@NeilFein thanks. And now it has a good answer - yay!

Heya @KitFox, you told me to ping you if I hadn't heard anything from you after awhile.

@Lord_Gareth Oh yes! Thank you. I will read more this morning.

@NeilFein So for Wordpress, I'd tag my SE posts?

@Lord_Gareth I like the imagery in the second chapter. You do a good job treading the fine line between interesting description and overly ornate padding that rankles of Salvatore.

Here is my offering.

There is this passage:

> No point, Nimma reflected, in going to another world unprepared...

My feeling of Nimma's character suggests that she is the type simply to wear her gear wherever she goes. She is a warrior. Her weapons are an extension of her being.

So it is odd to me that she would feel the need to justify her equipment.

I like that Nimma relishes the desperation around her, and the exchange between her and the other Erinyes is solid.

I am a little confused about the fact that Adarus are stronger than Erinyes, and she is looking forward to tearing them apart. I'd like to little more there about why it is appealing to her. Is Nimma stronger than the garden-variety Erinyes? Does she like the challenge of a stronger foe? Does she find them disgusting and worthy of annihilation? Or does she just like to get her hands dirty?

Also, in the battle, she uses the word "Tanar'ri" in reference to the Adaru. I guess this is a different name for the same thing? Is it an insult, or just an alternative?

The only other thing is the end part with the sword. She leaves the sword, but I'm not clear on why. It took me a couple of readings to figure that it must be that the rat will gnaw through the intestines and then the demon will fall on the sword? But the setup makes that hard to follow.

That's all I can do for now. I have to get to work. Remind me about Chapter Three later.

@KitFox Argh, my apologies again! Some of the stuff you've mentioned is setting-specific, which I'll detail here in a moment, and some of it is in point of fact just my own failure to describe or elaborate correctly

@KitFox So since this is essentially set "in" the Planescape setting for D&D (note the story tags on the first chapter), some quick terminology. A devil is a sub-type of fiend (evil beings arising from the Lower Planes) aligned with the forces of Law and Evil. Nimma is a Devil, specifically an Erinyes of the Baatezu (the dominant "race" of devils, composed of several unique types that share common traits)

The Baatezu have warred against the Tanar'ri since before the inciting event that made the Baatezu a separate extraplanar species; Tanar'ri are a race of demon (fiends aligned with the powers of Chaos and Evil) that are, once again, a grouping of unique species that share common traits. The Baatezu and Tanar'ri's conflict, known as the Blood War, has defined and annihilated entire worlds as both sides jockey for position

The implication is indeed that Nimma is more than a standard Erinyes, who are generally speaking a dime a dozen to the point where most of them (admittedly Nimma included) don't even have a unique appearance to call their own. The fact that Nimma possesses non-standard equipment (most have the rope she used and a bow, which she lacks) is a hint to begin with; the Adaru recognizing her was meant to clinch it

So the Adaru ought to have recognized her immediately, since she was sporting a sword instead of a bow?

Ought to have, but really didn't. His mistake, and a fatal one.

Hmm. Will that be apparent to fans, that Nimma's sword sets her apart?

Just about any devil (but especially a Baatezu) relishes the chance to kill, torture, or dominate a demon. Nimma has a specific axe to grind in addition to this.

I can see that it is easy for me to confuse devils and demons, since it is essentially the same thing in my head.

Nimma's equipment sets her apart and that should be evident to fans of the setting, yes. An Erinyes is normally unarmored, having only her bow, arrows, and rope - anything further indicates, at barest minimum, a skilled and capable agent worth investing resources into. Baator (Hell; Nimma's home) has a strict heirarchy that rewards merit in the most conservative fashion possible while punishing failure with hideous penalties

So to merit even the most basic of materials that they don't manifest with full-grown, a devil must above all other things be exceptional

Which is also why leaving her things in Sigil could have been an option; if Nimma dies on this trek, all of her stuff gets dumped on the mortal plane while she re-forms in Hell

Then it should have been painfully obvious to the Adaru. She's wearing armor after all.

Yeah, it should have been. It wasn't. Demons are not famed for their intelligence

They are famed for being bloodthirsty bullies

Hmm.

A devil would have approached the situation with more caution. An older Adaru might have as well

Maybe he could be a little more bullying, like mocking her for her badges of merit?

A good idea!

He'd probably feel slimier that way too.

And cocky. And stupid.

(and yes, the idea is that the Adaru will fall upon the blade. In a later chapter it's revealed that the weapon returns to Nimma's hand at her command)

Let me see what I found confusing there.

One thing I intend on making clear as the story continues is that Nimma's hatred of demons goes above and beyond that of the rest of her race. She loathes them above all other beings, irrationally, sometimes to the point of disregarding her own safety. She would hurt herself to get the chance to inflict pain on a Tanar'ri

Why is that?

And I think you could work some more of that into her internal reflection upon learning that there was an Adaru guarding the portal.

Nimma, unlike many Erinyes, didn't fall with the rest of the Baatezu; she fell much later, on a mission to retrieve important artifacts from a demon prince. He captured her, and held her for century upon century until she broke, inside, and turned to evil - but not, as he'd hoped, to chaos. She deceived him, slaughtered his servants while he was away, forged their hides and teeth into her armor and then ambushed him when he returned to his silent kingdom

Her sword is made from his bones

Oh, about the disemboweling part. So this is the order: She pulls out intestines. She wedges the sword. She hoists the demon over a sign. She puts a rat on the demon's intestines.

Correct

So it confused me because I didn't realize the sword positioning was important until I re-read it. Also, it sounds like the sign is in the way.

Nah, the sign is just there to hoist with, but that does mean I should edit that part for clarity

(And Nimma, tainted by evil in fighting demons, was cast into Hell to join the Baatezu who, notably, fell for the exact same reason)

@Lord_Gareth Yeah, I know. That's why I mentioned it.

It's creative, but it isn't immediately clear what's going on.

Checks to see what Chapter Three was about

Ah yes, you get to meet the other half of this dance soon

Ms. Kestrel of Asheholm, Duchess of the Last Light. A human ^_^

On Cafdan's Way, where kestrels call.

?

Susan Cooper. The Grey King.

Afraid I've never read the lady. Perhaps I should make a note to.

If you like juvenile fiction with some strong Celtic mythology/Arthurian overtones.

Hrm.

Themes, I should say. Not overtones.

You'll recognize it as something that JK Rowling ripped off.

But yeah, I'll edit those parts you've mentioned and try to expand on the characterization aspects. I sometimes forget, when striving for minimalism, that I still need to actually say some things for my readers to understand them at all.

OK not really. But the protagonist is a twelve-year-old British boy.

@Lord_Gareth Oh, I didn't know you were trying to be minimalist.

I always try to be minimalist; I'm a big Less Is More guy

Which is part of the reason that when Robert Jordan died, I called up all of my friends that read that damn series and gave them a huge "WHAT DID I TELL YOU?"

Uh. Sorry. I don't understand that.

I used to joke that he took so long to write his stories, mostly because he went into utterly extraneous detail, that he'd die before he was done.

Then he did.

Oh, I get it.

I haven't read any, but I should have guessed, based on other conversations.

Likewise, when speaking about The Lord of the Rings I'm always careful to qualify - accurately - that I loved the story

I just wish Tolkein would have stopped with everything else long enough to tell it

hee hee

So yeah, I try to strive for elegance in wording and description. I still have problems with taking it too far, though

I forget to mention details that are important

That's why you have beta readers.

So long as you don't find me too annoying.

Nah, very helpful

I think generally speaking your writing is good. You are focused and express yourself coherently. You have some concept of what your story is.

That puts you pretty far ahead of most of the um...other non-professional work that I read.

Most of what I can offer you is advice on the missing details.

And that seems to be really all you need.

You can go ahead and say what you wanted to say, which would be: "Generic Fantasy World Fanfic Writers"

Which, considering that most fantasy authors are wretched

Let's just make that "Fanfic Writers"

The fanfiction gets....interesting

I'll agree that fanfiction in general tends to be bad, yes. I figured I'd screw around in Planescape because it's well-known to me (a plus) but infinite in scope (easy to avoid canon characters)

And I do mean infinite in scope

Well, there are some significant advantages to writing fanfic.

It's just that most fanfic writers tend to overlook these.

And honestly, most of the named characters in Planescape either A. live in Sigil (story not staying there) or B. are essentially setting pieces that happen to be characters rather than dynamic protagonist material

Yes, those would be some of the advantages. ;-)

You get a built-in universe and character types to work with, and certain rules, so you don't have to invent this stuff.

Almost nothing irritates me more than fanfic with canon characters unless the thought experiment results in something very, very different from canon.

But many people seem to want to use existing characters and situations and just pretty much have weird and/or kinky shit worked in.

Featuring themselves as some kind of rule-breaking awesome character who gets to have a romance and/or sex with everyone.

Oi, yeah, that one's terrible

I hate that. Hate it.

I also get annoyed with, "Just like before, but [Character] is [Other Gender]"

If you are going to write fanfic, don't break the universe's rules.

@Lord_Gareth Yes. Yes. Argh.

You know what though, I can in some senses forgive fanfic writers for this kind of thing. Internal consistency is a learned talent. What gets me is when published authors pull that shit.

Case in point: Breaking Dawn

Actually, that whole series offends me to begin with

But my god, Meyer found a way to make it worse

I suppose, though, that it might be my ambitions as an aspiring writer causing me to grind my teeth at the BS that manages to get published.

Have you experienced that feeling, @KitFox?

Um. Yeah.

I never read any of the Twilight series.

But I figure I can do better than a lot of crap out there.

Of course, I have to write to accomplish that.

Look me in the metaphorical eyes, @KitFox, and hear something that will strain your faith in humanity: Breaking Dawn broke every rule Meyer established for her own world, wasted half of the book with crap wholly unrelated to the plot, managed to tackle morally complex problems in the Platonically worst ways you could possibly address them without going Full Hitler and then ended with child grooming

It was so bad that half of the fans of the series rage quit over it

But how did you feel about it really? I mean, don't hold back.

Oh please, that's barely tapping into the endless well of blazing hate that I have for Meyer and all of her work, for her despicable behavior as an author and her inexcusable behavior as a human being, for the undeserved popularity of her work and her total immaturity

With the understanding that the language I want to use to express my utter and complete contempt for this she-witch is much stronger than Stackexchange prefers.

giggles

I can't remember if I enticed you to read anything of mine?

Oh, oh, and the last thing about chapter two: "...the Erinyes walked towards the gate that would take her to Norvel, and her true love." Did we know that bit yet?

Oh, right. That's in the bet.

It is indeed in the bet

You're sure you don't want that to be a surprise?

Dead certain

The plot exposition is sufficiently subtle in Chapter Three, but for this: "A Duchess, then? I recognize the battle cry." This seems...I don't know. Blatant. Maybe "A Duchess from your battle cry." or something like "You might scatter weaker minds, but not even a Duchess can threaten me."

...Why that suggestion?

Um. Because it incorporates his impression of the Duchy with his belief in his own strength.

Aaaah, alright

Yeah, that's...that's a great idea

(I should really work on chapter five oh god I lost the draft >.<)

Also, is Kestrel the type to mercy-kill the dying woman? Given her position at the end of the first series of strikes, I expected her to whisper an invocation and then kill her.

But she moves to attack the demon instead.

Kestrel would like to kill the dying woman but it would not be a good idea. Chapter five is going to explain, but Kestrel's blade has a similar property to Nimma's; it attacks body and soul at the same time

Against demons and other beings whose bodies are their souls, the blade is indispensable for making sure they actually die instead of just vanish back into the black pit that spawned them

Oh, like a soulreaver.

But against mortals that's sort of a Don't Do That idea, yeah

Nimma wouldn't care, but Nimma is a horrible person

She has no other weapons? She must have anticipated that there would need to be that kind of killing.

Kestrel's a bit of a specialist, yes. The Duchy of the Last Light specializes in correcting imbalances between life and death (also chapter five exposition), usually by putting down the undead, demonic (or devilish) cults, and other threats to the universal balance of energies

Almost all of the things she faces have issues with being difficult to kill, so she's invested in a weapon that saves valuable time and, thus, innocent lives

Seems like she ought to have an athame or kris or just a simple dagger that would alleviate suffering. But maybe I am attributing too much goodness to her.

Kestrel mostly doesn't encounter things of this sort; full-scale demonic invasions are one of those things you try to keep rare, you know? But fret not, I've been considering this already

I like the killing by the way. I can sense her speed and balance in the descriptions.

Chapter five, aside from being some world/plot exposition, is a journey on Kestrel and Nimma's part to seek advice and resources from one of Kestrel's ancestors

The blindfold bothers me. Shall I elaborate?

Feel free to

I don't understand why she is wearing it when she encounters the Captain, other than to make him ask the question.

Is this normal attire for Duchesses?

The blindfold specifically is not. She's gotten into the habit of wearing it all the time; its purpose is chiefly defensive. The blindfold (a Blindfold of True Darkness) lets her see despite obstacles such as darkness, invisible opponents, or even blindness - much the same way dragons see in their D&D depictions

Oh, so it has special properties.

Since it's indispensable for detecting invisible, stealthy, and otherwise hidden enemies, Kestrel wears is almost all of the time

That makes sense.

Partially this is a practical concern, and partially it's a shout-out to D&D /players/

Whose characters are often found in delicate social situations wearing full plate armor out of a sense of - you guessed it - general paranoia

Hahaha

Oh and is this bit "...and my sister has been recognized by my father with a minimum of fuss." necessary? Seems a little out of place.

Referencing that she doesn't hold title over her father's lands

The Duchy of the Last Light (more chapter five, I really need to freaking write this) is not a political entity; the title is symbolic, not literal

"You can call my sister 'princess.' I'm here for the demon."

@Lord_Gareth Oh I figured that.

Maybe something to convey her impression of title and landholding.

For instance.

How does she feel about her calling, and giving up her rank?

I'd guess she finds court matters boring and unimportant.

That's...complicated. Kestrel's family is plagued by the ancestor she's going to visit

So it was Kestrel or her sister that was going to do it either way. Kestrel took up the mantle to spare her sister the trouble

She's grown into her new role with maturity

So it is simply a matter of duty for her?

No pride? No arrogance?

I need to get lunch. bbl

Duty was why Kestrel accepted the obligation, yes. In fulfilling it, she came to find other reasons. What Kestrel does is not pretty, but it is necessary, and she does it to help others, to keep her world safe, to preserve the appropriate balance of creation and destruction, and because she takes pride in using what she has learned.

Kestrel is basically a good person with a really shitty job

So duty and a sense of pride in a specialized skillset executed to its fullest.

Indeed.

OK.

What else can I offer?

Wait, the woman was kept alive only by magic. When the demon was killed, then she would have been released?

Sadly no. Magic in D&D is like an STD; you can shoot the hooker that infected you, but you still have herpes

The spell will run its course, eventually

Oh. Hmm. I don't remember that.

It's been ages since I played though.

Almost twenty years.

Maybe actually twenty years.

Ouch.

Spells in D&D have durations independent of their casters. It is true that in some cases magic will expire upon the death of the victim since a lack of life makes them unsuitable for the spell

Such as, for example, a spell of bodily growth

How gross is Chapter Four? I am eating lunch.

Lemme look real quick

I remember there's some priests nailed to walls but I didn't go into a lot of detail and they're dead-dead

Well. Um. Maybe I'll wait all the same.

The demon ought to die after Nimma starts looking at the portal though. IMO. To 1. remind us where we left off, and 2. make it seem like more time has passed.

When we leave off Ch. 2, she's walking to the portal. So she ought to have time to study it before the demon falls on the sword.

Ick. Really. I should be eating lunch. I'll come back in oh, an hour or so.

'Kay, there's some descriptions of horrible smells and the like

Plus dead people

@KitFox Yeah. You can do an RSS feed that

that's limited to a single keyword. Anything I post on my site tagged stackexchange now feeds into this room, it's pretty cool.

So @KitFox, wanted to ask - with only this first impression to go on, what would you think of Kestrel?

Wow! I missed so much in few days

I think, I need to be really proactive to catch up with everyone.

@Lord_Gareth She is law-abiding. She exercises her duties with precision and care, in part because she recognizes the inherent necessity of making sure there are no loose ends. She would pass the test of the gom jabbar.

She is not stupid. She is not ruled by emotion.

She is cunning without crafty.

> ...stalking the tieflings that had fled from her without hurry.

I don't think you can flee without hurry.

So maybe "unhurriedly stalking the tieflings that had fled from her."

So. Chapter Four. The switching viewpoints works well. The pacing is good, except for the ending.

I am a little put off that Kestrel thinks about being careful right before she's not careful.

Also, when Nimma comes through the portal, everybody stops. I rather thought Kestrel's training would have caused her to shift tactics rather than stop altogether.

Because what she would have seen was a devil posing as a demon, and she would have known that the devil would attack the demons and not her, and she would have taken advantage of the devil's distraction.

Then Kestrel moves from defensive to 'trusting' stance, but it happens as she asks Nimma how she can trust her. That seems out of order.

But I don't know about devils. Do they never lie or something?

Then the timing seems too fast on the kiss lead-in.

hey guys which book you are discussing?

Lord Gareth's work-in-progress.

ok

I feel like Nimma should be a little more teasing, or even taunting, and require a mutual exchange (or something) to seal the oath. And I don't have a clear picture of how Kestrel feels about devils.

You mention that she has the thrill of the taboo there, but it isn't obvious that it is a taboo thing to kiss devils.

Particularly because she shrugs off the request for the kiss like it's no big deal, but then she's all 'oh, gasp.'

And Nimma is surprised by her reaction to Kestrel, but it is hard to say why. Just because she's human? Does the devil often crave kisses? Or does she have a sudden, inexplicable desire to do something that she's never even thought of before?

I am not sure what her sense of triumph comes from.

Has she realized that Kestrel is her true love?

Hi Guys, I wrote another post yesterday. If any of you have time, can he/she please check my post and provide their feedback on content and writing style, list out the grammatical mistakes, and suggest how to improve from here.

This is the link to my post lit-eve.blogspot.in/2013/03/divine-manifestation.html

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