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No. But considering he's a bit of a jerk, that's not surprising.

KitFox

And certainly don't consider any of his work as scripture or canon.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

lol. yeah, the "atheist bible".

Um. We don't have a bible.

KitFox

Because you can't have a faith without a scripture. Where's your authority if there's no book?

Guess that means you think Dawkins is God, since he wrote it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:50 PM

Finally! Someone told me what to think! I was so lost before.

KitFox

keeps trying to shove worldview into only schema she understands

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I admit that I read the first chapter of The God Delusion. It has some good points, like "atheism is like monotheism, only with one less god".

KitFox

See, no God, no need for Word of God. What's hard to understand about that?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Eh. I should probably read it, but I found the Selfish Gene to be weak and misleading on science and sexist.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox Sadly, lots of the big-name atheists are pretty sexist.

KitFox

So I wrote him off as a douchebaggy pop scientist who feels good talking down to hoi polloi.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:53 PM

Yeah. Well, he's still a pretty good arguer, and makes lots of valid points. But he's pretty douchebaggy sometimes.

KitFox

"new darling of the BBC" hahahaha

She admits that part of the process is encouraging children to think for themselves! HEAVEN FORFEND!

Doesn't she realize that children who think for themselves will grow up to become ADULTS who think for themselves!?

AND THEN WHERE WILL WE BE!?!!?

??

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> There is, however, one final irony. Camp Quest founder Edwin Kagin has a son who not only grew up to reject his father's philosophy, but has become a Born Again Christian minister. He has banned his own eight-year-old son from attending any of the Camp Quest gatherings.

A salutary lesson, perhaps, for any British parents wishing to impose their own views on their children.

How could she write that final sentence without exploding of irony overload?

KitFox

How dare I impose my views on my children? I am the worst parent ever for trying to instill my personal value system in my own offspring.

> Mr Jago also hopes his children will learn some 'basic logical philosophy and critical thinking skills - of which I have seen little evidence in their school work'.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yeah there are so many things wrong with that sentence I can hardly begin.

KitFox

Can you believe the nerve of that guy?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:01 PM

He's a nutcase. Call Children's Aid

KitFox

srsly

I can't maintain the sarcasm.

> 'There is no brainwashing. Those who don't want to hear about a loving, caring God can choose to go to an atheist camp if they wish.'

Well. Now they can.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yeah I was just going to post that one

"There is no brainwashing. If you don't want brainwashing, you can fuck off."

KitFox

Well, it's not necessarily brainwashing to hear about a loving, caring God. It's not brainwashing to hear about Peter Pan or Winnie-the-Pooh or Frodo either.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

mm-hm.

I guess if you present the "loving caring god" as a fictional character then it's exactly like "winnie the pooh"

KitFox

Well.

Yes.

I should be kinder. It's so hard for me to understand why there are people in the world who need that, who can't see the world except like that. It's probably just as hard for them to understand me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:08 PM

It's one thing to be nice kind to people who have religion. Most of my friends are religious.

It's another thing to tear up someone's awful logic in a newspaper article they wrote.

KitFox

I know, but I'm mocking and not listening or making a genuine attempt to understand.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's hard to listen when it makes no sense.

KitFox

I'm sure it makes sense if you look at it the right way.

Like, as a defense against devaluing/trashing her worldview.

Or a justification of her own parenting choices.

Or something. I don't know.

I'm just going to sit here and be all judgy.

It's people like that ...

etc etc

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I think the tone of the article can be explained by those things, but that doesn't excuse the hypocrisy and logical flaws.

I mean, sure, be defensive, be angry. But first, should you feel defensive? Maybe. Okay, next step. Present a well-reasoned argument.

Instead it's just rubbish that doesn't even withstand cursory examination.

It's howlingly bad.

RhysW

3:29 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Two very different types of thinking I would imagine. If you live a life predominantly based around faith then you only consider it from a faith based perspective. To withstand cursory examination you'd need to question your argument, your faith. To some people you just don't question faith

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RhysW It's not even that. The article isn't about faith, it's about camps.

RhysW

In some cases you could argue that being faithless is becoming a religion in itself :P

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RhysW You could argue that, but it'd be a bad argument.

RhysW

Depends, you could easily draw a lot of similarities between the behaviour

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The best case you could probably make is that atheists like to do things together that religious people also like to do together. But so what? That just proves that atheists are social, like other religious folk. It conflates religion and being social, which is fallacious.

You would be correct in pointing out that atheists are forming social groups, in part or wholly founded on the principle of atheism, but why would that be surprising, given that so many social groups in society are founded in part, or wholly on religion?

RhysW

3:36 PM

I think we should be avoiding telling anyone what to believe, especially children who are already so malleable to external views. Religion, or lack thereof, should be something someone decides for themselves, without having others peoples ideas thrust upon them. In my opinion anyway

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Parents should pass on their values to their children. The problem is when the parent's values are flawed, and the parent lacks the awareness of the flaws.

RhysW

I wouldn't say being religious is a flaw

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, I do. It's logically unsound.

It leads to magical thinking.

But hey, that's me.

If you believe religion is fine, and can find no problem with it, then isn't it your duty to pass it on to your children?

I mean, 1. your religious duty, which you must believe is correct, and 2. Isn't teaching children part of the job of a parent?

If you don't teach your children they will learn stuff elsewhere, and who knows what it will be.

RhysW

Teaching is most definitely part of being a parent. Instructing should not be

I think of it as the difference between teaching your child how to think for themselves and thinking for them

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, teaching your child how to think usually leads to atheism.

RhysW

3:41 PM

Is that speculation on your part? Or do you have something you can link that to?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, the global rise in atheism is correlated with higher education.

s/global/Western/, I guess

RhysW

I imagine there are multiple factors playing into that also, being that it's not a closed system. Let's not also ignore that the decline in religion and the incline in education could be totally unrelated. Correlation isn't always causation, as i'm sure you know

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

yes. But also based on my personal experience, and the countless articles I've read in the last 5 years on this topic, especially anecdotes about people who've become atheists, and how they did so, share a common theme: increased learning about science and religion led to abandonment of religion.

RhysW

That isn't to say I disagree with you, i'm just playing devils advocate here mostly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Logical inconsistencies in religious doctrines lead people to study, and when they do, they find that the religion doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

If you take the barest, most basic logical position, that you know nothing, and then start from there, you have to dismiss every holy book as unreliable. And once it's gone, the house of cards collapses.

RhysW

3:46 PM

There is sort of a social stigma to it too that says science and religion are somehow at odds, that one directly implies there cannot be the other. When in reality there is nothing to say a higher being did not create the universe with all of the complex rules that scientific advancements are uncovering.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

When you understand politics and history, and neuroscience and cosmology and biology, even only superficially, you see that the far better explanation is that religion is bunk and the world is completely natural.

@RhysW Yes, but the thing is, there is nothing to say that a higher being DID do that.

Why should we believe that a being did all of this, when the universe is exactly as you'd expect it to be if it were a wholly natural process?

There's no evidence that a giant didn't build my house in his workshop, then set it down on my property all in one piece, but why should I believe that?

RhysW

Exactly, that's sort of where I was heading I guess. We still don't have all the facts and we are still at odds even inside the scientific community over how it all started. I see no reason to tell people it definitely wasn't X when we don't actually know for certain

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I imagine the people who actually built your house would be the evidence against the giant

We don't have an equivalent set of universe builders who we can ask for verification though

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RhysW The purest logical position is that we can't say with absolute certainty that it wasn't a god who created everything. But so what? we also can't say, with absolute certainty, that the world even exists at all, and that we're not just a simulation in a really big computer somewhere.

RhysW

Exactly, we are on the same page, I'm just choosing to use that uncertainty as a way of saying 'I can't prove you are wrong so you are free to make up your own damn mind' be it religious or not. If that makes sense?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

What we can say is that there is no evidence FOR a god, and similarly there is no evidence for a leprechaun creating the universe, and there is no evidence for a computer simulation, and there is no evidence for a flying spaghetti monster, and there is no reason to believe that there should be one of those.

@RhysW It makes sense, but I feel it's a logically weak position.

Just because you can't, logically, reach 100% certainty doesn't mean you haven't reached, say, 99.999% certainty and can call it a day.

RhysW

3:51 PM

Of course, but we haven't reached even close to that value either

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'd say we have.

Furthermore, I'd say that we are so certain that the universe is natural, that anyone who says otherwise needs to provide even a shred of proof before their claims merit ANY consideration whatsoever.

You want me to believe my house was made by a giant? Fine. Show me even a single tiny bit of evidence.

I don't know the builders or even the year it was built. It will take research to find all of that. I dont' have the answers. But the giant story ranks as so unlikely as to be laughable; therefore before it deserves my consideration I require evidence.

RhysW

I think we are just going round in circles now, so probably best to leave it here. Though as always its always fun to see how other people see the world

I'd probably have more to say if I were religious but as i'm not there's probably so many sides that I'm missing out!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

What I didn't like about the camp article, which started all of this, was that the author was so snide and mocking, and yet, her own position was indefensible. Equating religion and being social, false. Laughing at the atheist whose son became a born-again Christian, mocking them for "indoctrinating" their kids while ignoring the fact that teaching religion is also indoctrination, ridiculous.

RhysW

yeah basically the argument fell apart when she was pushing for exactly the same things she supposedly against, just from the other side

I don't like how they do X for Y so I will do exactly the same thing to combat it

I imagine she also built her house upon sand

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So anyway, as a parent I will tell my kids that the stuff in the bible isn't true. Most of it is verifiably false anyway, as a historical document. Creation? false. Flood? false. Exodus from egypt? false. Sun standing still over Jericho, false. Isrealite tribes destroying cities? false. So many falsehoods.

RhysW

4:00 PM

Of course you are free to do that. Though I'm curious how you would choose to react if your children do decide that religion is the right choice for them?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

When you ignore the Bible as a source of history, and then look at what its "message" supposedly is, you are then appalled. God murdering innocent children in Egypt? God ordering the genocides of multiple peoples? God demanding human sacrifice? God obsessing over sex constantly? God torturing Job for no reason? God sending his only son, who is also himself, to die in a human sacrifice to atone for the sin of some non-existant ancient ancestor who God was too busy to supervise?

@RhysW I would be deeply saddened. But it will be their choice. In the meantime I will simply point out logical problems in religion, and teach them about history and politics and biology and neuroscience and logic. Hopefully they'll come around.

RhysW

Fair enough I guess. Can I ask what you do for a living? Curiosity more than anything, you can of course tell me to mind my own :P

Software development

Snap

snap?

4:06 PM

As in, i do that too, snap? like the card game?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

ah.

I come to writers though to fantasize about writing novels. Maybe someday.

RhysW

...snap

last one i swear

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

heh

RhysW

Right, time for me to catch up on some films, cya around!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

cya

Ice Boy

4:10 PM

later

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Hm, do I start too many sentences with "Well"?

I read a book once, by a Chinese author, about a Chinese family at the turn of the century in China. I swear, every line of dialogue started with "well,"

Stack Exchange

6:39 PM

0

Q: How to refer to magnetism in old ages?

I need to make a character, who is agnostic of electricity, electromagnetic fields, and any modern age theories, refer to electromagnetic phenomena. Ancient cultures, like greeks, chinese, were somewhat aware of electricity and magnetism. Few examples are: thunder and yellow amber, which has an ...

science

0

Q: What are some rich but respectful ways to describe various skin colors?

Say I have a book with people of varying skin tones: a boy with British/Germanic background, a girl with Indian parents in the middle point of Indian skin tones, a girl with a Germanic background mother and a Turkish father, and an African-American boy. What are some good words to use to descri...

fiction description vocabulary young-adult

KitFox

Well, that was a pretty good presentation.

Also, my husband and I are having dinner with the ex-gf and her new beau tonight. I am such an idiot for thinking this is a good idea.

Monica Cellio

Hey all, a question came up on WorldBuilding's meta about the boundary between that site and this one, so sharing my answer here in case any of y'all want to weigh in or anything:

1

A: Worldbuilding vesrus Writers?

Questions about specific plotting are off-topic on Writers as "what should I write?" questions. Here's the distinction from the meta overview: Generating Plot Ideas: Asking to brainstorm ideas tailor-made for your particular story is off-topic; that’s too specific to your own work. But ...

Stack Exchange

7:02 PM

0

Q: Writing a short story with a secret code

I want to write a fictional short story where part 2 is embedded in part 1. Has anyone heard of this or tried this? Any ideas of resources would be greatly appreciated.

short-story short-fiction

0

Q: How do I write my own character sketch?

I have to write a character sketch, and I have to pick an object (example: vase, key, dress, ect.) to base the character on. So the object has to be important, but my professor doesn't want it to be a plot device. Is a character sketch like a mini story? I'm really really confused! I looked at ch...

fiction creative-writing characters

Stack Exchange

8:01 PM

0

Q: Writing is it the plot, subplot or backstory

My question is why do most books, videos and books on creative writing refer to the protagonist as the hero and the antagonist as the villain? Eg: thrillers, action or crime stories. I am writing a novel which doesn't have either, it's historical fiction genre with a current day romance. In fact...

plot

RhysW

11:11 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I have a similar problem but with 'So'

BESW

11:31 PM

The Black Glove and The Minister of Chance still need backers.

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